Armstrong Cup 2018-19

cdeb · 09-03-2019 8:50pm

St Benildus 3-2 Kilkenny. Last three games on Wednesday.

Decent start for us - because the league fixtures don't change, we always get Kilkenny on the weekend of their annual dinner, so they typically have a full team for it

sodacat11 · 09-03-2019 11:19pm

cdeb wrote: »

St Benildus 3-2 Kilkenny. Last three games on Wednesday.

Decent start for us - because the league fixtures don't change, we always get Kilkenny on the weekend of their annual dinner, so they typically have a full team for it

Another good reason why the fixtures should change.

Tim Harding · 14-03-2019 12:26pm

cdeb wrote: »

St Benildus 3-2 Kilkenny. Last three games on Wednesday.

What happened in those games last night?

Rathmines v Gonzaga A tonight.

Danville · 15-03-2019 12:27am

Tim Harding wrote: »

What happened in those games last night?

Rathmines v Gonzaga A tonight.

St Benildus 5 Kilkenny 3

Rathminor · 15-03-2019 12:37am

Rathmines 2.5 Gonzaga A 5.5

Rathminor · 15-03-2019 12:45am

Tonight’s results confirm Gonzaga as champions.
The only team that can catch Gonzaga A for the title are Gonzaga B

macelligott · 19-03-2019 7:22pm

So Gonzaga "B" are still in with a chance of taking the title ahead of their "A" team. But first they need a very big score against Dublin on this coming Saturday - not easy. In the last round the "B" team has the easier pairing (Dun Laoghaire) as opposed to the "A" team who play Balbriggan.
I'll leave it to someone else to analyze the relegation "battle".

Tim Harding · 19-03-2019 7:35pm

The situation is complicated by the current deduction of points for non-registration.

That makes the analysis of the relegation battle messy, and if both Gonzaga teams failed to get their points back then other clubs could win the Cup.

In practice as we know the points are usually restored. Anyone know of exceptions?

cdeb · 19-03-2019 7:59pm

Anyone who doesn't get the points back deserves to be relegated tbh

They'll all be restored. But it's a good exercise all told

Tim Harding · 19-03-2019 9:44pm

Matters in the relegation zone will be a lot clearer after the remaining round 10 matches are played (two on Saturday and one next Monday).

Assuming all clubs get their Reg deductions back, I think we can assume that Dun Laoghaire are doomed. They are 5.5 or more adrift of four clubs which have a match in hand, and with Gonzaga B to come DL cannot hope to survive. Even an improbable 8-0 win for them might well be insufficient.

On the other hand, even if Balbriggan (37) are whitewashed in the last round by Gonzaga A they might survive. Rathmines and Dublin could both struggle to catch Balbriggan especially if the northsiders can score a point somewhere.

Rathmines (with only St. Benildus to play) are 3.5 behind Balbriggan and, though they have improved their chances lately, they are probably favourites to go down with DL as it stands.
However if Dublin (30 pts) were to be heavily whacked by Gonzaga B and still be in 11th after the weekend, then Rathmines prospects improve a bit.
Dublin play Trinity in that very badly timetabled last round when the college club may find it hard (between exams and the Ennis congress) to turn out in strength. I will play if called on but I cannot speak for others.

The other teams in the nether regions are all on 32.5 with two matches to go, and since Blanch plays Elm Mt on Monday, one or other or both should be safe after that. If not, Bray play Elm Mount in the last round which could yet be a significant match.
Blanch play Kilkenny in round 11.

Meanwhile Bray play Trinity on Saturday and we shall do our best to do Rathmines and Dublin a favour.

sodacat11 · 19-03-2019 11:03pm

I heard that both the venue and the date of the last round might be changed. They both certainly should be!!

DmanDmythDledge · 20-03-2019 1:27am

sodacat11 wrote: »

I heard that both the venue and the date of the last round might be changed. They both certainly should be!!

Again?

sodacat11 · 20-03-2019 11:53am

DmanDmythDledge wrote: »

Again?

Better late than never.

Past_Pawn_99 · 23-03-2019 8:36pm

Trinity 3 - 5 Bray

Tim Harding · 23-03-2019 9:07pm

Can anyone explain why, in the current Armstrong table, all Trinity's points are deducted under "Reg" although in the posted list of unregistered players there are no Trinity Armstrong players, only two subs from the Ennis team?

(And only some of the Ennis team's points are deducted.)

It's impossible to make sense of the league table the way it is at present.

sodacat11 · 24-03-2019 9:09am

Tim Harding wrote: »

Can anyone explain why, in the current Armstrong table, all Trinity's points are deducted under "Reg" although in the posted list of unregistered players there are no Trinity Armstrong players, only two subs from the Ennis team?

(And only some of the Ennis team's points are deducted.)

It's impossible to make sense of the league table the way it is at present.

Reg , or Reginald as he prefers to be called, is actually a mischievous gremlin. He is responsible for the nonsensical league table and the silly fixture list which now sees teams losing players for matches because their players are playing chess in Galway and Ennis. No doubt he is also responsible for the league not ending until sometime in the summer, whenever that may be.

sodacat11 · 24-03-2019 9:16am

Joking aside, all players should be paid up and registered with the ICU BEFORE the leagues begin. What is happening at the moment is that some players don't pay at all and their clubs end up paying for them in an effort to avoid losing points. Advance payment and registration would stop teams importing players late in the season too.

macelligott · 24-03-2019 9:20am

Any result for Gonzaga B - Dublin ?

sodacat11 · 24-03-2019 10:19am

macelligott wrote: »

Any result for Gonzaga B - Dublin ?

4-4 Gonzaga had to field a weakened team because of the clash with Galway which is very unfair to Rathmines. Thanks again Reginald

cdeb · 24-03-2019 10:41am

In fairness, the LCU have long said they can't avoid clashes with every tournament and will only prioritise Leinster events and Bunratty. I think it's entirely reasonable. The leagues would never get finished if clashes with Limerick, Ennis, Cork, Galway, the Ulster championships, the Tory Island King of the Board tournament, etc, had to be avoided.

The option was there to rearrange boards, which I know other clubs have done.

sodacat11 · 24-03-2019 10:43am

cdeb wrote: »

In fairness, the LCU have long said they can't avoid clashes with every tournament and will only prioritise Leinster events and Bunratty. I think it's entirely reasonable. The leagues would never get finished if clashes with Limerick, Ennis, Cork, Galway, the Ulster championships, the Tory Island King of the Board tournament, etc, had to be avoided.

The option was there to rearrange boards, which I know other clubs have done.

Clubs threatened with relegation are hardly going to facilitate opponents by rearranging games.

cdeb · 24-03-2019 10:51am

Tough so.

Also, weren't the LCU fixtures done before Galway was scheduled? Should the LCU have foreseen what weekend Galway was going to be on? Or should they have dictated to Galway what weekend to select?

Not seeing what practical solution there is here.

undisputed · 24-03-2019 10:58am

One solution is to play all league matches just on weekdays. No weekend matches at all, maybe with exception for Kilkenny only.

ChessPlayer123 · 24-03-2019 3:35pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

4-4 Gonzaga had to field a weakened team because of the clash with Galway which is very unfair to Rathmines. Thanks again Reginald

How is that unfair on Rathmines, but Gonzaga A fielding a 1300 against Rathmines isn't unfair on Dublin? Or is it unfair on Dublin too but you didn't say anything because the world revolves around Sodacat?

sodacat11 · 24-03-2019 10:15pm

ChessPlayer123 wrote: »

How is that unfair on Rathmines, but Gonzaga A fielding a 1300 against Rathmines isn't unfair on Dublin? Or is it unfair on Dublin too but you didn't say anything because the world revolves around Sodacat?

The Gonzaga 1300 is a lot better than that as he proved by drawing with an 1800. Dublin's final two fixtures are against a weakened Gonzaga B and a probably even more weakened Trinity (according to Tim) so yes it is unfair to Rathmines especially as we always get Gonzaga "A" AND Benildus in the final rounds and they are seldom weakened.
Yes my world does revolve around Sodacat ,and those I love. If your world doesn't revolve around you then perhaps you need some therapy to deal with your low self esteem.

Rathminor · 24-03-2019 11:01pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

Clubs threatened with relegation are hardly going to facilitate opponents by rearranging games.

I understand that Gonzaga did ask to move some boards to midweek to avoid clashing with Galway, but Dublin (as is their right) refused.

When we played Dublin earlier this year, Dublin were able to facilitate us by playing one board on a Saturday, although we were hoping to play 2 on a Saturday afternoon.

I think it’s a challenge for both the league controller in trying to get 11 rounds into the calendar, whilst accommodating certain events and then for captains to get suitable dates for games that work either on Saturday afternoons or midweek evenings.

ChessPlayer123 · 25-03-2019 12:10am

sodacat11 wrote: »

The Gonzaga 1300 is a lot better than that as he proved by drawing with an 1800. Dublin's final two fixtures are against a weakened Gonzaga B and a probably even more weakened Trinity (according to Tim) so yes it is unfair to Rathmines especially as we always get Gonzaga "A" AND Benildus in the final rounds and they are seldom weakened.
Yes my world does revolve around Sodacat ,and those I love. If your world doesn't revolve around you then perhaps you need some therapy to deal with your low self esteem.

did Gonzaga "B" 1300 not beat a 1667? Giving him a better performance than Gonzaga "A"'s 1300? So unfair on Dublin in my opinion. And the Armstrong is a round robin league, so every team has to play Gonzaga A and Benildus, the point of the season you play them is irrelevant.

Past_Pawn_99 · 25-03-2019 1:43am

ChessPlayer123 wrote: »

did Gonzaga "B" 1300 not beat a 1667? Giving him a better performance than Gonzaga "A"'s 1300? So unfair on Dublin in my opinion. And the Armstrong is a round robin league, so every team has to play Gonzaga A and Benildus, the point of the season you play them is irrelevant.

I agree with your first point but what time of the year you play certain teams is completely relevant. Certain teams are weaker or stronger at different times of the year.

Kilmokey · 25-03-2019 11:22am

I have an idea can every team captain please submit to the League controller which round they will be submitting a weakened team so that the league fixtures can be done to accommodate Sodacat

Pete Morriss · 25-03-2019 11:26am

cdeb wrote: »

Also, weren't the LCU fixtures done before Galway was scheduled? Should the LCU have foreseen what weekend Galway was going to be on? Or should they have dictated to Galway what weekend to select?

FYI the Galway Congress was scheduled last June.*mod snip* I don't know when the LCU arranged its fixtures, but if it wanted to avoid scheduling matches to clash it obviously could have done. It seems that the earlier statement that the LCU makes no attempt to avoid clashes with events outside Leinster, except Bunratty, is correct. Of course the LCU cannot "dictate" to Galway or anyone else - but it could attempt to liaise if it wanted to, which would benefit both other congresses and its own leagues.

sodacat11 · 25-03-2019 11:41am

Kilmokey wrote: »

I have an idea can every team captain please submit to the League controller which round they will be submitting a weakened team so that the league fixtures can be done to accommodate Sodacat

An excellent idea!! I would also appreciate it if Rathmines matches don't clash with Chelsea games and any major golf and horse racing events. If the new controller emails me I will provide a detailed list of unsuitable dates.

macelligott · 26-03-2019 12:49am

R 10 Elm Mount 2.5- 5.5 Blanchardstown

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 26-03-2019 11:00am

So Gonzaga A are officially champions and Dun Laoghaire are relegated. Too close to call who the other relegation team will be.

Gonzaga A 58
Gonzaga B 49.5
Benildus 45.5
Trinity 43.5
Kilkenny 42
Blanchardatown 38
Bray 37.5
Balbriggan 37
Elm Mount 35
Dublin 34
Rathmines 33.5
Dun Laoghaire 24.5

Most matches in the last round will be significant (apart from Gonzaga B vs Dun Laoghaire And Kilkenny Vs Blanch - although Blanch may rest a little easier once they’ve a point or two on the board).

Not to speculate too much but personally I’m excited to see what teams are turned out - would like to see David for Elm Mount, finally a full team from Rathmines (Haques and all) and Colm for Bray.

Balbriggan have averaged 1.2 points against Gonzaga over the past 5 years and have lost to the 3 teams behind them (somehow! - they’ve only lost 4 matches total) so go down on tiebreak if it comes to a tie for 10th and 11th.

In saying that, Rathmines will have a lot to do to get to that projected Balbriggan total of 38. They’ll need to beat a top 6 side for the first time this season; where their best score until now against a top 6 side is 2.5. However, they arguably have the strongest squad to choose from of the bottom 5 with Mel, 2 Haques, some Peter guy (never heard of him), Fiachra, and 3 others over 1800.

Dublin will have an unknown quantity in trinity who could turn out a team that drew with Gonzaga A or that has 2-3 subs because of exams/other commitments. Dublin have managed only 2 wins this season but 4 draws and another draw would be enough to get them to 38.

Lastly, Elm Mount take on their nemesis of the last round last year who beat them 4.5-3.5, Bray. Bray can technically strengthen on that team if both Colm and MDV play and they turn out a team similar to the one that played Gonzaga B. Elm Mount may be able to call on Dave to strengthen the top boards and they could do with their strongest team as Bray will likely have an 1800 on 8.

Hopefully those matches are all played on the last day as it would be fascinating to watch.

Tim Harding · 26-03-2019 12:56pm

I see you are assuming all registration points will be restored but it's still unexplained why Trinity are docked all their points despite the fact that no player on our Armstrong team is unregistered.

Dun Laoghaire nevertheless look like being in the Armstrong next season as they are 4 points clear in the Heidenfeld?
Rathmines would have an outside chance if they could win their last match heavily.

Something needs to be done about this registration issue next season. It's not right that it has brought unclarity to promotion/relegation issues with just one round to go.
Maybe it's impracticable to expect all players to pay up in the early season, though I always do, but a much earlier deadline needs to be enforced (say Christmas?) after which no restoration of points is allowed.

I have a double suggestion.
a) Let clubs have an option to pay membership fees to ICU in advance for, say, two (maybe even four) new players. These could be students, new adult players, seniors returning after a long break from chess or genuine visitors from abroad (as opposed to "hired guns" who should pay a double fee, incidentally).
These codes can then be assigned to last-minute subs or new arrivals as required, rather than chasing these (sometimes casual) players after the event for their money. I would think this should help college and school clubs especially.

2) Nobody should be allowed play an ICU-rated tournament of any kind (including blitz and rapid) without paying their ICU sub for the season. When they enter a tournament their status is checked and they are told they must pay before being included in the draw for round 2.

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 26-03-2019 1:16pm

You had several unpaid players at the time points were deducted (start of March). The LCU did as they’ve always done and deducted every point from matches where those players were involved. I’m sure they will be restored as they always are once a new rating file comes out or once the league controller checks again - it’s unrealistic to expect him to check who has and hasn’t paid every day. These players had 6-7 months to pay their fees - this has always been the way of ensuring they do or will in fairly short order.

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 26-03-2019 1:30pm

Also, Dun Laoghaire look highly unlikely to be promoted. A revised table has them in 4th with 4 teams with games in hand likely to overtake them. Malahide were favourites to win that league but have since started very poorly against Enniscorthy; any of 7 others can claim some varying degrees of promotion chances.

Curragh 45 10MP
Celebridge 43.5 10MP
Benildus 43 10MP
Dun Laoghaire 42 10MP
Ballinasloe, Phibsboro, Rathmines all on 41 9MP
Malahide 38 8MP
Bray 36.5 10MP
Elm Mount 31.5 9MP
Inchicore 31 9MP
Enniscorthy 20.5 9MP

cdeb · 26-03-2019 1:54pm

There is a strong argument that points deductions should apply in January instead of March alright. They could then be all cleared up by late Feb, giving no issues for the run-in in March.

As always, of course, it comes down to volunteers helping out rather than typing on the internet.

It does look like Rathmines up and down is quite likely alright

sodacat11 · 26-03-2019 6:41pm

It is very clear to even the most obtuse that Rathmines are badly handicapped by having the same fixtures in the same order year after year as we always have to play Gonzaga "A" and Benildus in the last two rounds and those two teams always have close to their strongest line ups because they are always in contention for medals and because their players do not have to travel too far to the venues. The teams who get the middle ranked teams who have nothing left to play for or the teams whose players have to travel long distances get a MUCH easier ride. One just has tolook at the Six Nations rugby or any other league that I can think of to see that the order of fixtures is changed every year. This can easily be done while alternating the home/away situation between clubs but even if it didn't would a completely open fixture draw every season be such a bad thing once clubs still got five home and five away matches?

Ciaran · 27-03-2019 10:39am

sodacat11 wrote: »

This can easily be done while alternating the home/away situation between clubs but even if it didn't would a completely open fixture draw every season be such a bad thing once clubs still got five home and five away matches?

It should be a simple matter to do an open draw every second year and reverse the home and away the next year. It wouldn't be long before someone was complaining about being away to Kilkenny three years in a row with a fully open draw every year!

sodacat11 · 27-03-2019 1:53pm

Ciaran wrote: »

It should be a simple matter to do an open draw every second year and reverse the home and away the next year. It wouldn't be long before someone was complaining about being away to Kilkenny three years in a row with a fully open draw every year!

Yes, that would be a perfect solution!

Tim Harding · 27-03-2019 6:04pm

Good suggestion by Ciaran.

Looking on the bright side, if it doesn't happen, Rathmines getting relegated (and not promoted from the Heidenfeld) would break the sequence of getting the same teams.

It's not even really true, sodacat, if you go back two seasons.
In 2016/17 Rathmines played Balbriggan in round 10 and Blanchardstown in round 11:
http://www.chessleague.net/chessorg/leinster/fixtures.php?org=1&lid=85

In 15/16 Rathmnines was in the Heidenfeld and in 14/15 Rathmines played the two Elm Mount teams in the last two rounds.

sodacat11 · 27-03-2019 6:21pm

That is only because promoted teams replace relegated teams. We had the same fixtures, just with venues reversed, in the same order this season as last.
I am sure that Trinity would enjoy relegating their local rivals, Dublin, so start ensuring that you get a strong team out against them in may!

Tim Harding · 27-03-2019 6:46pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

That is only because promoted teams replace relegated teams. We had the same fixtures, just with venues reversed, in the same order this season as last.
I am sure that Trinity would enjoy relegating their local rivals, Dublin, so start ensuring that you get a strong team out against them in may!

We shall do our best to save you but you need to get all your big guns out on the last day, whatever the problems with school exams etc.

At least the tie-break is in your favour if you can make up the half-point deficit on Dublin?

I suspect it will come down to who is available on whichever date and venue is chosen. Personally I favour playing on the 12th May in Rathfarnham rather than out in ALSAA on the 19th. Both dates are bad for some people, between student exams, clash with Ennis on the 19th, and other factors. It's just far too late in the season.

Meanwhile the league table has been updated. Some teams including Gonzaga are still missing a few Reg deductions and Blanchardstown are minus all their points at present.

sodacat11 · 27-03-2019 10:18pm

Tim Harding wrote: »

I suspect it will come down to who is available on whichever date and venue is chosen. Personally I favour playing on the 12th May in Rathfarnham rather than out in ALSAA on the 19th. Both dates are bad for some people, between student exams, clash with Ennis on the 19th, and other factors. It's just far too late in the season..

I never heard the 12th in May being mentioned anywhere. What's that about?

Tim Harding · 27-03-2019 10:33pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

I never heard the 12th in May being mentioned anywhere. What's that about?

Well you are the one who posted on 19 March (page 25 of this thread):

sodacat11 wrote: »

I heard that both the venue and the date of the last round might be changed. They both certainly should be!!

May 12 was the original date, though no venue was announced.
I am going on what I've been told unofficially by our captain.

The Aer Lingus club is only available on the 19th apparently but he tells me there is a move to have the matches (or some of them) played on the 12th after all at Colaiste Eanna, Rathfarnham.

This is unofficial; I have no first-hand confirmation.

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 01-05-2019 11:34pm

Dun Laoghaire 1-7 Gonzaga B

Tim Harding · 02-05-2019 9:32am

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

Dun Laoghaire 1-7 Gonzaga B

So that is first, second and last places confirmed. Which leaves third place and the other relegation spot to be decided on 19 May, but LCU still have not made a definite announcement about the times that each division final is to be played, so far as I can see.

sodacat11 · 15-05-2019 9:11pm

benildus .5 Rathmines .5
I hear that Trinity only have four or five players available for their match against Dublin on Sunday. If this is the case then either Trinity should get relegated for failing to fulfill their fixtures or we should get a play off against Dublin. It would be grossly unfair if we were relegated because of a combination of inept fixturing by the league controller and unacceptable behaviour by Trinity. If Trinity knew they weren't going to be able to field a decent team why didn't they contact the Controller and have their match v Dublin played in advance? The whole thing is a pathetic farce.

Tim Harding · 15-05-2019 9:20pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

benildus .5 Rathmines .5
I hear that Trinity only have four or five players available for their match against Dublin on Sunday. If this is the case then either Trinity should get relegated for failing to fulfill their fixtures or we should get a play off against Dublin. It would be grossly unfair if we were relegated because of a combination of inept fixturing by the league controller and unacceptable behaviour by Trinity. If Trinity knew they weren't going to be able to field a decent team why didn't they contact the Controller and have their match v Dublin played in advance? The whole thing is a pathetic farce.

I am not the captain and I don't know where you got your information. I don't know how many players we shall have (it was four a few days ago) but I will play and do my best. Probably this will be the last league game I play for anyone, certainly for Trinity.

Our captain, as I understand it, entered the Ennis Congress before the LCU changed the date of the last round. Even the original date was far too late in the year, falling in the middle of student exams.
Also Trinity has to field an Ennis team in the same session. I have no idea whether there will be a full team for that.

I believe our captain asked for games or the whole match to be played in advance but Dublin wouldn't agree because of course they want to exploit the situation.

LCU cannot penalise us for their mistakes but I agree you should get a challenge match against Dublin to decide the relegation spot.

sodacat11 · 15-05-2019 9:26pm

You can join Rathmines Tim!
Not very sporting of Dublin to decline a reschedule but no surprise as sportsmanship seems to be a thing of the past these days . The only fair way of solving what is a very unfair situation is a play off between Dublin and Rathmines. Then again, maybe Benildus could do a "trinity" a field a vastly weakened team, that would teach Dublin a lesson.

Armstrong Cup 2018-19

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