Armstrong Cup 2018-19

sodacat11

I see that the fixtures are out for the coming season. http://www.chessleague.net/

I don't get why the same teams have to play each other in the same rounds every year. Why can't the fixtures be shuffled around? It is ridiculous that clubs which are geographically close to each other have to travel a longer distance to a neutral venue to play each other in the final round every year. e.g Rathmines v Benildus, Dublin Uni v Dublin, Dun Laoghaire v Gonzaga. Also, would it not make more sense to have Gonzaga "A"play title rivals Elm Mount or Dublin in the last round instead of lowly Balbriggan?
If the draw must be rigged then better to have teams likely to be close to each other playing in the final rounds? I understand that teams must be at home to teams they met away the previous year but surely with computers it wouldn't be too hard to have a more open draw and still make that possible?

Tim Harding

Thanks for the link; I kept trying the old LCU site which still seems to be down, maybe permanently?

I see no dates are listed for matches yet, which is a bit strange, but maybe the idea is to let clubs negotiate a bit on that?
I hope that the later date of Easter in 2019 may enable the event to be completed earlier, maybe even in March.

I still don't understand why LCU some years ago switched to having only five rounds before Christmas, with no December matches. Was that at the request of clubs?

I agree there should be more transparency about how the draw is done. That is something that needs to be clarified and debated before the 2019/20 season.

For round 1 presumably it was a forced pairing for the Gonzaga teams to meet, but yes it's the second time in succession that Trinity plays Dun Laoghaire first, followed by Gonzaga and Dublin in the last round. So it certainly doesn't look like a random draw.

Your point about the last round is invalid I think. It is a good thing all matches are played together as it eliminates any danger of collusion, and in theory makes it possible to have proper arbiting. It's also an end-of-season chance for everyone to meet up.

What is not so good is that last April there were no increments in the final round, and that all the southside clubs were dragged out to the airport again. After my game I waited about 45 minutes outside AALSA for a bus, because they were all full leaving the terminals, until somebody with a car rescued me.

Most of all, though, I just hope for the event to run smoothly with no arbitrary and perverse interpretation of badly-worded rules.

EnPassant

Presumably the reason pairings are reversed each year is so that, for example, Dublin teams travel to Kilkenny in alternate years.

Given that so many Armstrong teams now play on Saturdays, maybe the LCU should look at running the Armstrong similarly to the Munster leagues, with 2 matches played at a central venue on 5 Saturdays throughout the season with the last round being played as at present. It would free up lots of time on the calendar for events such as the Branagan Cup, etc.

Tim Harding

EnPassant wrote: »

Presumably the reason pairings are reversed each year is so that, for example, Dublin teams travel to Kilkenny in alternate years.

Yes but why in the same rounds almost every time?

EnPassant wrote: »

Given that so many Armstrong teams now play on Saturdays, maybe the LCU should look at running the Armstrong similarly to the Munster leagues, with 2 matches played at a central venue on 5 Saturdays throughout the season with the last round being played as at present. It would free up lots of time on the calendar for events such as the Branagan Cup, etc.

Definitely NOT in favour of playing two FIDE-rated games in a day if it can be avoided. Weekends with rounds on Saturdays and Sundays as in the 4NCL and many continental leagues would be much preferable for older players, but finding the venues could be a problem.
Another issue may be that there are more tournaments these days.

I think Trinity may be playing their home matches on Saturday this season (in both Armstrong and Ennis) but that is up to the new committee. Uncertainty over such details may be what is delaying putting dates on the fixture list.

sodacat11

Of course the fixtures have to be reversed each year but they do not have to be played in the same sequence as the preceding year, that is just a lazy way of doing the "draw" (in fact it isn't a draw at all). Every year Dun laoghaire get Dublin Uni in round one when Dublin are at their weakest and have trouble fielding a team. Similarly some poor sods have to play Kilkenny the weekend they have their Christmas do and all their best players are available. Apart from having the two Gonzaga teams play each other in round one, which is unavoidable, there should be a completely open draw. This would not prevent the home and aways from the previous season being reversed, they just wouldn't be in the same sequence.
As for Tim's point about the last round, I am not saying that it shouldn't be held in the one venue, I am just saying that the same teams shouldn't be playing each other there every year. Mind you, that ALSAA venue is completely crap as far as chess venues go.-, way too cramped and the lighting is awful.

Tim Harding

sodacat11 wrote: »

... Mind you, that ALSAA venue is completely crap as far as chess venues go.-, way too cramped and the lighting is awful.

True, though that place we played one year in Inchicore was far more crowded, and the Bray hotel another time was a disaster. The Armstrong matches were played in the front bar with all the fun of the fair blaring in from the seafront.

I preferred Teachers Club but maybe there are objections to that venue too.

We need a millionaire benefactor, say a chess player winning the Lotto, to buy a suitable premises for a National Chess Centre. (Fat chance alas)

sodacat11

That hotel in Stillorgan where we had the Irish Championship is brilliant as is Gonzaga or the Royal marine in Dun Laoghaire. Green isle is good too and the Maldron hotel where the Malahide tournament was held is also excellent.

Danville

sodacat11 wrote: »

Of course the fixtures have to be reversed each year but they do not have to be played in the same sequence as the preceding year, that is just a lazy way of doing the "draw" (in fact it isn't a draw at all). Every year Dun laoghaire get Dublin Uni in round one when Dublin are at their weakest and have trouble fielding a team. Similarly some poor sods have to play Kilkenny the weekend they have their Christmas do and all their best players are available. Apart from having the two Gonzaga teams play each other in round one, which is unavoidable, there should be a completely open draw. This would not prevent the home and aways from the previous season being reversed, they just wouldn't be in the same sequence.
As for Tim's point about the last round, I am not saying that it shouldn't be held in the one venue, I am just saying that the same teams shouldn't be playing each other there every year. Mind you, that ALSAA venue is completely crap as far as chess venues go.-, way too cramped and the lighting is awful.

Be advised that the Kilkenny 'Christmas do' is always held in February.
Can't say whether it's a late Christmas do or an early one!
We call it our annual club dinner.
Agree with you re ALSAA BTW.

mikhail

Balbriggan 5-3 Benildus.

sodacat11

mikhail wrote: »

Balbriggan 5-3 Benildus.

Surely you mean Blanchardstown????

macelligott

Armstrong R1 Elm Mount 4-4 Dublin

mikhail

sodacat11 wrote: »

Surely you mean Blanchardstown????

I do. It was that kind of night.

sodacat11

Every year we have a couple of teams (usually just promoted) who are clearly weaker than the more established Armstrong teams but this year Blanchardstown and Gonzaga "B" are clearly going to be strong enough to survive so teams like Dun Laoghaire, Rathmines, Balbriggan, Bray and TCD are all going to be dragged into the relegation dog fight. It should make for an interesting league this year!!

Tim Harding

Four matches this Saturday after which the overdogs and underdogs may be easier to spot.

Which club are you playing for this year, sodacat, or are you the hurler on the ditch?

sodacat11

I am playing for Rathmines. We have a good team of mostly young and improving players so I am hopeful that we can avoid relegation.

sodacat11

Tim Harding wrote: »

Four matches this Saturday after which the overdogs and underdogs may be easier to spot.

Which club are you playing for this year, sodacat, or are you the hurler on the ditch?

I am playing for Rathmines. We have a good team of mostly young improving players but are without a 22/2300 player to make a challenge for the title.We should avoid relegation though.
No doubt you will be asking the ICU to remove all games by Dublin Uni players from its database before the league commences?

Tim Harding

sodacat11 wrote: »

I am playing for Rathmines. We have a good team of mostly young improving players but are without a 22/2300 player to make a challenge for the title.We should avoid relegation though.
No doubt you will be asking the ICU to remove all games by Dublin Uni players from its database before the league commences?

Never thought of it. Thanks for the tip...

Past_Pawn_99

Since nobody has posted any predictions I guess I'll start:

Winner: Gonzaga A
Runner Up: Elm Mount
Third: Dublin University

Relegated: Dun Laoghaire & Balbriggan

mikhail

I expect Elm Mount will win as Gonzaga have split their strength.

sodacat11

Past_Pawn_99 wrote: »

Since nobody has posted any predictions I guess I'll start:

Winner: Gonzaga A
Runner Up: Elm Mount
Third: Dublin University

Relegated: Dun Laoghaire & Balbriggan

Dunno why such optimism for Dublin Uni, I tip them to get relegated along with Balbriggan . Gonzaga will probably win the thing again YAWNNNNNNN:rolleyes:

Past_Pawn_99

sodacat11 wrote: »

Dunno why such optimism for Dublin Uni, I tip them to get relegated along with Balbriggan . Gonzaga will probably win the thing again YAWNNNNNNN:rolleyes:

It was certainly an ambitious pick you're right!

cdeb

Trinity could do well if they can get their act together as a club. But that's been a big "if" in recent years. It doesn't matter who's in their squad if their players go to the wrong venue, or if they scratch as often as last season.

Gonzaga A v Gonzaga B will tell a lot about who'll win the Armstrong this year.

If Balbriggan have lost and not replaced Bart, it's hard to see them staying up. The other relegated team could be almost anyone. Including Benildus, if we keep losing to promoted teams

checknraise

Elm Mount have lost quite a few players.

1st Gonzaga A
2nd Gonzaga B

Relegation

Elm Mount
Balbriggan

cdeb

That's bordering on incendiary!

Retd.LoyolaCpt

cdeb wrote: »

That's bordering on incendiary!

Gonzaga A vs B postponed - players/captains at Olympiad & school championship today.

Past_Pawn_99

Dublin University 5 - 1 Dun Laoghaire

Two games to be played on Wednesday

Rathminor

Balbriggan 3.5 Rathmines 4.5

Tim Harding

cdeb wrote: »

Trinity could do well if they can get their act together as a club. But that's been a big "if" in recent years. It doesn't matter who's in their squad if their players go to the wrong venue, or if they scratch as often as last season.

Trinity is under new management this season. See first round (partial) score above...

macelligott

Armstrong R1. I’ve heard Kilkenny is losing 2.5 - 4.5 to Bray

sodacat11

Tim Harding wrote: »

Trinity is under new management this season. See first round (partial) score above...

I'm changing my relegation prediction to Balbriggan and Dun Laoghaire unless Trinity's new manager is Jose Mourinho in which case I'd stick with them.

Rathminor

Prediction,

1st Gonzaga A - even without Conor, they shouldn’t need the overseas players to retain the title
2nd Dublin University
3rd Kilkenny

If David & Alvaro play, I would revise Elm Mount up into second

Relegation:

Blanchardstown - although they have started very well in round 1
Dun Laoghaire - would need to have Tom play a lot if they are to avoid the drop

Tim Harding

Rathminor wrote: »

Prediction,

1st Gonzaga A - even without Conor, they shouldn’t need the overseas players to retain the title
2nd Dublin University
3rd Kilkenny

If David & Alvaro play, I would revise Elm Mount up into second

Relegation:

Blanchardstown - although they have started very well in round 1
Dun Laoghaire - would need to have Tom play a lot if they are to avoid the drop

Gonzaga A team does indeed still look impressive and will be hard to prepare for if they mix up their board order between 2 and 6. We play them next.

I would expect David Fitzsimons is going to play most of Elm Mount's matches but Alvaro Valdes Escobar will not be returning. He told me at the Rapid that he had finished his course of study. After acting as captain of the Chilean women's team in the olympiad, he is planning a holiday, then playing some chess in Spain before going home.

Kilkenny look strong on paper but how often will their big guns play?

Dublin are easy to underestimate because if strong foreigners arrive in town, they tend to gravitate there because they find the club's website.

Cdeb seemed to imply Balbriggan have lost Bart but he is on their declared team. Is he away temporarily?

cdeb

I had heard he was moving home. I suppose we'll see shortly.

Interesting to note Alvaro is on the Wood Green squad in the European Club Cup (Elm Mount were invited at short notice, but declined). It looks like he may be paired against St Benildus in the first round on Friday week.

Tim Harding

cdeb wrote: »

I had heard he was moving home. I suppose we'll see shortly.

Interesting to note Alvaro is on the Wood Green squad in the European Club Cup (Elm Mount were invited at short notice, but declined). It looks like he may be paired against St Benildus in the first round on Friday week.

Interesting. He did mention the Club Cup to me, so it's possible his visa allows him to return here for a while before and after that, but he seemed pretty definite he was leaving Ireland when he spoke to me mid-September. I guess he wouldn't want to be lugging all his belongings around Europe while playing tournaments.

sodacat11

It is a week since the Armstrong started and still there is no update on the Leinster Leagues website. Would it not make sense to give the captains of the Armstrong teams access to the website so that they could update the results and the league table themselves immediately after the matches finish?

mikhail

sodacat11 wrote: »

It is a week since the Armstrong started and still there is no update on the Leinster Leagues website. Would it not make sense to give the captains of the Armstrong teams access to the website so that they could update the results and the league table themselves immediately after the matches finish?

Assuming it's the same software as ever, the league controller waits for both captains to send in their results (which differ surprisingly often, usually a typo), and periodically sends an update to the overall leagues controller who updates the site. It's a slow process, more focussed on accuracy than speed. Replacing it would be a bit of a job though.

Tim Harding

mikhail wrote: »

Assuming it's the same software as ever, the league controller waits for both captains to send in their results (which differ surprisingly often, usually a typo), and periodically sends an update to the overall leagues controller who updates the site. It's a slow process, more focussed on accuracy than speed. Replacing it would be a bit of a job though.

There's scope for somebody to run an unofficial Armstrong site with scores from what is reported here and on the ICU ticker.

That is saying Balbriggan 3.5 Rathmines 4.5

cdeb

It's improved this year; one result is enough to update the site, and the second will at worst flag an issue to be resolved (eg a different result)

It's going to be slowest for round 1 when everyone's declaring their team, etc. Should be quicker thereafter. The divisional controllers now update the website automatically without any need to email the webmaster a file

Rathminor

Interesting declaration by Bray/Greystones.

Michael De Verdier is in for Bray

Colm is not on the initial Squad declared.

With Eric moved up from the Heidenfeld, Bray look very solid.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

Rathminor wrote: »

Interesting declaration by Bray/Greystones.

Michael De Verdier is in for Bray

Colm is not on the initial Squad declared.

With Eric moved up from the Heidenfeld, Bray look very solid.

David Fitzsimons seems to be taking a year off from Armstrong too. He deserves a rest after his tremendous exploits this week.

Good to see Trinity strengthened.

sodacat11

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

David Fitzsimons seems to be taking a year off from Armstrong too. He deserves a rest after his tremendous exploits this week.

Good to see Trinity strengthened.

Someone recently questioned the stamina of us "oldies" here yet now we hear that much younger players "deserve a rest" after playing chess for just over a week . I once played 140 five minute games in a 26 hour session with no sleep against a friend (Guy Lyons) that I hadn't seen for some years, things were different before the snowflake generation.

macelligott

cdeb wrote: »

It's improved this year; one result is enough to update the site, and the second will at worst flag an issue to be resolved (eg a different result).
e

This doesn’t seem to be the case. I submitted the Elm Mount result last week and it is not posted yet. The Dublin captain was a bit late with submission because he was away on business and then he had some technical difficulties submitting result. But my submission has been in for a week.

cdeb

Trust me; I'm a doctor.

Or a divisional controller, which is basically the same thing.

One result is all that's required for the divisional controller to update the website. So two steps are gone - the second result, and the leagues controller.

It may be just that the divisional controller hasn't gotten around to it yet, or that there's been work to be done elsewhere in getting all the divisions up and running (I know I've had queries)

Past_Pawn_99

Final Result:

Dublin University 7 - 1 Dun Laoghaire

sodacat11

Past_Pawn_99 wrote: »

Final Result:

Dublin University 7 - 1 Dun Laoghaire

OUCH

I may have to change my relegation predition........Dun Laoghaire and Balbriggan to go down (although Blanchardstown aren't safe either).

Tim Harding

sodacat11 wrote: »

OUCH

I may have to change my relegation predition........Dun Laoghaire and Balbriggan to go down (although Blanchardstown aren't safe either).

Well, you said you would [change it] - Mourinho is not our manager. Although he may be looking for a new job soon, he can look elsewhere.

rathminor... wrote:

Dun Laoghaire - would need to have Tom play a lot if they are to avoid the drop.

Agreed; either him or they need to recruit another 1900-2000 player who can turn out regularly. D.L. have only declared eight players so far, including Tom, and against us they played Peter Jackson who is declared on their Heidenfeld team. So if they intend to muddle through with a sub in every match it puts a lot of pressure on Tony Fox, who was one of their two players to draw.

As to the division picture as a whole, Gonzaga A v Gonzaga B needs to be played soon to be fair to the other teams, and to ensure that rounds 1 and 2 can be sent to FIDE for rating on time before the end of October.

cdeb

All Armstrong results now updated except for the postponed Gonzaga A v B

One wonders how Pawel Bratko (2212) has played on board 6, behind four players 150 points lower rated?

Edit - it's a provisional rating based on 1 game in last year's Armstrong. So that's presumably fair enough as one game is not a rating. He has no FIDE rating to go by either.

Ominous for Dún Laoghaire to be so comprehensively hammered by what's not that strong an Armstrong team (one 2000+ player)

Tim Harding

cdeb wrote: »

All Armstrong results now updated except for the postponed Gonzaga A v B

One wonders how Pawel Bratko (2212) has played on board 6, behind four players 150 points lower rated?

I don't think he has any real rating. Our captain said that 2212 was just a provisional based on one game as a sub last season and so it has no statistical validity and should not have been published.

On the FIDE list he is only 1705 blitz. That was only from one or two Irish tournaments, I think.

The division controller agreed to accept his registration at 1900 so that is the end of the matter I think. He did win his first game but we shall see how he fares against stronger opponents later.

Rathminor

The player only has the one Armstrong game on Fide from round 10 last year, so it seems fair enough to start him at 1900.

I would have been very happy to be considered a 1900 level player at the time of playing my first ratings match, as opposed to starting at circa 1000 and working upwards.

Past_Pawn_99

Gonzaga A 2 - 4 Dublin University

2 to play at later dates.

Tim Harding

I heard Elm Mount v Dun Laoghaire tonight was close too; does anyone have the final score?

Aleixei Bottino was playing the last game in the IM Norm League at the same venue, and he beat De Verdier.

According to the fixture list Rathmines v Gonzaga B is tomorrow and the other matches on Saturday.

I think Gonzaga A v B from round one will be on some time next week.