Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]

Penn · 02-05-2019 4:05pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

My thinking was without Riri having been introduced at all, and with the reaction to Shui from fans, along with her tech abilities that it would be a very good fit to have her become Iron Heart. She has the brains, the fighting ability and the likable character to do it.

I did think the same but wonder if they'd prefer to keep Shuri as part of the Black Panther movies instead. Then again it might be wiser to keep Ironheart as more of a supporting character as the expectations may be too high for a solo Ironheart movie given it'd be the spiritual successor to the Iron Man movies.

Slutmonkey57b · 02-05-2019 6:02pm

Drumpot wrote: »

This narrative has to stop. If you really disliked the “girl power” scene in the movie it doesn’t make you sexist or mean that you have some underlying or insidious reasons for disliking it.

No it doesn't "have to stop".

If anyone had a problem only with the scene being clunky, or ruining the pacing of the fight, then they would have said so *and left it at that*.

But every whinger has also complained about it in terms of it being "metoo sjw forced pc gone mad".

As has been pointed out, there are endless examples of clunky "hero" shots which come out of nowhere and ruin the pacing of a marvel film for a couple of seconds. *only this one* gets the vitriol, and only from men who just happen to be "not sexist but". Bucky with the shield in winter soldier. The "let's repeat the circle shot" in ultron. Don't hear the man babies complaining about those.

pjohnson · 02-05-2019 6:16pm

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

No it doesn't "have to stop".

If anyone had a problem only with the scene being clunky, or ruining the pacing of the fight, then they would have said so *and left it at that*.

But every whinger has also complained about it in terms of it being "metoo sjw forced pc gone mad".

As has been pointed out, there are endless examples of clunky "hero" shots which come out of nowhere and ruin the pacing of a marvel film for a couple of seconds. *only this one* gets the vitriol, and only from men who just happen to be "not sexist but". Bucky with the shield in winter soldier. The "let's repeat the circle shot" in ultron. Don't hear the man babies complaining about those.

I think you are confused I have seen people here in this thread say the scene was clunky. I have then seen yourself come steaming in calling anyone who has highlighted this scene some kind of incel.

#CheckYoOutrage

God it must be really depressing to be so desperate to be outraged at nothing instead of watching and enjoying the movie.

santana75 · 02-05-2019 6:46pm

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

No it doesn't "have to stop".

If anyone had a problem only with the scene being clunky, or ruining the pacing of the fight, then they would have said so *and left it at that*.

But every whinger has also complained about it in terms of it being "metoo sjw forced pc gone mad".

As has been pointed out, there are endless examples of clunky "hero" shots which come out of nowhere and ruin the pacing of a marvel film for a couple of seconds. *only this one* gets the vitriol, and only from men who just happen to be "not sexist but". Bucky with the shield in winter soldier. The "let's repeat the circle shot" in ultron. Don't hear the man babies complaining about those.

I think you might be reading sexism into something thats not even remotely sexist. I saw the film at the weekend with some friends(men and women). And it was the women who mentioned the scene, not the guys. And they absolutely slated it. One of the girls said, that as a female she felt embarrassed by that scene. The negative response it got was a human reaction to something contrived and manipulative. People, as a whole, will always call BS on an agenda thats being forced upon them.

Foxtrol · 02-05-2019 6:57pm

Drumpot wrote: »

This narrative has to stop. If you really disliked the “girl power” scene in the movie it doesn’t make you sexist or mean that you have some underlying or insidious reasons for disliking it. This is such a lazy online method to defend something. Shaming people into conceding s point by implying if they disagree with your opinion you imply it makes them a misogynist.

It’s ironic that the avengers scene you mentioned from the original movie had ALL the avengers in them. Not just the black ones or the woman it was everybody huddled together. But it was also inclusive as was the corny bit in Averngers 2 when they did something similar around the bomb. But that also included everybody.

You can’t say well “little girls liked it so you shouldn’t give out about it”. Of course little girls will enjoy things that grown men won’t. There were so many other better ways of doing it, including SW all but killing Thanos on her own. Nobody has a problem with that because it was done well. BW got to sacrifice herself to effectively save the whole plan when it would of been so cliche for Clint to of done it. That’s as heroic as it gets. Valkyrie riding in on s horse and ripping one of those flying things apart would of been more awesome as an independent shot not in the middle of a joke of a scene.

There are people who are sexist and will get angry with anything empowering woman but that scene is not one to defend or have a go at those of us who just thought it was shh*t.

Your post does a good job at making my point. To me, a contrived shot/moment is a contrived shot/moment, with some being more forced or having a better payoff for me than others, but who is in them doesn’t really matter. When reading your post, it appears that a key issue is the characters involved, specifically being fine when ‘ALL’ characters shots but needing to push back on any of consistent race or gender.

This isn’t saying you’re anything like the narrative you seem to have in your head, but I’m consistently not seeing any self-reflection and explanation as to why this shot is much worse and requires so much more vocalization than the many, many contrived shots throughout the 22 MCU movies that are completely given a pass.

Slydice · 02-05-2019 7:12pm

Patser wrote: »

And to think Thanos was thwarted because a rat managed to accidentally active Antmans shrink machine in the back of a van. The whole plan starts because of that, a rat, that somehow keys in the correct instructions into a 5 year defunct panel in a van.

And Strange foresaw that.

and he may well have had to rewatch and rewatch and rewatch a few times too until they got it!

all like... wtf.. where does ant man keep coming from!?!?

Foxtrol · 02-05-2019 7:14pm

pjohnson wrote: »

I think you are confused I have seen people here in this thread say the scene was clunky. I have then seen yourself come steaming in calling anyone who has highlighted this scene some kind of incel.

#CheckYoOutrage

God it must be really depressing to be so desperate to be outraged at nothing instead of watching and enjoying the movie.

I’m not sure who you’re having a go at with your last line.

Aren’t the people who are seeing ‘agendas’ in a 10 second shot and allowing it to impact their enjoyment of a 3 hour movie, the culmination of 48 hours of MCU movies, the ones who are getting ‘so desperate to be outraged at nothing instead of watching and enjoying the movie’?

This never ending outrage circle can get confusing.

Foxtrol · 02-05-2019 7:17pm

Patser wrote: »

And to think Thanos was thwarted because a rat managed to accidentally active Antmans shrink machine in the back of a van. The whole plan starts because of that, a rat, that somehow keys in the correct instructions into a 5 year defunct panel in a van.

And Strange foresaw that.

Feel they really missed an Easter Egg in not making it a squirrel setting off the device instead of a rat

pjohnson · 02-05-2019 7:41pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

I’m not sure who you’re having a go at with your last line.

Aren’t the people who are seeing ‘agendas’ in a 10 second shot and allowing it to impact their enjoyment of a 3 hour movie, the culmination of 48 hours of MCU movies, the ones who are getting ‘so desperate to be outraged at nothing instead of watching and enjoying the movie’?

This never ending outrage circle can get confusing.

I was refering (amazingly) to the poster I quoted. Who has not offered any feedback about the movie itself but rather exclusively complained about the people, no sorry this user fixed a post that said people so it just read "men" who have mentioned a small scene as being a negative. (Many of which have still praised the movie as a whole).

Sure a few headers have creamed themselves and claimed that it "ruined" the whole experience but for the most part this isnt what is happening in the thread.

In fact a few have even suggested that the female characters themselves deserved a better treatment than a powerless pose shot. And people saying this have had both penis and vagina because *gasp* women watch these movies and can make their own opinions. People need to stop trying so desperately to keep up the whole #sexism #racism nonsense with regard to the MCU and that only male fans dont like any women characters. Its just a outdated moronic trope.

Drumpot · 02-05-2019 7:48pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Your post does a good job at making my point. To me, a contrived shot/moment is a contrived shot/moment, with some being more forced or having a better payoff for me than others, but who is in them doesn’t really matter. When reading your post, it appears that a key issue is the characters involved, specifically being fine when ‘ALL’ characters shots but needing to push back on any of consistent race or gender.

This isn’t saying you’re anything like the narrative you seem to have in your head, but I’m consistently not seeing any self-reflection and explanation as to why this shot is much worse and requires so much more vocalization than the many, many contrived shots throughout the 22 MCU movies that are completely given a pass.

I’ve not spoken much about the shot much, moreso the people trying to make out that those who disliked it have some sort of hidden agenda. If you valued self reflection so much you wouldn’t make so many presumptions and generalize people with a different view to yourself.

NuMarvel · 02-05-2019 7:55pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Feel they really missed an Easter Egg in not making it a squirrel setting off the device instead of a rat

Tippy-Toe approves this post.

Foxtrol · 02-05-2019 8:03pm

Drumpot wrote: »

I’ve not spoken much about the shot much, moreso the people trying to make out that those who disliked it have some sort of hidden agenda. If you valued self reflection so much you wouldn’t make so many presumptions and generalize people with a different view to yourself.

What presumptions and generalizations am I making about you, all I did was quote your post? You are free to correct me if I am misunderstanding, but your post clearly states that a key problem you have is the people who are involved in the shot rather than the shot itself.

Corholio · 02-05-2019 8:41pm

Enjoyed it a lot for the most part. The final battle was so well done I have to say, I think it was quite interesting also because there's been quite a few Marvel films where it's always questioned 'Where was so and so during the battle' etc, then to be explained in a future film. For that they were just all there.

What surprised me most was how really bizarrely poor the one liners, ripostes and general comedy was. Caps and Iron Mans especially. Even the normally averagely cheesy serious one liners were incredibly cheesy, Cap had a lot of shallow dialogue especially. I won't particularly miss Downey Jr, his schtick became stale quite a while ago.

Really liked Nebula's appearance in the film, always enjoyed her character and glad it was extended upon.

The Rape of Lucretia · 02-05-2019 10:02pm

Oh man, was that gruelling. Rule number one of film making : if you have a bad one, dont add insult to injury by making it to long as well.

Enjoyed Infinity War. It hit a good balance. But this was a resurection that just wasnt needed. Without a plot of any substance - none of these movies has really, its on the wrapping that they make or break - it was depending n hitting the right balance of action, characters, and humour. Infinity was did it well, Thor also, Guardians of the Galaxy very well. But this was a stinker. So wide of the mark, one wonders how it was let out at all. The attempt to be at once serious, drip with portent, and get away with self referential and SNL flavour comedy just hit such a bum note.

Add in having to listen the Sky News theme on loop, and the whole experience was most unsatisfactory.

Somehow, I stayed to the end, and saw the good bit. All thirty seconds of it. Quill and Thor on who was in charge. It was nice. But poor reward for the penance put in up to that. Maybe the whole point of it was that a man of colour can now be Captain America instead of white man. Not sure.

Drumpot · 02-05-2019 11:10pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

What presumptions and generalizations am I making about you, all I did was quote your post? You are free to correct me if I am misunderstanding, but your post clearly states that a key problem you have is the people who are involved in the shot rather than the shot itself.

I was responding to your post on people being outraged (should of copied it) and presumed you are implying that to not like that scene is sexist or misogynist, if that was not what you were saying then fair enough. I’m personally not outraged but think it was a poor scene in an otherwise decent battle. I actually preferred IW but that’s another topic.

TBH I can’t think of a more contrived scene in any other marvel movie. There have been stupid and cringeworthy moments in marvel movies but few as bad as that and the fact its the biggest most important battle of the franchise possibly made it more annoying.

The directors went out of their way to make it all female scene to make a statement which couldn’t of been less subtle. “Look at all the great, powerful woman everybody”. Its such a Hollywood cheap tokenistic way to supposedly promote strong women. I really enjoy strong female characters as you will see if you do some research in my post history here but I found this just crap.

JP Liz V1 · 02-05-2019 11:19pm

OT but Tony's daughter looked like Katie Holmes

pixelburp · 02-05-2019 11:31pm

Only got around to seeing it tonight, so finally pop back in to see what people have been saying, and ....

... it's whinging about that passing moment with all the women heroes. FFS. Why am I not even surprised at this point. There's always something to be indignant about... 3 hours of film but let's harrumph over a silly audience nod.

Drumpot · 02-05-2019 11:44pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Only got around to seeing it tonight, so finally pop back in to see what people have been saying, and ....

... it's whinging about that passing moment with all the women heroes. FFS. Why am I not even surprised at this point. There's always something to be indignant about... 3 hours of film but let's harrumph over a silly audience nod.

In fairness, There hasn’t been much whinging about the scene, more a correction of people trying to insinuate that those who disliked the scene have more nefarious reasons for bringing it up.

McDermotX · 03-05-2019 2:47am

FWIW....the 'all-women scene' is old news....yes it's probably the worst shot in cinema history, but some of us have moved on.

I'm sitting here impatiently waiting on all the hysterical Green Book haters to get their arse in gear, and tell me how inappropriate is was for Wilson looking to Bucky for the go-ahead to accept Rodgers' shield.

Triggered !!!!!

Drumpot · 03-05-2019 8:44am

McDermotX wrote: »

FWIW....the 'all-women scene' is old news....yes it's probably the worst shot in cinema history, but some of us have moved on.

I'm sitting here impatiently waiting on all the hysterical Green Book haters to get their arse in gear, and tell me how inappropriate is was for Wilson looking to Bucky for the go-ahead to accept Rodgers' shield.

Triggered !!!!!

It’s actually not that bad on second viewing when you are ready for it. Valkyrie’s impressive entrance would been better if it was done something similar to “on your left” from falcon, maybe if she flew by Thor and stopped one of those big yokes getting him.

TherapyBoy · 03-05-2019 9:38am

Drumpot wrote: »

TBH I can’t think of a more contrived scene in any other marvel movie. There have been stupid and cringeworthy moments in marvel movies but few as bad as that and the fact its the biggest most important battle of the franchise possibly made it more annoying.

They should have thrown Thor in with the women, swishing his hair & looking fantastic!

pixelburp · 03-05-2019 12:30pm

Well. That felt like an extended victory lap as much a resolution to a cliffhanger: the plot was little more than a thin window dressing to indulge in sequences of cameos, callbacks and revisits across the last 10 years of MCU films. Some of those cameos were a genuine surprise and delight - Robert Redford was my personal highlight, as was the subversion of Winter Soldier's elevator scene - while others more expected but no less emotionally impactful. It has been suggested - and I've been inclined to agree - that the MCU has effectively functioned as a long series of "hangout" films, the joy being in the characters, their interactions and crossovers, rather than the (sometimes subpar) action and adventure: Endgame felt like the final proof of this, where the 3 hours consisted of one long roll-call and check-in with this ragtag group of characters.

In making Endgame an ostensible 'series finale', genetically similar to the big final episode of a TV show, the growing feeling as I put distance between it and myself is that I might be done with the MCU. For now at least: like how we wait a year before the next season of our favourite show, Endgame was the closing of a chapter, a narrative full-stop - or at least a semi-colon anyway. Goodbyes were said, sunsets watched or walked into, and so on. The Spider-Man sequel, coming fast down the tracks and a few months away, arrives too soon after such a big emotional climax and it may go unseen. Part of that apathy may also be the creeping belief that the newer MCU characters just don't resonate to the same extent as the Phase 1 crew (or even Phase 2, with the Guardians); while I was keen to follow Thor, Cap, Quill, Gamora et al by dint of those arresting characters & performances, the likes of Captain Marvel just don't grab me (indeed, so far she comes off a bit of charisma vacuum). We shall see what the future holds in that respect.

As to the plot itself? Well, it was gubbins of the highest order, and like I said a mere excuse to put the players on the board; potential contradictions glibly brushed aside with writing that stopped short of turning to the camera and asking the audience to just go with it[*]. And like a lot of two parters, the pay-off just couldn't maintain the momentum and tension accrued in the first half (though the "left behind" aspects were a success). The last act also descended into another big battle, but kudos to the Russos are due, as it was a better staged and balanced set-piece than the visually bland, rote version we got in Infinity War. Indeed, a couple of scenes had some genuinely fist-pumping moment sorely lacking in that first part.

* By taking the decision to return everyone 5 years after The Snap, all for the sake of Stark's daughter, the script basically condemned humanity to struggle; the first act clearly established a world without hope, one of chaos and collapse. Restoring those 4+ billion people into a world with crumbling infrastructure - farming, political, economic and so on - would surely bring mass poverty, conflict and starvation to the world (not to mention all those personal tragedies with siblings, spouses and friends having to readdress their relationships). Oh, but Stark's daughter can still exist so that's OK?

Sonics2k · 03-05-2019 1:06pm

pixelburp wrote: »

* By taking the decision to return everyone 5 years after The Snap, all for the sake of Stark's daughter, the script basically condemned humanity to struggle; the first act clearly established a world without hope, one of chaos and collapse. Restoring those 4+ billion people into a world with crumbling infrastructure - farming, political, economic and so on - would surely bring mass poverty, conflict and starvation to the world (not to mention all those personal tragedies with siblings, spouses and friends having to readdress their relationships). Oh, but Stark's daughter can still exist so that's OK?

I think it's safe to say it was for more than just Stark's daughter, but all the children born in that time.

kerplun k · 03-05-2019 1:07pm

pixelburp wrote: »

By taking the decision to return everyone 5 years after The Snap, all for the sake of Stark's daughter, the script basically condemned humanity to struggle; the first act clearly established a world without hope, one of chaos and collapse. Restoring those 4+ billion people into a world with crumbling infrastructure - farming, political, economic and so on - would surely bring mass poverty, conflict and starvation to the world (not to mention all those personal tragedies with siblings, spouses and friends having to readdress their relationships). Oh, but Stark's daughter can still exist so that's OK?

Wasn’t just Stark tho, you can’t just erase the past 5 years of people’s lives. Life moves on. If this decision was mine, I’d do the same thing and bring them back over erasing the past five years of my life.

pixelburp · 03-05-2019 1:10pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

I think it's safe to say it was for more than just Stark's daughter, but all the children born in that time.

Maybe, but the plan was hatched by dint of Stark's explicit comment about losing his daughter, so it's fair (end)game to hang it on our heroes.

They literally had the power to change the universe; presumably the writers were keen to avoid a total "it never happened" conclusion 'cos nobody likes those, but the choice they made feels like the world is going to have a lot of unintended, nasty consequences for everyone.

Starting with famine.

Ethereal Cereal · 03-05-2019 1:54pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Maybe, but the plan was hatched by dint of Stark's explicit comment about losing his daughter, so it's fair (end)game to hang it on our heroes.

They literally had the power to change the universe; presumably the writers were keen to avoid a total "it never happened" conclusion 'cos nobody likes those, but the choice they made feels like the world is going to have a lot of unintended, nasty consequences for everyone.

Starting with famine.

Yea, I totally agree with this. I think they could have prevented the initial snappening, and used some Infinity Stones explanation to how this would change their future.

It would have required a final sacrifice from Tony but most of the children born in that timeline would have been born in the altered timeline, just not into a universe of famine, grief and devastation.

If they had of played up the tragedy of the currect timeline, it would not have felt like a cheat to undo events from the end of IW.

Foxtrol · 03-05-2019 3:51pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Maybe, but the plan was hatched by dint of Stark's explicit comment about losing his daughter, so it's fair (end)game to hang it on our heroes.

They literally had the power to change the universe; presumably the writers were keen to avoid a total "it never happened" conclusion 'cos nobody likes those, but the choice they made feels like the world is going to have a lot of unintended, nasty consequences for everyone.

Starting with famine.

Marvel has shown that most of the MCU movies are based on the consequences of the previous movies, a not monster of the week baddie, so they’ve opened great possibilities for future movies, while also providing coverage for why all the Avengers aren’t dealing with every threat (as they’ll be spread too thin).

I remember in the thread for AoU, many posters were complaining about the unnecessary set piece destruction at the end of the movie, but that led to the Sokovia Accords, Civil War, which shaped IW and Endgame. I don’t see how the MCU doesn’t relatively struggle post Endgame, but they’ve given themselves a messed-up interesting world to develop stories and threats for the remaining characters to face.

silverharp · 03-05-2019 4:38pm

did it ever come up what the US military is supposed to be doing when part of upstate New York is being invaded?

RayCun · 03-05-2019 4:44pm

They launched a nuke

Victor · 03-05-2019 6:07pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Starting with famine.

Not necessarily. There is now 50-100% more animals to eat.

Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

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Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]