Armstrong Cup 2018-19

Joedryan

There should simply not be any "in advance" or "postponements" full stop.

Play the game on the day, you cant make it then let sub take your place, its not rocket science.

mikhail

Why? I can see the argument for banning postponements, but games played in advance don't affect anything, and facilitate people with family and jobs. Some of those people play nothing but the leagues - weekenders are not easy to mix with family life - and you would drive them out of the game entirely for what, some anal fixation on the league tables being neat and tidy?

Tim Harding

Joedryan is right.
I have never been involved in any other league that allowed postponements or advance games.
That includes two seasons as captain of a team that won the London league division one.

You had to field all players on the day - ten or twelve, I forget exactly how many. We never defaulted a board and I don't recall opponents being short either. In the 1980s the only exceptions allowed in the Armstrong were for players representing Ireland in an olympiad.

I only played an advance game last Saturday for the team's sake. Because I was going to be abroad and the opposition asked for a game to be played in advance, which saved a sub having to go to Balbriggan. I would never have requested the advance game myself.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

I disagree.

I would argue that rearrangements keep the league fair in that each team is more likely to play a similar slate of opponents. For instance, the relegation race was not fair last year as Dun Laoghaire played a 4-man Trinity team.

Having spoken to the Trinity captain this week, it seems like they only had 4-5 players available for the Balbriggan game which would seem unfair to Dun Laoghaire for whom they had a full team.

I assume the counter-argument is "well, tough" but I think the positives outweigh the negatives.

However, I do think there should be a rule to limit rearrangements to within a week of the fixture (before or after).

Tim Harding

Well, obviously I don't know what the Trinity captain said to you but I am sure we would have been able to field a full team in Balbriggan on the day if necessary. A couple of our former players working abroad were being lined up to come to Ireland that weekend if necessary (may not be the case now), and Luke himself had decided he might withdraw from a tournament abroad that he had entered.

The situation in 2017 with Dun Laoghaire was exceptional due to the failure of the student captain to do his job and he was replaced.

This year our match with D.L. we could have asked for a postponement for Ioana, who was away at the olympiad as women's captain, but we fielded a strong enough team without her.

I also don't think this "fair to other teams" argument washes really because the league is played over such a protracted period that some clubs have strong players available part of the year only.

Especially Dublin CC who have often had visiting overseas players for short periods and one or two notorious clubs who have been known to import overseas stars for occasional matches.

All leagues (including 4NCL, Bundesliga etc) do have this certain element of availability affecting team strengths from one round to another.

Moreover was it fair to us that Ms. Gora played against me but not against your team?

Retd.LoyolaCpt

Tim, I didn't want to get too specific but I guess I'll have to be. You're being hypocritical on your last two criticisms of the league.

First, you sided with Sodacat in the last argument on "games being drawn without being played" - despite having done this yourself. In my experience, this is a very small sample of games in the Armstrong (maybe 1 every 3-4 seasons) so you having done it is significant in terms of the argument.

Second, Trinity have played 26 games so far this season and at least 7 have been rearranged, including one of your own. So to say that you didn't rearrange Ioana is really not relevant. You've done it plenty and will be doing it more as we've had a request for 4 rearrangements from your team for our match.

If you think these are such big deals, stamp it out in your club.

By the time I play my fifth game (against Trinity), I'll have rearranged 4 games - each to suit my opposition. We're the new boys to the league and think its the courteous thing to do and hope the favour will be repaid in future years.

I think it is clearly better for all concerned that all games be played and no defaults given and, ideally, no outrageously subpar teams are turned out. Teams like Balbriggan would be forced to give the odd default without some wriggle room.

I think its absolutely fair that Balbriggan used an 1800 former regular squad player.

I really don't know how in one comment you can intimate that we should be more like the Bundesliga, 4NCL etc - but then say in another statement that some clubs are "notorious" for bringing in foreign stars. In fact, I hear Trinity are planning to bring in the odd player; if not this year, then next season.

sodacat11

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

First, you sided with Sodacat in the last argument on "games being drawn without being played" - despite having done this yourself. In my experience, this is a very small sample of games in the Armstrong (maybe 1 every 3-4 seasons) so you having done it is significant in terms of the argument..

I know of two players who agreed draws without playing each other last season and the season before and I also know of another who used to (and maybe still does) agree draws in a number of his games every season without actually playing them so 1 every 3-4 seasons is not accurate.
It certainly takes away from the atmosphere and the excitement when full Armstrong teams aren't present on the night but I can understand the reasons for postponements and playing games in advance. My solution would be that if a game must be postponed or played in advance it should be within three days of the match itself and I would only allow each club to avail of this facility for no more than one game per round and not at all for the final round.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

Kilkenny 5-2 Dublin - I think there is an unfortunate reason for the last game not being played last week which I didn't press on.

Fair enough, Sodacat- will take your word for it. Its something I might have done as a younger man but wouldn't anymore.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

Trinity 17.5/26
Gonzaga B 16.5/24
Gonzaga A 16.5/24
Kilkenny 14/23
Bray 14/24
Blanch 12.5/24
Elm Mount 10.5/24
Benildus 10.5/24
Dublin 10/23
Rathmines 8.5/24
Balbriggan 8/26
Dun Laoghaire 5.5/24

Tim Harding

mikhail wrote: »

Why? I can see the argument for banning postponements, but games played in advance don't affect anything, and facilitate people with family and jobs. Some of those people play nothing but the leagues - weekenders are not easy to mix with family life - and you would drive them out of the game entirely for what, some anal fixation on the league tables being neat and tidy?

I agree that advance games are less of an issue but it still affects team spirit.

Apart from other issues, a large number of people's ratings are going out of date because Rounds 1 and 2 should have been rated for 30 October and it only takes one missing result to delay everything for a month (both FIDE and ICU).

Division controller Gerry Smith has just warned captains that unapproved "adjournments", i.e. postponements, will be scored 0-0 and I think he is right.

Joedryan

As I remember when I played the Armstrong I used to get phone calls for almost half my games to re-arrange them. Used to turn up on wet and windy nights in empty club halls to play.

In the end I got kind of fed up of it and one year decided to just take a stance - if the phone call came, didnt matter who it was, I just said "sorry I dont re-arrange matches anymore". This led to a few shocked re-actions on the other side of the phone, but in my opinion nobody should be put in the position of having to deal with that rubbish.

Play the games on the day, its simple and will lead to a better league for everybody in the end.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

Benildus 3-5 Gonzaga B

ishidaogo

DL 3 Blanch 4

macelligott

Armstrong R4. Rathmines 2.5-5.5 Elm Mount

sodacat11

macelligott wrote: »

Armstrong R4. Rathmines 2.5-5.5 Elm Mount

A strange match, it was looking more like 4-4 for a long time. We (Rathmines) are in the relegation mix for sure now.

macelligott

sodacat11 wrote: »

A strange match, it was looking more like 4-4 for a long time. We (Rathmines) are in the relegation mix for sure now.

I agree with Sodacat11 that for most of the match 4-4 seemed likely. Indeed, it was not inconceivable that Rathmines might win!

sodacat11

macelligott wrote: »

I agree with Sodacat11 that for most of the match 4-4 seemed likely. Indeed, it was not inconceivable that Rathmines might win!

It was our first match this season where all eight games were played at the same time and it really does make a difference as far as atmosphere and excitement goes. I am beginning to agree with those who say that no postponements or pre played games should be allowed. Every club has lower rated players that can be brought in as replacements.

macelligott

I’ve been unable to access www.icu.ie or www.ratings.icu.ie over the last few days. Are others having the same problem? Is there some issue?

Tim Harding

macelligott wrote: »

I’ve been unable to access www.icu.ie or www.ratings.icu.ie over the last few days. Are others having the same problem? Is there some issue?

See the posting by "HaraldSchmidt" on the 19th in the ICU Ratings Site thread.

HaraldSchmidt

Both sites are back up.
The credit card of a former webmaster expired, and it took a few days to switch over to a new credit card.
Amazingly, you can never just offer to pay a bill on these sites, you need to get permission from the owner to pay the bill.

Past_Pawn_99

Balbriggan 4.5 - 3.5 Trinity

macelligott

Past_Pawn_99 wrote: »

Balbriggan 4.5 - 3.5 Trinity

A bit of a disaster for TCD.

cdeb

A Gonzaga 1-2 looking increasingly possible

macelligott

Kilkenny - Gonzaga A anybody?

Retd.LoyolaCpt

macelligott wrote: »

Kilkenny - Gonzaga A anybody?

Round 4: Gonzaga A 4.5-2.5 Kilkenny

Full strength KK:
Baburin 0-1 Collins on board 1. Breaks their draw streak.

macelligott

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

Round 4: Gonzaga A 4.5-2.5 Kilkenny

Full strength KK:
Collins 1-0 Baburin on board 1. Breaks their draw streak.

Which game is postponed ?

Retd.LoyolaCpt

macelligott wrote: »

Which game is postponed ?

Li-Quigley - not sure of colours. Monday night I think.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

Li-Quigley - not sure of colours. Monday night I think.

Dublin 5.5-2.5 Bray

Tim Harding

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

Li-Quigley - not sure of colours. Monday night I think.

Has Li v Quigley been played yet?

FIDE and ICU rating of rounds 3 and 4 is apparently delayed by that missing result.

Round 5 is due to be played this coming Saturday except for Blanchardstown v Gonzaga A next Monday.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

Tim Harding wrote: »

Has Li v Quigley been played yet?

FIDE and ICU rating of rounds 3 and 4 is apparently delayed by that missing result.

Round 5 is due to be played this coming Saturday except for Blanchardstown v Gonzaga A next Monday.

I was wrong - Li away at youth Olympiad. Rounds 3-4 will be rated in time for January.