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Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions.

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    #962
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    hcf500 wrote: »
    All meaningless word. Hillary had the presidency stolen from her. She is the rightful potus. There will be too much scrutiny on Trump in 2020 and the Russians will not be able to collude with him as a result. He should be impeached immediately for collusion.

    The Trump thread is somewhere else.

    Transphobia is a made up word. Nobody is ''phobic'' of trans.

    Up until very recently gender dysphoria was considered a mental health issue, much like any other body dysphoric disorder (which still are) but it was declassified eventually to gender incongruence.
    It has been tricky to have had the condition declassified from medical concern as its sufferers still insist that their treatment aught to be paid for on the public purse under health services. If it is not a condition then what is one to treat? How one expects to ''treat'' something that is not pathological is another incoherence.

    Also the question of appropriate treatment is not being adequately addressed. Sterility and impotence are serious side effects of present treatment, not to mention increased cancer and cardiovascular risk and loss of bone density and failure of the frontal lobes to properly develop in young people after treatment.

    I believe there are many underlying causes of gender dysphoria from potential genetics, which would be interesting to assess, to abuse response ie psychological discomfort to xeno-hormones to social/psychic contagion to autogynophelia to fashion. It is a very complicated area with very complicated implications that cannot be shouted down / bullied into silence.


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    #963
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    rgodard80a wrote: »
    If you want to claim progress, go ahead.
    It doesn't affect me personally, but I can still have a say in proposed changes in society.
    Trans women truly claiming or expecting to be recognised as real women, falls under a broad category of bullshit which also includes anti-vaxxers, anti-evolutionists and flat earthers.
    Something which merits comment.

    So says the science denier! There has been 2 public consultations on the Irish Gender Recognition Act, where was your opposition?
    rgodard80a wrote: »
    I never said there was, in any of my posts.

    You claimed "overwhelming support of the majority" and based that on "no objections".
    The absence of chalk doesn't prove the presence of cheese.

    No majority opinion for your suggestion, go ahead and live in that dictatorship where you deny the democratic will of the people.
    rgodard80a wrote: »
    It's not "suddenly" a key issue, the issue which spawned this thread is the people losing their jobs or impacts in their career from their more scientific and intuitive opinions on the subject.

    They never lost their job in the UK, their contract wasn't renewed. Don't recall anyone losing their jobs in Ireland yet where the Gender Recognition Act came in 2015.


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    #964
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    hcf500 wrote: »
    All meaningless word. Hillary had the presidency stolen from her. She is the rightful potus. There will be too much scrutiny on Trump in 2020 and the Russians will not be able to collude with him as a result. He should be impeached immediately for collusion.


    Nope, nobody had the presidency stolen from them. Hillary handed the presidency to Trump on a silver platter because she tried to appeal to “minorities”, because for some only God knows reason, some people are of the belief that all of these “minority” groups share the same opinions of each other like there’s some solidarity between them and Trump was their common enemy? Hillary found out to her cost that they don’t, she tried to play the identity politics card and lost. Trump literally won by default after Hillary tanked her own campaign. Fcukall to do with the Russians when you’re trying to convince yourself that the reason she lost is because voters were misguided. Even two years later Hillary was still shooting herself in the foot -

    Speaking at 2018’s India Today Conclave in Mumbai over the past weekend, Clinton said that voters who turned out for President Trump were following a campaign that was “looking backwards,” while those who supported her were fueled by optimism for America’s future.

    “If you look at the map of the United States, there is all that red in the middle, places where Trump won,” she said. “What that map doesn’t show you is that I won the places that won two thirds of America’s Gross Domestic product. I won the places that are optimistic, diverse, dynamic, moving forward. And his whole campaign, Make America Great Again, was looking backwards. You don’t like black people getting rights, you don’t like women getting jobs, you don’t want to see that Indian American succeeding more than you are, whatever that problem is, I am going to solve it.”


    As it turns out, it’s the people who voted for Trump now have every reason to be optimistic for America’s future, not because Trump, but because at least it’s not someone who thinks of them like it turns out Hillary does.


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    #965
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    I think most people, and dictionaries, define gender and sex in different ways. You can be a man and a female, or a woman and a male, because gender is socially constructed but not sex.

    Some trans people object to this.

    I think thats fair enough. Ish.
    (Its the use of words like "female penis" or "male vagina" though ive a problem with, or people accepting a man having a baby when these are biological or sex organs when i have to arch an eyebrow and put my glasses on my head).

    Some trans people object to what aspect?
    That they can change gender and sex?


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    #966
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    Can you answer this one for me Klaaaz, thanks.

    No, as I've told you in this thread and many other threads about it the latest if I recall 2 nights ago. Maybe i'll change my mind when One Eyed Jack decides to answer my question on self ID gender recognition.


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    #967
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    klaaaz wrote:
    People have changed sex for decades, it's nothing new or part of a mystical ideology.

    Just a quick point... No. No they haven't.

    Nobody ever has


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    #968
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    No, as I've told you in this thread and many other threads about it the latest if I recall 2 nights ago. Maybe i'll change my mind when One Eyed Jack decides to answer my question on self ID gender recognition.


    You’ll answer another posters question when I answer your question?

    Classic deflection there klaaaz, whether or not you choose to answer other posters questions has nothing to do with whether or not I answer your questions.


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    #969
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    hcf500 wrote: »
    All meaningless word. Hillary had the presidency stolen from her. She is the rightful potus. There will be too much scrutiny on Trump in 2020 and the Russians will not be able to collude with him as a result. He should be impeached immediately for collusion.

    There was no collusion though? And how exactly did Hillary have it stolen? (please don't argue the popular vote)

    What Trump brings to 2020 election?

    - Better than even the most skeptic economist predicted GDP
    - The lowest unemployment rates in American history
    - improved trade with Mexico and domestic neighbors (despite all the "wall" publicity

    Meanwhile you have Bernie Sanders and AOC undoing a lot of support for Democrats with attacks on Amazon, the disastrous green new deal

    To be honest I think Trump is in a hell of a lot better of a position for re-election than he was 3 years ago.


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    #970
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just a quick point... No. No they haven't.

    Nobody ever has

    There may come a time with CRISPR-type gene editing tecnology that people will be able to change sex but since this would likely have to be done - and to the over 6500 genes that influence sex - in the first weeks after conception we would be into seriously dodgy transhumanist territory by then.
    Meanwhile Dr Tandy Aye, a paediatric endocrinologist, has recently in a Ted talk avowed openly that a mother can ''tell'' upon being handed their new-born if they are transgender. Forgive me if I find some of the scientists rather compromised on this subject!


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    #971
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just a quick point... No. No they haven't.

    Nobody ever has

    Yes they have.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20544095
    bbc wrote:
    Christine Jorgensen: 60 years of sex change ops

    Don't read if you get upset and sensitive at the content.


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    #972
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    No, as I've told you in this thread and many other threads about it the latest if I recall 2 nights ago. Maybe i'll change my mind when One Eyed Jack decides to answer my question on self ID gender recognition.

    You told me two nights ago you won’t answer my question?

    I thought you wanted me to understand where you’re coming from, and the reasons my ideas are misguided.

    That makes no sense.


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    #973
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Yes they have.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20544095


    Don't read if you get upset and sensitive at the content.

    No mention of gene manipulation so that is not actually changing sex


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    #974
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Here is an article about how a distinction between sex and gender should be made in scientific literature to avoid confusion. Bloody science denying scientists and their crazy theories

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK222296/

    That's a book from 20 years ago. Those scientists(2,617 of them) in the latest bulletin stated
    There are no genetic tests that can unambiguously determine gender, or even sex.

    Yes, bloody science denying scientists and their crazy theories!


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    #975
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    What is your opinion on self-ID for changing gender, you never gave one and have been extremely silent on posters who oppose people changing gender without medical intervention. Go on, give us your opinion.


    Is this what you’re referring to klaaaz? What do you mean what’s my opinion on self-ID for changing gender? People can self-ID however they want. I really don’t care as I’m not affected by their choice to ID themselves however they wish. If they want me to agree with them that they are whatever they self-ID as, then we could run into issues.

    Actually I have given my opinion on this before, and you participated in that thread then too! I’ve always maintained that people who identify themselves as transgender are a separate gender category to men and women and they should have equal rights in law the same as men and women have equal rights, and they should have specific rights in the same way men and women have specific rights as a consequence of their biological sex and their gender.

    There are a number of sex and gender specific laws in Irish legislation, and it wouldn’t take much tweaking to afford people who identify themselves as transgender equal rights to men and women in the interests of promoting a fair and just society.

    That would require you drop the pretence about humans having the capacity to change their sex though, because that just isn’t humanly possible in any context, particularly when you’re relying on science and medicine to frame your beliefs - beliefs which only hold to be true as long as you continue to distort and ignore the existence of other people who contradict your beliefs.


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    #976
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    That's a book from 20 years ago. Those scientists(2,617 of them) in the latest bulletin stated


    Yes, bloody science denying scientists and their crazy theories!

    Once again, for those in the cheap seats,

    ‘There are no genetic tests that can unambiguously determine gender, or even sex’

    This statement is true, because there are some intersex conditions which are difficult to determine sex, owing to a novel collection of chromosomes and/or genes.

    Intersex. Not Transgender.


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    #977
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    klaaaz wrote:
    Yes they have.

    From your article:

    "Everyone is both sexes in varying degrees. I am more of a woman than a man… Of course I can never have children but this does not mean that I cannot have natural sexual intercourse - I am very much in the position right now of a woman who has a hysterectomy," she said in 1958.

    That's the ramblings of a madman.

    You might as well cite Fritzl as the cornerstone of parenthood.

    It proves nothing


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    #978
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    You told me two nights ago you won’t answer my question?

    I thought you wanted me to understand where you’re coming from, and the reasons my ideas are misguided.

    That makes no sense.

    I had answered you many times on that topic. Do you think i'm naive to think you're trying to "understand me"? Ha no! Go back to 2 nights ago where we discussed the topic of medical and non-medical trans in the context of your question.
    One eyed Jack wrote:
    What do you mean what’s my opinion on self-ID for changing gender?

    Do you believe that people can change gender through self-identification? Is it possible in your eyes for a person to change gender?
    Some posters do not believe a person can change gender, they are adamant in their view. All you gave me as an answer was a history lesson on transgender rights.


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    #979
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Zorya wrote: »
    I think they are specifically intertwined.

    I think they're often intertwined, but they also have very distinct strands and present very distinct issues for society. They're primarily intertwined because they were both started by the same political faction five or six years ago - the pro-censorship / deplatforming fad which began in earnest around 2013/14 was very much pushed by the same crowd which began militantly demanding an end to the concept of biological gender, again around 2013/14. But they've both ballooned outwards now such that both issues have sucked in neighbouring issues, and that why IMO they need to be dealt with separately in terms of debate. Having one thread to discuss both simultaneously is quite chaotic and hard to follow.


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    #980
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Deleted User wrote: »
    From your article:

    "Everyone is both sexes in varying degrees. I am more of a woman than a man… Of course I can never have children but this does not mean that I cannot have natural sexual intercourse - I am very much in the position right now of a woman who has a hysterectomy," she said in 1958.

    That's the ramblings of a madman.

    You might as well cite Fritzl as the cornerstone of parenthood.

    It proves nothing

    It's not my article, it's the BBC. Are all transgender women who have surgery "madmen"?


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    #981
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    I had answered you many times on that topic. Do you think i'm naive to think you're trying to "understand me"? Ha no! Go back to 2 nights ago where we discussed the topic of medical and non-medical trans in the context of your question.

    No Klaaaz, you didn’t answer me anytime. In fact you deliberately went out of your way to skirt around the question and not answer it.

    If there was a common understanding what the words were using meant, it would be much easier for everyone.

    The good doctor in that 20 year old book had a very good point indeed.


    I’ll leave my question here again. Just in case.
    Klaaaz, maybe you could give us tutorial here - explain what the different groups under the ‘Transgender umbrella’ are, and what they mean.

    Because when you say ‘transsexuals are those who have changed sex, it seems to imply that other transgender people haven’t changed sex.

    So a trans man isn’t always a man, and a trans woman isn’t always a woman.
    The message isn’t exactly clear.


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    #982
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Some posters do not believe a person can change gender, they are adamant in their view.

    Every poster that I remember in this thread knows that a person can change their gender identity. Most posters know that a person cannot change their sex.

    You have to be careful too when you so speak firmly about post surgical distinctions, because more people identifying as transgender are moving away from affirmation surgery and even hormones, because of the huge negative effects of such actions on their already healthy bodies.
    I think it is really good that there is the beinnings of a movement for trans-identifying people to move away from hormones and surgery and relying on gender expression to naturally and healthfully fulfil themselves because the effects of the medical treatments are really uncertain. This lends more credence to the concept then of distinct trans rights - gender spaces, classifications in sport and so on etc - rather than affording one category of people rights at the obvious expense of another.


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    #983
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Do you believe that people can change gender through self-identification? Is it possible in your eyes for a person to change gender?
    Some posters do not believe a person can change gender, they are adamant in their view. All you gave me as an answer was a history lesson on transgender rights.


    Do you really not see the glaring and rather obvious flaw in your own question? It’s a question of self-identification with regard to gender. Therefore it simply doesn’t matter what I believe, what you believe, or what anyone else believes other than the person themselves. Because as I’ve pointed out many times (and you can’t deny you haven’t noticed) - gender is an entirely social construct.

    That’s why it doesn’t matter what society a person lives in, some societies recognise only two genders, commonly understood in Western society as the gender binary paradigm. However, in other societies and cultures, they recognise many more genders, because gender identity is a construct of language. What is indisputable however, is the fact that there are only two sexes in human biology - male, and female.

    People who are intersex are not necessarily transgender - they are either primarily male or female, and they may possess the organs of the opposite sex. This is not even in the same ball park as being transgender, because most intersex persons are perfectly capable of making the distinction that they are of either the male or female sex. It’s currently a rather controversial issue among people who are intersex and the medical and scientific community, who some intersex people regard as violating their human rights and subjecting people who are intersex to unnecessary and unethical surgical procedures to “fix” what Western medicine regards as a problem that needs fixing.


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    #984
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    hcf500 wrote: »
    It will happen in time. Mark my words. The whole world is feeling the negative impact from Trump. It was on a very progressive ladder until 2016. Once 2020 comes and he is out, there will be a worldwide shift. We need more TDs in Ireland like Pelosi, Omar and AOC. Diversity is very important in politics.

    Good ****ing grief I hope not. The last thing Ireland needs is any more importation of American politics whether that be from the right or left of the political spectrum. .. Or politicians for that matter.

    I'd take Ruth Coppinger, RBB and Paul Murphy over any of those you mentioned as at least they are relatively old school far-leftists as opposed to the new modern identity obsessed leftists we see in America.


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    #985
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Do you really not see the glaring and rather obvious flaw in your own question? It’s a question of self-identification with regard to gender. Therefore it simply doesn’t matter what I believe, what you believe, or what anyone else believes other than the person themselves. Because as I’ve pointed out many times (and you can’t deny you haven’t noticed) - gender is an entirely social construct.

    You only have to look as far as the H.R 5 Equality Act in the US to see this.
    GENDER IDENTITY.—The term ‘gender identity’ means the gender-related identity, appearance, mannerisms, or other gender-related characteristics of an individual, regardless of the individual’s designated sex at birth.

    This was the best legal definition they could come up with for the bill.


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    #986
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    I think thats fair enough. Ish.
    (Its the use of words like "female penis" or "male vagina" though ive a problem with, or people accepting a man having a baby when these are biological or sex organs when i have to arch an eyebrow and put my glasses on my head).

    Some trans people object to what aspect?
    That they can change gender and sex?
    I've seen trans people and other advocates for trans rights deny the distinction between gender and sex, asserting that there is no ambiguity, than a trans woman is both a woman and a female, without distinction as to whether they've had surgery.

    I understand why a trans person would object to being classified in the sex of their birth, but that's a biological classification. It's a statement of your chromosomes, which are almost always unambiguous and never amendable.

    Thankfully it doesn't usually arise. There's almost never a need to refer to anyone's sex (as opposed to their gender pronouns)


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    #987
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    Every poster that I remember in this thread knows that a person can change their gender identity.

    Not this poster who apparently thinks they speaks for the majority! I don't recall you objecting to this posters's statements today.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110139495&postcount=900
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110140837&postcount=921
    eagle eye wrote:
    The majority of people think that a trans person is still the gender they were born.
    eagle eye wrote:
    The large majority of people believe that you remain the gender you are born.


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    #988
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I think they're often intertwined, but they also have very distinct strands and present very distinct issues for society. They're primarily intertwined because they were both started by the same political faction five or six years ago - the pro-censorship / deplatforming fad which began in earnest around 2013/14 was very much pushed by the same crowd which began militantly demanding an end to the concept of biological gender, again around 2013/14. But they've both ballooned outwards now such that both issues have sucked in neighbouring issues, and that why IMO they need to be dealt with separately in terms of debate. Having one thread to discuss both simultaneously is quite chaotic and hard to follow.

    I get your points and it is interesting the correlation you note (2013/2014) which I had not thought about.
    A thread without specific context - eg sports rights, or the question of censorship - would likely devolve though, even faster.

    If one keeps in mind that the company wrote to Forstater that she "stated that a man’s internal feeling that he is a woman has no basis in material reality'' and that ''A lot of people would find that offensive and exclusionary”, I find it helps to hold the context together.

    Material reality are the central words, in my opinion. It's a bit ironic and sad that ''material'' relates etymologically to ''mater'' or mother when even gendered language is considered by some to be offensive now. We all come from mothers and are part of the maternal matrix of matter.


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    #989
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Do you really not see the glaring and rather obvious flaw in your own question? It’s a question of self-identification with regard to gender. Therefore it simply doesn’t matter what I believe, what you believe, or what anyone else believes other than the person themselves. Because as I’ve pointed out many times (and you can’t deny you haven’t noticed) - gender is an entirely social construct.

    That’s why it doesn’t matter what society a person lives in, some societies recognise only two genders, commonly understood in Western society as the gender binary paradigm. However, in other societies and cultures, they recognise many more genders, because gender identity is a construct of language.

    Now you're giving me another history lesson which doesn't answer the question. We know western society is binary, I never asked you if it was or was not! The rest of your post was not applicable to the question asked.

    Is it possible in your eyes for a person to change gender? (self_ID or not) Some posters think a person cannot change gender and some posters think a person can change gender, what is your view? Yay or nay?


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    #990
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Not this poster who apparently thinks they speaks for the majority! I don't recall you objecting to this posters's statements today.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110139495&postcount=900
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110140837&postcount=921


    What’s to object to?

    The majority of people in Western society do believe that people remain the gender they are born.

    People who experience gender dysphoria are in a minority in any Western society, and the vast majority of people don’t even give issues regarding sex and gender incongruity a second thought.


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    #991
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    What’s to object to?

    The majority of people in Western society do believe that people remain the gender they are born.

    So yourself and Zorya disagree on this.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    People who experience gender dysphoria are in a minority in any Western society, and the vast majority of people don’t even give issues regarding sex and gender incongruity a second thought.

    We know this, it's actually quite good that you're giving a history lesson and a lesson in current affairs to other posters who haven't a clue about the issue. (not sarcasm! ;) )


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