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Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 568 ✭✭✭rgodard80a


    hcf500 wrote: »
    I know their are people who disagree with my beliefs. I don't think they are all bad people or anything like that.

    Thanks for saying we're not bad.
    I don't think trans are bad, but more of a psychiatric disorder.
    Can't have the patients running the asylum. (if you propose non-elected trans TD's)

    I see conservatism as an attempt to protect society.
    Liberalism and in this case the concept of legally enforced change against peoples beliefs will get push back from society.


    Mod-Banned


  • Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭hcf500


    rgodard80a wrote: »
    Thanks for saying we're not bad.
    I don't think trans are bad, but more of a psychiatric disorder.
    Can't have the patients running the asylum.

    I see conservatism as an attempt to protect society.
    Liberalism and in this case the concept of legally enforced change against peoples beliefs will get push back from society.

    "Can't have the patients running the asylum." You should be banned for that sort of transphobic comment. It is highly insulting to people that are not gender conforming.


  • Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    Transgender is an umbrella term encompassing different groups of transgender types, transsexuals are those who have changed sex. You seemed not to have grasped this fact and understand the different subsets that belong to being transgender.

    Klaaaz, maybe you could give us tutorial here - explain what the different groups under the ‘Transgender umbrella’ are, and what they mean.

    Because when you say ‘transsexuals are those who have changed sex, it seems to imply that other transgender people haven’t changed sex.

    So a trans man isn’t always a man, and a trans woman isn’t always a woman.
    The message isn’t exactly clear.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 568 ✭✭✭rgodard80a


    hcf500 wrote: »
    "Can't have the patients running the asylum." You should be banned for that sort of transphobic comment. It is highly insulting to people that are not gender conforming.

    No... that's not your call.

    But just proves what people say here, say the wrong thing and you're banned, social media attacked, etc...
    This is a dialog, and threatening to report or ban especially when you are an obvious re-reg, is blatant censorship of opinions.
    Or do you not believe in diversity of opinions ?

    I can somewhat try to empathise with the trans position.
    Maybe they're failed males that fantasized too much about females or the benefits or power they perceive that females have.
    But I still see it as a pathology. A disfunctional state of mind.


  • Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Candamir wrote: »
    Because when you say ‘transsexuals are those who have changed sex, it seems to imply that other transgender people haven’t changed sex.

    So a trans man isn’t always a man, and a trans woman isn’t always a woman.
    The message isn’t exactly clear.
    I think most people, and dictionaries, define gender and sex in different ways. You can be a man and a female, or a woman and a male, because gender is socially constructed but not sex.

    Some trans people object to this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    hcf500 wrote: »
    I know their are people who disagree with my beliefs. I don't think they are all bad people or anything like that. Just misguided by listening to Trumps empty promises. Bernie or Biden will make for a good change but I would prefer Kamala Harris or even Liz Warren. Anyway back on topic, A lot of this transphobia is being driven by Trump and his admin. Its clear to see in his policies


    How is that back on topic? It’s the same topic! :D

    I’d hold Trump responsible for... actually, no, I wouldn’t hold him responsible for anything as he’s a useless prick, but what his election represents is the antithesis to Hillary’s disingenuous efforts to appeal to identity politics - she literally obliterated any support she had every time she opened her mouth, and I say that as someone who used to admire Hillary’s work in the areas of human rights and family law.

    What I think you’re referring to as “transphobia” though, is people’s refusal to accept the political ideology of a minority. It’s inevitable that as any social group gains notoriety, their ideology is going to be subject to greater scrutiny.


  • Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭hcf500


    How is that back on topic? It’s the same topic! :D

    I’d hold Trump responsible for... actually, no, I wouldn’t hold him responsible for anything as he’s a useless prick, but what his election represents is the antithesis to Hillary’s disingenuous efforts to appeal to identity politics - she literally obliterated any support she had every time she opened her mouth, and I say that as someone who used to admire Hillary’s work in the areas of human rights and family law.

    What I think you’re referring to as “transphobia” though, is people’s refusal to accept the political ideology of a minority. It’s inevitable that as any social group gains notoriety, their ideology is going to be subject to greater scrutiny.

    All meaningless word. Hillary had the presidency stolen from her. She is the rightful potus. There will be too much scrutiny on Trump in 2020 and the Russians will not be able to collude with him as a result. He should be impeached immediately for collusion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    There is no consensus within the scientific and medical community with regard to an effective treatment for gender dysphoria. The idea of medical and surgical treatments are being pushed by political consensus among a small lobby group at this point, as science and medicine are investigating human development, societies and culture further afield than your limited perspective.

    Medical and surgical treatments have been carried out on trans people since the 1950's. Nothing new. (you don't believe in science so why quote them all of a sudden??)

    I see you dodged the question as usual, quick to not to give your opinion. Asking again...

    What is your opinion on self-ID for changing gender, you never gave one and have been extremely silent on posters who oppose people changing gender without medical intervention. Go on, give us your opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »

    Asking again...

    Can you answer this one for me Klaaaz, thanks.

    Candamir wrote: »
    Klaaaz, maybe you could give us tutorial here - explain what the different groups under the ‘Transgender umbrella’ are, and what they mean.

    Because when you say ‘transsexuals are those who have changed sex, it seems to imply that other transgender people haven’t changed sex.

    So a trans man isn’t always a man, and a trans woman isn’t always a woman.
    The message isn’t exactly clear.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 568 ✭✭✭rgodard80a


    hcf500 wrote: »
    All meaningless word.

    If you really want a dialog, you wouldn't threaten banning.
    Tell me, did you report a post here?

    Your credibility and decency would go out the window if you did.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    hcf500 wrote: »
    All meaningless word. Hillary had the presidency stolen from her. She is the rightful potus. There will be too much scrutiny on Trump in 2020 and the Russians will not be able to collude with him as a result. He should be impeached immediately for collusion.

    The Trump thread is somewhere else.

    Transphobia is a made up word. Nobody is ''phobic'' of trans.

    Up until very recently gender dysphoria was considered a mental health issue, much like any other body dysphoric disorder (which still are) but it was declassified eventually to gender incongruence.
    It has been tricky to have had the condition declassified from medical concern as its sufferers still insist that their treatment aught to be paid for on the public purse under health services. If it is not a condition then what is one to treat? How one expects to ''treat'' something that is not pathological is another incoherence.

    Also the question of appropriate treatment is not being adequately addressed. Sterility and impotence are serious side effects of present treatment, not to mention increased cancer and cardiovascular risk and loss of bone density and failure of the frontal lobes to properly develop in young people after treatment.

    I believe there are many underlying causes of gender dysphoria from potential genetics, which would be interesting to assess, to abuse response ie psychological discomfort to xeno-hormones to social/psychic contagion to autogynophelia to fashion. It is a very complicated area with very complicated implications that cannot be shouted down / bullied into silence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    rgodard80a wrote: »
    If you want to claim progress, go ahead.
    It doesn't affect me personally, but I can still have a say in proposed changes in society.
    Trans women truly claiming or expecting to be recognised as real women, falls under a broad category of bullshit which also includes anti-vaxxers, anti-evolutionists and flat earthers.
    Something which merits comment.

    So says the science denier! There has been 2 public consultations on the Irish Gender Recognition Act, where was your opposition?
    rgodard80a wrote: »
    I never said there was, in any of my posts.

    You claimed "overwhelming support of the majority" and based that on "no objections".
    The absence of chalk doesn't prove the presence of cheese.

    No majority opinion for your suggestion, go ahead and live in that dictatorship where you deny the democratic will of the people.
    rgodard80a wrote: »
    It's not "suddenly" a key issue, the issue which spawned this thread is the people losing their jobs or impacts in their career from their more scientific and intuitive opinions on the subject.

    They never lost their job in the UK, their contract wasn't renewed. Don't recall anyone losing their jobs in Ireland yet where the Gender Recognition Act came in 2015.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    hcf500 wrote: »
    All meaningless word. Hillary had the presidency stolen from her. She is the rightful potus. There will be too much scrutiny on Trump in 2020 and the Russians will not be able to collude with him as a result. He should be impeached immediately for collusion.


    Nope, nobody had the presidency stolen from them. Hillary handed the presidency to Trump on a silver platter because she tried to appeal to “minorities”, because for some only God knows reason, some people are of the belief that all of these “minority” groups share the same opinions of each other like there’s some solidarity between them and Trump was their common enemy? Hillary found out to her cost that they don’t, she tried to play the identity politics card and lost. Trump literally won by default after Hillary tanked her own campaign. Fcukall to do with the Russians when you’re trying to convince yourself that the reason she lost is because voters were misguided. Even two years later Hillary was still shooting herself in the foot -

    Speaking at 2018’s India Today Conclave in Mumbai over the past weekend, Clinton said that voters who turned out for President Trump were following a campaign that was “looking backwards,” while those who supported her were fueled by optimism for America’s future.

    “If you look at the map of the United States, there is all that red in the middle, places where Trump won,” she said. “What that map doesn’t show you is that I won the places that won two thirds of America’s Gross Domestic product. I won the places that are optimistic, diverse, dynamic, moving forward. And his whole campaign, Make America Great Again, was looking backwards. You don’t like black people getting rights, you don’t like women getting jobs, you don’t want to see that Indian American succeeding more than you are, whatever that problem is, I am going to solve it.”


    As it turns out, it’s the people who voted for Trump now have every reason to be optimistic for America’s future, not because Trump, but because at least it’s not someone who thinks of them like it turns out Hillary does.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    I think most people, and dictionaries, define gender and sex in different ways. You can be a man and a female, or a woman and a male, because gender is socially constructed but not sex.

    Some trans people object to this.

    I think thats fair enough. Ish.
    (Its the use of words like "female penis" or "male vagina" though ive a problem with, or people accepting a man having a baby when these are biological or sex organs when i have to arch an eyebrow and put my glasses on my head).

    Some trans people object to what aspect?
    That they can change gender and sex?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    Can you answer this one for me Klaaaz, thanks.

    No, as I've told you in this thread and many other threads about it the latest if I recall 2 nights ago. Maybe i'll change my mind when One Eyed Jack decides to answer my question on self ID gender recognition.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    klaaaz wrote:
    People have changed sex for decades, it's nothing new or part of a mystical ideology.

    Just a quick point... No. No they haven't.

    Nobody ever has


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    No, as I've told you in this thread and many other threads about it the latest if I recall 2 nights ago. Maybe i'll change my mind when One Eyed Jack decides to answer my question on self ID gender recognition.


    You’ll answer another posters question when I answer your question?

    Classic deflection there klaaaz, whether or not you choose to answer other posters questions has nothing to do with whether or not I answer your questions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    hcf500 wrote: »
    All meaningless word. Hillary had the presidency stolen from her. She is the rightful potus. There will be too much scrutiny on Trump in 2020 and the Russians will not be able to collude with him as a result. He should be impeached immediately for collusion.

    There was no collusion though? And how exactly did Hillary have it stolen? (please don't argue the popular vote)

    What Trump brings to 2020 election?

    - Better than even the most skeptic economist predicted GDP
    - The lowest unemployment rates in American history
    - improved trade with Mexico and domestic neighbors (despite all the "wall" publicity

    Meanwhile you have Bernie Sanders and AOC undoing a lot of support for Democrats with attacks on Amazon, the disastrous green new deal

    To be honest I think Trump is in a hell of a lot better of a position for re-election than he was 3 years ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Just a quick point... No. No they haven't.

    Nobody ever has

    There may come a time with CRISPR-type gene editing tecnology that people will be able to change sex but since this would likely have to be done - and to the over 6500 genes that influence sex - in the first weeks after conception we would be into seriously dodgy transhumanist territory by then.
    Meanwhile Dr Tandy Aye, a paediatric endocrinologist, has recently in a Ted talk avowed openly that a mother can ''tell'' upon being handed their new-born if they are transgender. Forgive me if I find some of the scientists rather compromised on this subject!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Just a quick point... No. No they haven't.

    Nobody ever has

    Yes they have.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20544095
    bbc wrote:
    Christine Jorgensen: 60 years of sex change ops

    Don't read if you get upset and sensitive at the content.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    No, as I've told you in this thread and many other threads about it the latest if I recall 2 nights ago. Maybe i'll change my mind when One Eyed Jack decides to answer my question on self ID gender recognition.

    You told me two nights ago you won’t answer my question?

    I thought you wanted me to understand where you’re coming from, and the reasons my ideas are misguided.

    That makes no sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Yes they have.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20544095


    Don't read if you get upset and sensitive at the content.

    No mention of gene manipulation so that is not actually changing sex


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Here is an article about how a distinction between sex and gender should be made in scientific literature to avoid confusion. Bloody science denying scientists and their crazy theories

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK222296/

    That's a book from 20 years ago. Those scientists(2,617 of them) in the latest bulletin stated
    There are no genetic tests that can unambiguously determine gender, or even sex.

    Yes, bloody science denying scientists and their crazy theories!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    What is your opinion on self-ID for changing gender, you never gave one and have been extremely silent on posters who oppose people changing gender without medical intervention. Go on, give us your opinion.


    Is this what you’re referring to klaaaz? What do you mean what’s my opinion on self-ID for changing gender? People can self-ID however they want. I really don’t care as I’m not affected by their choice to ID themselves however they wish. If they want me to agree with them that they are whatever they self-ID as, then we could run into issues.

    Actually I have given my opinion on this before, and you participated in that thread then too! I’ve always maintained that people who identify themselves as transgender are a separate gender category to men and women and they should have equal rights in law the same as men and women have equal rights, and they should have specific rights in the same way men and women have specific rights as a consequence of their biological sex and their gender.

    There are a number of sex and gender specific laws in Irish legislation, and it wouldn’t take much tweaking to afford people who identify themselves as transgender equal rights to men and women in the interests of promoting a fair and just society.

    That would require you drop the pretence about humans having the capacity to change their sex though, because that just isn’t humanly possible in any context, particularly when you’re relying on science and medicine to frame your beliefs - beliefs which only hold to be true as long as you continue to distort and ignore the existence of other people who contradict your beliefs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    That's a book from 20 years ago. Those scientists(2,617 of them) in the latest bulletin stated


    Yes, bloody science denying scientists and their crazy theories!

    Once again, for those in the cheap seats,

    ‘There are no genetic tests that can unambiguously determine gender, or even sex’

    This statement is true, because there are some intersex conditions which are difficult to determine sex, owing to a novel collection of chromosomes and/or genes.

    Intersex. Not Transgender.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    klaaaz wrote:
    Yes they have.

    From your article:

    "Everyone is both sexes in varying degrees. I am more of a woman than a man… Of course I can never have children but this does not mean that I cannot have natural sexual intercourse - I am very much in the position right now of a woman who has a hysterectomy," she said in 1958.

    That's the ramblings of a madman.

    You might as well cite Fritzl as the cornerstone of parenthood.

    It proves nothing


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    You told me two nights ago you won’t answer my question?

    I thought you wanted me to understand where you’re coming from, and the reasons my ideas are misguided.

    That makes no sense.

    I had answered you many times on that topic. Do you think i'm naive to think you're trying to "understand me"? Ha no! Go back to 2 nights ago where we discussed the topic of medical and non-medical trans in the context of your question.
    What do you mean what’s my opinion on self-ID for changing gender?

    Do you believe that people can change gender through self-identification? Is it possible in your eyes for a person to change gender?
    Some posters do not believe a person can change gender, they are adamant in their view. All you gave me as an answer was a history lesson on transgender rights.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Zorya wrote: »
    I think they are specifically intertwined.

    I think they're often intertwined, but they also have very distinct strands and present very distinct issues for society. They're primarily intertwined because they were both started by the same political faction five or six years ago - the pro-censorship / deplatforming fad which began in earnest around 2013/14 was very much pushed by the same crowd which began militantly demanding an end to the concept of biological gender, again around 2013/14. But they've both ballooned outwards now such that both issues have sucked in neighbouring issues, and that why IMO they need to be dealt with separately in terms of debate. Having one thread to discuss both simultaneously is quite chaotic and hard to follow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    From your article:

    "Everyone is both sexes in varying degrees. I am more of a woman than a man… Of course I can never have children but this does not mean that I cannot have natural sexual intercourse - I am very much in the position right now of a woman who has a hysterectomy," she said in 1958.

    That's the ramblings of a madman.

    You might as well cite Fritzl as the cornerstone of parenthood.

    It proves nothing

    It's not my article, it's the BBC. Are all transgender women who have surgery "madmen"?


  • Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    I had answered you many times on that topic. Do you think i'm naive to think you're trying to "understand me"? Ha no! Go back to 2 nights ago where we discussed the topic of medical and non-medical trans in the context of your question.

    No Klaaaz, you didn’t answer me anytime. In fact you deliberately went out of your way to skirt around the question and not answer it.

    If there was a common understanding what the words were using meant, it would be much easier for everyone.

    The good doctor in that 20 year old book had a very good point indeed.


    I’ll leave my question here again. Just in case.
    Klaaaz, maybe you could give us tutorial here - explain what the different groups under the ‘Transgender umbrella’ are, and what they mean.

    Because when you say ‘transsexuals are those who have changed sex, it seems to imply that other transgender people haven’t changed sex.

    So a trans man isn’t always a man, and a trans woman isn’t always a woman.
    The message isn’t exactly clear.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Some posters do not believe a person can change gender, they are adamant in their view.

    Every poster that I remember in this thread knows that a person can change their gender identity. Most posters know that a person cannot change their sex.

    You have to be careful too when you so speak firmly about post surgical distinctions, because more people identifying as transgender are moving away from affirmation surgery and even hormones, because of the huge negative effects of such actions on their already healthy bodies.
    I think it is really good that there is the beinnings of a movement for trans-identifying people to move away from hormones and surgery and relying on gender expression to naturally and healthfully fulfil themselves because the effects of the medical treatments are really uncertain. This lends more credence to the concept then of distinct trans rights - gender spaces, classifications in sport and so on etc - rather than affording one category of people rights at the obvious expense of another.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Do you believe that people can change gender through self-identification? Is it possible in your eyes for a person to change gender?
    Some posters do not believe a person can change gender, they are adamant in their view. All you gave me as an answer was a history lesson on transgender rights.


    Do you really not see the glaring and rather obvious flaw in your own question? It’s a question of self-identification with regard to gender. Therefore it simply doesn’t matter what I believe, what you believe, or what anyone else believes other than the person themselves. Because as I’ve pointed out many times (and you can’t deny you haven’t noticed) - gender is an entirely social construct.

    That’s why it doesn’t matter what society a person lives in, some societies recognise only two genders, commonly understood in Western society as the gender binary paradigm. However, in other societies and cultures, they recognise many more genders, because gender identity is a construct of language. What is indisputable however, is the fact that there are only two sexes in human biology - male, and female.

    People who are intersex are not necessarily transgender - they are either primarily male or female, and they may possess the organs of the opposite sex. This is not even in the same ball park as being transgender, because most intersex persons are perfectly capable of making the distinction that they are of either the male or female sex. It’s currently a rather controversial issue among people who are intersex and the medical and scientific community, who some intersex people regard as violating their human rights and subjecting people who are intersex to unnecessary and unethical surgical procedures to “fix” what Western medicine regards as a problem that needs fixing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    hcf500 wrote: »
    It will happen in time. Mark my words. The whole world is feeling the negative impact from Trump. It was on a very progressive ladder until 2016. Once 2020 comes and he is out, there will be a worldwide shift. We need more TDs in Ireland like Pelosi, Omar and AOC. Diversity is very important in politics.

    Good ****ing grief I hope not. The last thing Ireland needs is any more importation of American politics whether that be from the right or left of the political spectrum. .. Or politicians for that matter.

    I'd take Ruth Coppinger, RBB and Paul Murphy over any of those you mentioned as at least they are relatively old school far-leftists as opposed to the new modern identity obsessed leftists we see in America.


  • Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    Do you really not see the glaring and rather obvious flaw in your own question? It’s a question of self-identification with regard to gender. Therefore it simply doesn’t matter what I believe, what you believe, or what anyone else believes other than the person themselves. Because as I’ve pointed out many times (and you can’t deny you haven’t noticed) - gender is an entirely social construct.

    You only have to look as far as the H.R 5 Equality Act in the US to see this.
    GENDER IDENTITY.—The term ‘gender identity’ means the gender-related identity, appearance, mannerisms, or other gender-related characteristics of an individual, regardless of the individual’s designated sex at birth.

    This was the best legal definition they could come up with for the bill.


  • Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think thats fair enough. Ish.
    (Its the use of words like "female penis" or "male vagina" though ive a problem with, or people accepting a man having a baby when these are biological or sex organs when i have to arch an eyebrow and put my glasses on my head).

    Some trans people object to what aspect?
    That they can change gender and sex?
    I've seen trans people and other advocates for trans rights deny the distinction between gender and sex, asserting that there is no ambiguity, than a trans woman is both a woman and a female, without distinction as to whether they've had surgery.

    I understand why a trans person would object to being classified in the sex of their birth, but that's a biological classification. It's a statement of your chromosomes, which are almost always unambiguous and never amendable.

    Thankfully it doesn't usually arise. There's almost never a need to refer to anyone's sex (as opposed to their gender pronouns)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    Every poster that I remember in this thread knows that a person can change their gender identity.

    Not this poster who apparently thinks they speaks for the majority! I don't recall you objecting to this posters's statements today.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110139495&postcount=900
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110140837&postcount=921
    eagle eye wrote:
    The majority of people think that a trans person is still the gender they were born.
    eagle eye wrote:
    The large majority of people believe that you remain the gender you are born.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    I think they're often intertwined, but they also have very distinct strands and present very distinct issues for society. They're primarily intertwined because they were both started by the same political faction five or six years ago - the pro-censorship / deplatforming fad which began in earnest around 2013/14 was very much pushed by the same crowd which began militantly demanding an end to the concept of biological gender, again around 2013/14. But they've both ballooned outwards now such that both issues have sucked in neighbouring issues, and that why IMO they need to be dealt with separately in terms of debate. Having one thread to discuss both simultaneously is quite chaotic and hard to follow.

    I get your points and it is interesting the correlation you note (2013/2014) which I had not thought about.
    A thread without specific context - eg sports rights, or the question of censorship - would likely devolve though, even faster.

    If one keeps in mind that the company wrote to Forstater that she "stated that a man’s internal feeling that he is a woman has no basis in material reality'' and that ''A lot of people would find that offensive and exclusionary”, I find it helps to hold the context together.

    Material reality are the central words, in my opinion. It's a bit ironic and sad that ''material'' relates etymologically to ''mater'' or mother when even gendered language is considered by some to be offensive now. We all come from mothers and are part of the maternal matrix of matter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Do you really not see the glaring and rather obvious flaw in your own question? It’s a question of self-identification with regard to gender. Therefore it simply doesn’t matter what I believe, what you believe, or what anyone else believes other than the person themselves. Because as I’ve pointed out many times (and you can’t deny you haven’t noticed) - gender is an entirely social construct.

    That’s why it doesn’t matter what society a person lives in, some societies recognise only two genders, commonly understood in Western society as the gender binary paradigm. However, in other societies and cultures, they recognise many more genders, because gender identity is a construct of language.

    Now you're giving me another history lesson which doesn't answer the question. We know western society is binary, I never asked you if it was or was not! The rest of your post was not applicable to the question asked.

    Is it possible in your eyes for a person to change gender? (self_ID or not) Some posters think a person cannot change gender and some posters think a person can change gender, what is your view? Yay or nay?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Not this poster who apparently thinks they speaks for the majority! I don't recall you objecting to this posters's statements today.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110139495&postcount=900
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110140837&postcount=921


    What’s to object to?

    The majority of people in Western society do believe that people remain the gender they are born.

    People who experience gender dysphoria are in a minority in any Western society, and the vast majority of people don’t even give issues regarding sex and gender incongruity a second thought.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    What’s to object to?

    The majority of people in Western society do believe that people remain the gender they are born.

    So yourself and Zorya disagree on this.
    People who experience gender dysphoria are in a minority in any Western society, and the vast majority of people don’t even give issues regarding sex and gender incongruity a second thought.

    We know this, it's actually quite good that you're giving a history lesson and a lesson in current affairs to other posters who haven't a clue about the issue. (not sarcasm! ;) )


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Is it possible in your eyes for a person to change gender? (self_ID or not) Some posters think a person cannot change gender and some posters think a person can change gender, what is your view? Yay or nay?


    It’s possible for anyone to identify themselves as whatever gender they wish. I don’t have to agree with them that I perceive them to be the gender they want me to perceive them to be, but because it is self-identified, which is the crucial point you seem to keep missing - my opinion with regard to how someone chooses to identify themselves is neither here nor there unless they choose to make it public and wish to be acknowledged as their preferred gender and wish for society to acknowledge them as their preferred gender.

    They can identify themselves as the tooth fairy for all I care, but if they try to pull my teeth, they’d better leave €2 under my pillow first.


  • Site Banned Posts: 51 ✭✭Brendan Delaney


    Imagine mutilating yourself with crude surgery and then having to live the rest of your life knowing you will never pass as a woman?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    So yourself and Zorya disagree on this.


    Myself and Zorya disagree on plenty of things. You still don’t have a point. You’re still thinking in terms of identity politics where you imagine there are “conservative science deniers” who disagree with you, and “liberal scientific and medical community” who agree with you.

    The conservative science deniers apparently are all in agreement with each other, and the liberal scientific and medical community are all in agreement with each other, and everything revolves around you.

    I suppose whatever helps you sleep easier at night.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,707 ✭✭✭Bobblehats


    Zorya wrote: »
    There is no compelling proof that biological sex is other than chromosomal. There are fragmentary pieces of research from small studies that claim possible longer androgen receptors or such like, though these do not account for epigenetics. There is in fact extremely limited research as of yet in the whole area,which is problematic if only because there are wider indications of harms being definitely caused to other organisms from endogenous xeno-chemicals. EG fish and reptiles with confused sex genotypes.
    It would be brilliant f there was concentrated research that is unbiased and empirical in this whole area - and most especially in the realm of childhood treatment of dysphoria and long term follow up on the harms being caused by hormonal and surgical treatment.
    For example one surgeon I read about recently states that he is seeing a surge in metastasising tumours among young people which he is speculating could be attributed to excessive hormone treatment in youth. Surgeons say people have terrible problems with neo-vaginas because there is almost universally bad smells and bacterial infections. Reports from Tavistock recently say that treatment increases dysphoria and concommitant mental issues such as anger, anbxiety and depression.
    This whole area is vastly under-researched. It should be otherwise. It is important given the dreadful harm that is being casually done under the auspices of being ''nice''.
    I already suggested that in the meantime it is best to go with the Occam's Razor approach of chromosomal sex until proven otherwise.

    :confused: Critical stinking???


  • Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    So in the absence of an answer from Klaaaz, I’ll lay out my answer to my own question


    My understanding of it is that transsexuals are people who have had some procedure which makes them appear closer to their preferred gender.

    The terms ‘gender’ and ‘sex’ were in the past often used interchangeably, however ‘gender’ has been used more recently to describe how a person identifies, while ‘sex’ refers to a persons biology.

    Transgender people are those who identify as a different gender to their biological sex.
    They may or may not opt to undergo a social, medical or surgical transition.

    In Ireland, people can self identify as their preferred gender, and do not need certification from medical professionals, or have undergone any kind of transition, social, medical or surgical.
    They can get a gender recognition certificate, which legally recognises their preferred gender.

    A Gender recognition certificate legally changes a persons sex, and they can also apply to have their birth certificate changed to reflect their preferred gender. This gender is annotated in the ‘sex’ column of the birth certificate. (There is no ‘gender’ column).
    This legal change affords them the same rights as their chosen sex.

    Therefore:
    A trans man is legally a man, and a trans woman is legally a woman. They don’t have to have a ‘sex change’ - (more properly referred to as Gender reassignment, or gender affirmation surgery.) - be a transsexual.

    Gender affirmation surgery (or medical treatments to affirm gender) do not alter a persons biological sex.

    While for the vast majority of time, there is no issue or conflict, there are instances these new rights can conflict with the rights of non transgender people.
    This is an area that needs to be discussed fairly, openly, and without fear of censure.


    How did I do?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Candamir wrote: »
    So in the absence of an answer from Klaaaz, I’ll lay out my answer to my own question


    My understanding of it is that transsexuals are people who have had some procedure which makes them appear closer to their preferred gender.

    The terms ‘gender’ and ‘sex’ were in the past often used interchangeably, however ‘gender’ has been used more recently to describe how a person identifies, while ‘sex’ refers to a persons biology.

    Transgender people are those who identify as a different gender to their biological sex.
    They may or may not opt to undergo a social, medical or surgical transition.

    In Ireland, people can self identify as their preferred gender, and do not need certification from medical professionals, or have undergone any kind of transition, social, medical or surgical.
    They can get a gender recognition certificate, which legally recognises their preferred gender.

    A Gender recognition certificate legally changes a persons sex, and they can also apply to have their birth certificate changed to reflect their preferred gender. This gender is annotated in the ‘sex’ column of the birth certificate. (There is no ‘gender’ column).
    This legal change affords them the same rights as their chosen sex.

    Therefore:
    A trans man is legally a man, and a trans woman is legally a woman. They don’t have to have a ‘sex change’ - (more properly referred to as Gender reassignment, or gender affirmation surgery.) - be a transsexual.

    Gender affirmation surgery (or medical treatments to affirm gender) do not alter a persons biological sex.

    While for the vast majority of time, there is no issue or conflict, there are instances these new rights can conflict with the rights of non transgender people.
    This is an area that needs to be discussed fairly, openly, and without fear of censure.


    How did I do?
    Basically you're a transphobe


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,091 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Basically you're a transphobe
    And just to clarify, it's not the same as being a real phobe!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    eagle eye wrote: »
    And just to clarify, it's not the same as being a real phobe!

    She's a transphobe until she identifies as not a transphobe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya




    Simple words for simple truths.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    gender and sex are not unrelated??!


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