Changes in the GAA - super thread

Farawayhome · 18-06-2019 04:40PM

Is this forum a reflection of Dublin supporters attitudes in general? If so, they seem to have gone from some vain attempts to deny the amount of money they get to admitting that they get far more than everyone else but they don't care. Sad to see no sense of fairness amongst them. It does reflect the attitude of the Dublin county board chief executive. The strength of Gaelic Games doesn't come into their thinking. It's all about gaining success in all grades and codes, they don't care if that success is bought.
What they have to realise is that the rest of us can't let that continue. The strength of Gaelic Games in all counties is what matters and we need to wake the GAA up to it. It won't happen under the Dublin president but the first thing that must happen under the next president is that the funding gets drastically cut in Dublin and spread around. I'm of the opinion that Dublin should be split into 4, others say 2 but one thing is for sure, change is needed. Then structures in all counties need to be improved. They need the resources obviously but also the personnel put in place to ensure the correct spending of these resources.
This is exactly what happened in Dublin. Highly paid development managers were hired to oversee the huge financial investment into their structures. The blueprint is there for all counties, of course, it's what should have happened back in 2005 but we can do it now. This is vital for the future of Gaelic Games, with proper investment, we should have a huge number of teams competing for titles in just a few years. Let's not forget that this was the way it was in the recent past. 21 different counties have won provincial championships since 1992. Let's start working on this, let's fight for fair play.

ToBeFrank123 · 18-06-2019 05:00PM

With substantially more funding, the likes of Clare, Tipperary and Limerick could be competing for and winning Munster Championships 10 years from now. Sligo has fallen back so they also need a bit of help in Connacht. The events of last weekend prove there's life yet in the Connacht Championship and also Ulster, even if Munster isn't as competitive as it once was. Leinster is the outlier and the main reason some are calling for the abolishment of the provincials, tiered championships, and the like.

Massively increasing GDF funds to less successful counties is the answer, not giving millions more to Dublin who are currently the most successful, a move which in turn has killed the Leinster championship and is doing the same to Sam Maguire.

If you don't balance the funding, the AI will die a death, and become a Mickey Mouse competition, although it has become that now.

blanch152 · 18-06-2019 05:16PM

Farawayhome wrote: »

Is this forum a reflection of Dublin supporters attitudes in general? If so, they seem to have gone from some vain attempts to deny the amount of money they get to admitting that they get far more than everyone else but they don't care. Sad to see no sense of fairness amongst them. It does reflect the attitude of the Dublin county board chief executive. The strength of Gaelic Games doesn't come into their thinking. It's all about gaining success in all grades and codes, they don't care if that success is bought.
What they have to realise is that the rest of us can't let that continue. The strength of Gaelic Games in all counties is what matters and we need to wake the GAA up to it. It won't happen under the Dublin president but the first thing that must happen under the next president is that the funding gets drastically cut in Dublin and spread around. I'm of the opinion that Dublin should be split into 4, others say 2 but one thing is for sure, change is needed. Then structures in all counties need to be improved. They need the resources obviously but also the personnel put in place to ensure the correct spending of these resources.
This is exactly what happened in Dublin. Highly paid development managers were hired to oversee the huge financial investment into their structures. The blueprint is there for all counties, of course, it's what should have happened back in 2005 but we can do it now. This is vital for the future of Gaelic Games, with proper investment, we should have a huge number of teams competing for titles in just a few years. Let's not forget that this was the way it was in the recent past. 21 different counties have won provincial championships since 1992. Let's start working on this, let's fight for fair play.

If you are going to criticise the arguments made by other posters, address the arguments rather than "they seem to have gone from some vain attempts to deny the amount of money they get to admitting that they get far more than everyone else but they don't care".

Nobody appears to have said anything like that. What has been said are the following points:

- Splitting Dublin by itself doesn't increase the competitiveness of the competition in any sensible way, other than making Kerry even more likely to win All-Irelands because of a lopsided Munster Championship

- Therefore, if splitting Dublin is on the agenda, a complete restructure of the Championship and the compulsory amalgamation of counties must also be on the table if competitiveness is to be improved. Otherwise, Mayo will only ever win a fake All-Ireland if Dublin is split in four.

- Dublin had a coherent plan to raise juvenile participation, and got funding for that. It was widely available and publicised at the time. It has worked. Children of all ages, sizes and gender now get the opportunity to play their native games. As a result, funding has tapered off as the initiative has begun to become self-sustaining.

- It has been claimed that other counties have such plans, but none have been seen or produced. Instead we get vanity projects in other counties (e.g. development centres in Kerry) or we get huge investment in the senior team (e.g. Mayo) at the expense of juvenile participation.

- Dublin will always get more money, because there are more children in Dublin

- Dublin deserve huge kudos for the way that they have increased interest and participation in our games.

- There is a once-in-a-lifetime generation of great players in Dublin, from Cluxton to Cooper and Kilkenny to McCaffrey.

If you would actually address some of these points, and acknowledge the truth, the discussion might be able to move forward.

blanch152 · 18-06-2019 05:21PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

With substantially more funding, the likes of Clare, Tipperary and Limerick could be competing for and winning Munster Championships 10 years from now. Sligo has fallen back so they also need a bit of help in Connacht. The events of last weekend prove there's life yet in the Connacht Championship and also Ulster, even if Munster isn't as competitive as it once was. Leinster is the outlier and the main reason some are calling for the abolishment of the provincials, tiered championships, and the like.

Massively increasing GDF funds to less successful counties is the answer, not giving millions more to Dublin who are currently the most successful, a move which in turn has killed the Leinster championship and is doing the same to Sam Maguire.

If you don't balance the funding, the AI will die a death, and become a Mickey Mouse competition, although it has become that now.

When was the Munster Championship competitive?

Back in 1979, Kerry had to play three matches to win the All-Ireland.

Since 1935, 84 years ago, only once - Clare in 1992 - has the Munster Championship been won by anyone other than Kerry or Cork.

In the same time-period ten teams have won the Leinster Football Championship.

Finally, increasing GDF funding to smaller counties will make no difference if there are not enough kids in the population, unless you are suggesting a variation on the Mayo theme of all the money being spent on the senior team?

OldMrBrennan83 · 18-06-2019 05:24PM

blanch152 wrote: »

- Dublin had a coherent plan to raise juvenile participation, and got funding for that. It was widely available and publicised at the time. It has worked. Children of all ages, sizes and gender now get the opportunity to play their native games. As a result, funding has tapered off as the initiative has begun to become self-sustaining.

This is the big one. The bitters hate hearing it but so many countries have been shown they won't make any use of funding.
Talking about money just in relation to one team is the laziest argument there is.

ToBeFrank123 · 18-06-2019 05:27PM

blanch152 wrote: »

When was the Munster Championship competitive?

Back in 1979, Kerry had to play three matches to win the All-Ireland.

Since 1935, 84 years ago, only once - Clare in 1992 - has the Munster Championship been won by anyone other than Kerry or Cork.

In the same time-period ten teams have won the Leinster Football Championship.

Finally, increasing GDF funding to smaller counties will make no difference if there are not enough kids in the population, unless you are suggesting a variation on the Mayo theme of all the money being spent on the senior team?

It really makes no odds if you play 3 or 8 games to win an AI, and in fact for teams with more resources like Dublin, more games favours them more. Smaller counties cannot compete with Dublin's strength in depth. Which is why the Super8s and more games favour Dublin.

And if you play less games, you risk being caught cold.

Galway hurlers could win AIs up to recently by playing 2 games, and 1 of them was usually against Antrim or Down hurlers. But they were usually caught cold in AI finals by teams who went through competitive provincial championships.

We've seen with money and resources directed in the right way, it can bring counties up. Limerick is hardly a county with a small population and is an ideal candidate for GDF funding as their are many rival sports in the county such as rugby. Unfortunately they didn't get the special treatment Dublin got, because Bertie wasn't from Limerick!

ToBeFrank123 · 18-06-2019 05:31PM

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

This is the big one. The bitters hate hearing it but so many countries have been shown they won't make any use of funding.
Talking about money just in relation to one team is the laziest argument there is.

Mr Brennan, if every county received GDF on the scale of Dublin, then we could debate who wasted what. But they didn't.

Its like saying to a begger they wasted their crumbs, while someone else at a feast had a great time.

And it is a feast from the GAA to Dublin, and crumbs from the table for the rest.

Which is why serious GAA fans now view the sport as a joke.

blanch152 · 18-06-2019 05:32PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

It really makes no odds if you play 3 or 8 games to win an AI, and in fact for teams with more resources like Dublin, more games favours them more. Smaller counties cannot compete with Dublin's strength in depth. Which is why the Super8s and more games favour Dublin.

And if you play less games, you risk being caught cold.

Galway hurlers could win AIs up to recently by playing 2 games, and 1 of them was usually against Antrim or Down hurlers. But they were usually caught cold in AI finals by teams who went through competitive provincial championships.

We've seen with money and resources directed in the right way, it can bring counties up. Limerick is hardly a county with a small population and is an ideal candidate for GDF funding as their are many rival sports in the county such as rugby. Unfortunately they didn't get the special treatment Dublin got, because Bertie wasn't from Limerick!

You said Munster used to be competitive, the evidence says otherwise. We should just leave it there.

Farawayhome · 18-06-2019 05:40PM

blanch152 wrote: »

If you are going to criticise the arguments made by other posters, address the arguments rather than "they seem to have gone from some vain attempts to deny the amount of money they get to admitting that they get far more than everyone else but they don't care".

Nobody appears to have said anything like that. What has been said are the following points:

- Splitting Dublin by itself doesn't increase the competitiveness of the competition in any sensible way, other than making Kerry even more likely to win All-Irelands because of a lopsided Munster Championship

- Therefore, if splitting Dublin is on the agenda, a complete restructure of the Championship and the compulsory amalgamation of counties must also be on the table if competitiveness is to be improved. Otherwise, Mayo will only ever win a fake All-Ireland if Dublin is split in four.

- Dublin had a coherent plan to raise juvenile participation, and got funding for that. It was widely available and publicised at the time. It has worked. Children of all ages, sizes and gender now get the opportunity to play their native games. As a result, funding has tapered off as the initiative has begun to become self-sustaining.

- It has been claimed that other counties have such plans, but none have been seen or produced. Instead we get vanity projects in other counties (e.g. development centres in Kerry) or we get huge investment in the senior team (e.g. Mayo) at the expense of juvenile participation.

- Dublin will always get more money, because there are more children in Dublin

- Dublin deserve huge kudos for the way that they have increased interest and participation in our games.

- There is a once-in-a-lifetime generation of great players in Dublin, from Cluxton to Cooper and Kilkenny to McCaffrey.

If you would actually address some of these points, and acknowledge the truth, the discussion might be able to move forward.

Here's a few quotes for you, the attitude of yes we're competing unfairly but we don't care confirmed:

dunnerc wrote: »

Guess what ! we don't care

dunnerc wrote: »

Cant see anything wrong here

Jaden wrote: »

If I had my way, the DCB would get more funding to continue this work.

- Splitting Dublin by itself doesn't increase the competitiveness of the competition in any sensible way, other than making Kerry even more likely to win All-Irelands because of a lopsided Munster Championship

That's why we must invest in all other counties fairly.

- Therefore, if splitting Dublin is on the agenda, a complete restructure of the Championship and the compulsory amalgamation of counties must also be on the table if competitiveness is to be improved. Otherwise, Mayo will only ever win a fake All-Ireland if Dublin is split in four.

No, we just invest in all other counties fairly.

- Dublin had a coherent plan to raise juvenile participation, and got funding for that. It was widely available and publicised at the time. It has worked. Children of all ages, sizes and gender now get the opportunity to play their native games. As a result, funding has tapered off as the initiative has begun to become self-sustaining.

The plan was devised elsewhere, they recommended huge investment but also splitting Dublin. In the end only the huge investment came to pass. The unfairness of this has been pointed out a huge number of times.

- It has been claimed that other counties have such plans, but none have been seen or produced. Instead we get vanity projects in other counties (e.g. development centres in Kerry) or we get huge investment in the senior team (e.g. Mayo) at the expense of juvenile participation.

Other counties went to Croke Park with plans but had the door slammed in their face. The investment in Dublin only came about through disgraced former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern.

- Dublin will always get more money, because there are more children in Dublin

It's already been pointed out that the level of funding far exceeds the population difference. Comparisons with Cork have shown the ridiculousness of that argument.

- Dublin deserve huge kudos for the way that they have increased interest and participation in our games.

Dublin have spent millions of all of our money to do a job they were failing miserably at.

- There is a once-in-a-lifetime generation of great players in Dublin, from Cluxton to Cooper and Kilkenny to McCaffrey.

This is not only about the Dublin footballers. The Dublin hurlers have gone from minnows to All Ireland contenders. Huge improvement at underage, club and womens competitions also. Also, remember it was once off players like Brogan, Connolly and Flynn?

If you would actually address some of these points, and acknowledge the truth, the discussion might be able to move forward.

I've addressed them all and batted them out of the park! It's Dublin supporters who won't engage but as I said, it's up to the rest of us to sort things out.

Farawayhome · 18-06-2019 05:47PM

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

This is the big one. The bitters hate hearing it but so many countries have been shown they won't make any use of funding.
Talking about money just in relation to one team is the laziest argument there is.

The money obviously was essential to Dublin increasing standards across the board. The vital spending was not on the coaches, however. As I've pointed out, Dublin had a whole team of highly paid development officers overseeing everything. Regional development officers, hurling development officers etc were all reporting to the Strategic Program Manager. This is how the elite player development worked so well. They had a professional set up overseeing it.

ToBeFrank123 · 18-06-2019 06:37PM

blanch152 wrote: »

You said Munster used to be competitive, the evidence says otherwise. We should just leave it there.

You know well what I meant. Cork winning Munster championships on a regular basis. Cork have fallen away but lets see what the Munster final brings.

Competitive means at least 2 counties having a credible chance of winning something. Leinster certainly doesn't fall into that category

Bonniedog · 18-06-2019 06:44PM

Farawayhome wrote: »

What is this? Are you pretending that Dublin were always at the top table in hurling? Dublin have always been minnows while competing with their own players. They were still minnows up until the cash injection. And now look? Knocking out Galway, winning National titles, dining at the top table.

!. Dublin are not at the top table in hurling.

2. Dublin were never at same level as Carlow.

There are bukes you can read on all of this ...

Jaden · 18-06-2019 06:44PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Competitive means at least 2 counties having a credible chance of winning something. Leinster certainly doesn't fall into that category

You have literally made up a definition to suit a point of view.

Munster has been between two counties out of six for more than last 80 years. In that time another county has won it exactly ONCE. And that is since before WWII

I would think that it is the very definition of noncompetitive.

Farawayhome · 18-06-2019 06:53PM

Bonniedog wrote: »

!. Dublin are not at the top table in hurling.

2. Dublin were never at same level as Carlow.

There are bukes you can read on all of this ...

1. The only county to win a Leinster championship apart from Kilkenny and Galway since 2004. National League champions in 2013. Just knocked last years beaten All Ireland finalists out at the weekend. They are at the top table.

2. I said Dublin were minnows and that's true. Whipping boys until the money came in.

There will be plenty of bukes written about all of this, that's for sure.

Farawayhome · 18-06-2019 06:54PM

Jaden wrote: »

You have literally made up a definition to suit a point of view.

Munster has been between two counties out of six for more than last 80 years. In that time another county has won it exactly ONCE. And that is since before WWII

I would think that it is the very definition of noncompetitive.

He said: "even if Munster isn't as competitive as it once was." When Cork were competing it was more competitive. Basic stuff.

Jaden · 18-06-2019 06:58PM

"Munster Football has not been competitive since the mid 1930s." This is a fair statement. You may disagree.

Farawayhome · 18-06-2019 07:16PM

Jaden wrote: »

"Munster Football has not been competitive since the mid 1930s." This is a fair statement. You may disagree.

I was just pointing out the strawman argument. No big deal.

salmocab · 18-06-2019 07:25PM

Dublin hurlers did not just knock out Galway they beat them, it was a round robin.
The hurlers aren’t AI contenders in any real sense, I doubt too many people think they have much of a chance of actually winning it.

dunnerc · 18-06-2019 07:53PM

Farawayhome wrote: »

Is this forum a reflection of Dublin supporters attitudes in general? If so, they seem to have gone from some vain attempts to deny the amount of money they get to admitting that they get far more than everyone else but they don't care. Sad to see no sense of fairness amongst them. It does reflect the attitude of the Dublin county board chief executive. The strength of Gaelic Games doesn't come into their thinking. It's all about gaining success in all grades and codes, they don't care if that success is bought.
What they have to realise is that the rest of us can't let that continue. The strength of Gaelic Games in all counties is what matters and we need to wake the GAA up to it. It won't happen under the Dublin president but the first thing that must happen under the next president is that the funding gets drastically cut in Dublin and spread around. I'm of the opinion that Dublin should be split into 4, others say 2 but one thing is for sure, change is needed. Then structures in all counties need to be improved. They need the resources obviously but also the personnel put in place to ensure the correct spending of these resources.
This is exactly what happened in Dublin. Highly paid development managers were hired to oversee the huge financial investment into their structures. The blueprint is there for all counties, of course, it's what should have happened back in 2005 but we can do it now. This is vital for the future of Gaelic Games, with proper investment, we should have a huge number of teams competing for titles in just a few years. Let's not forget that this was the way it was in the recent past. 21 different counties have won provincial championships since 1992. Let's start working on this, let's fight for fair play.

Dublin wont be split

Farawayhome · 18-06-2019 08:47PM

salmocab wrote: »

Dublin hurlers did not just knock out Galway they beat them, it was a round robin.
The hurlers aren’t AI contenders in any real sense, I doubt too many people think they have much of a chance of actually winning it.

By beating them they knocked them out. Galway lost last years All Ireland final by a point. Dublin aren't favourites for the All Ireland but they are contenders and certainly are at the top table. They've come a long way since been beaten by Westmeath in 2006. In fact, it could be argued that the improvements to Dublin hurlers outshines their footballers achievements!

Bonniedog · 18-06-2019 09:04PM

Farawayhome wrote: »

1. The only county to win a Leinster championship apart from Kilkenny and Galway since 2004. National League champions in 2013. Just knocked last years beaten All Ireland finalists out at the weekend. They are at the top table.

2. I said Dublin were minnows and that's true. Whipping boys until the money came in.

There will be plenty of bukes written about all of this, that's for sure.

Are Dublin players getting paid?

Missed that.

Much as I would like it, we have no chance of winning the All Ireland. Your ignorance of hurling can be added to your considerable CV

salmocab · 18-06-2019 09:05PM

Farawayhome wrote: »

By beating them they knocked them out. Galway lost last years All Ireland final by a point. Dublin aren't favourites for the All Ireland but they are contenders and certainly are at the top table. They've come a long way since been beaten by Westmeath in 2006. In fact, it could be argued that the improvements to Dublin hurlers outshines their footballers achievements!

They beat them that’s it. They hardly ripped through the group. They aren’t real contenders and aren’t at the top table as you call it. They looked a few years back like kicking on but fell away a good bit. They are a good bit behind the real contenders. Hurling badly needs another top county especially in Leinster and there was a conscious decision made that Dublin was the obvious place to do that. It’s paying off but they are still a long way to go to being real contenders.

Farawayhome · 18-06-2019 09:22PM

Bonniedog wrote: »

Are Dublin players getting paid?

Missed that.

Much as I would like it, we have no chance of winning the All Ireland. Your ignorance of hurling can be added to your considerable CV

When did I say they were getting paid?

You claimed Dublin were not at the top table, they clearly are. Shows what money can do.

salmocab · 18-06-2019 09:25PM

Farawayhome wrote: »

When did I say they were getting paid?

You claimed Dublin were not at the top table, they clearly are. Shows what money can do.

Saying they clearly are doesn’t make it so.

Hammer Archer · 18-06-2019 09:25PM

I'd like to remind Dublin posters that, regardless of how you feel about it, this is an acceptable topic for discussion. Nothing is forcing you to participate in the discussion. So if you've nothing constructive to add to it, then don't post. Simple as that.

Farawayhome · 18-06-2019 09:28PM

salmocab wrote: »

They beat them that’s it. They hardly ripped through the group. They aren’t real contenders and aren’t at the top table as you call it. They looked a few years back like kicking on but fell away a good bit. They are a good bit behind the real contenders. Hurling badly needs another top county especially in Leinster and there was a conscious decision made that Dublin was the obvious place to do that. It’s paying off but they are still a long way to go to being real contenders.

Beat them and knocked them out. They are clearly at the top table, highly likely to be into the last 6 at the very least this year. They beat Tipperary to get to the semi final of the league where they narrowly lost to Limerick.
Why was Dublin the obvious place to go? Why do you think Dublin deserves special treatment?

Farawayhome · 18-06-2019 09:29PM

salmocab wrote: »

Saying they clearly are doesn’t make it so.

I just backed it up in the last post.

ToBeFrank123 · 18-06-2019 09:36PM

Farawayhome wrote: »

1. The only county to win a Leinster championship apart from Kilkenny and Galway since 2004. National League champions in 2013. Just knocked last years beaten All Ireland finalists out at the weekend. They are at the top table.

2. I said Dublin were minnows and that's true. Whipping boys until the money came in.

There will be plenty of bukes written about all of this, that's for sure.

I hope to god the GDF spend currently going into Dublin hurling doesn't also lead to them becoming a monster that no-one can compete with. Otherwise it would destroy hurling in the same way it has football.

There's strong evidence ladies football has also been skewed in favour of Dublin, as we know GDF is used for coaching both boys and girls.

No other county can hope to compete with the GDF spend of Dublin, not even close.

The GAA have favoured Dublin for years now in the hope it would guarantee regular big crowds to help pay off Croke Park. Its backfired spectacularly with Leinster Croke Park attendances massively down.

Because, guess what, competitive matches attract crowds, not one sided demolitions. If only the top brass in the GAA could understand this!

salmocab · 18-06-2019 09:38PM

Farawayhome wrote: »

I just backed it up in the last post.

You didn’t back it up, I know you think you did just like earlier where you claimed you knocked some claims out of the park. The top table is surely reserved for teams that are in with very good chances of making off with the trophy. Galway didn’t get knocked out because of one result. Yes Dublin have an excellent chance of getting to the last 6.
Dublin hurling is doing well nothing more.

Farawayhome · 18-06-2019 09:51PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I hope to god the GDF spend currently going into Dublin hurling doesn't also lead to them becoming a monster that no-one can compete with. Otherwise it would destroy hurling in the same way it has football.

There's strong evidence ladies football has also been skewed in favour of Dublin, as we know GDF is used for coaching both boys and girls.

No other county can hope to compete with the GDF spend of Dublin, not even close.

The GAA have favoured Dublin for years now in the hope it would guarantee regular big crowds to help pay off Croke Park. Its backfired spectacularly with Leinster Croke Park attendances massively.

Because, guess what competitive matches attract crowds, not one sided demolitions. If only the top brass in the GAA could understand this!

There are so many hurling counties crying out for funding. Earlier in this thread, I posted a link showing a former Laois manager had the door slammed in his face when he went looking for financial assistance. Look at Offaly now down to the Cristy Ring. Counties like Carlow, Westmeath and Kerry have made great ground, what would they be able to do with proper structures and the finance to back it. Same with Antrim. There are other counties too on the edges. Another poster said Dublin were selected as the county to be promoted. I just don't see why? What makes Dublin a special case that deserves so much funding above everyone else?

Changes in the GAA - super thread

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