Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]

Slydice · 02-05-2019 12:09AM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Avatar
Looking at the figures, I'd have assumed a relatively standard split , percentage wise , between US and overseas box offices. But the top US movie , the force awakens , did nearly 200m more than Avatar in the US , but only took in 50% of its overseas total.

awe crap, I'm going blind! post edited!

:o:o

Patser · 02-05-2019 01:59AM

Slydice wrote: »

*muffled whimpers of Dr Strange fans in the distance*

And to think Thanos was thwarted because a rat managed to accidentally active Antmans shrink machine in the back of a van. The whole plan starts because of that, a rat, that somehow keys in the correct instructions into a 5 year defunct panel in a van.

And Strange foresaw that.

demanufactured · 02-05-2019 07:02AM

demanufactured wrote: »

Well that was.......FOOKING AWESOME!!!

And it was again the second time round last night.

spacecoyote · 02-05-2019 10:22AM

Saw the movie last night & was on the whole, happy with the tie-ups.

Quick question (apologies if it has been covered already, cant go back reading a 100 page thread):

What's the story with Loki, the fact that he managed to swipe the teseract & disappear, does that potentially open up a timeline with him still alive?

Zubeneschamali · 02-05-2019 10:27AM

spacecoyote wrote: »

What's the story with Loki, the fact that he managed to swipe the teseract & disappear, does that potentially open up a timeline with him still alive?

Yes, but it's a separate universe, so events since 2012 in his TV show can play out differently than in the MCU.

Ethereal Cereal · 02-05-2019 11:54AM

Patser wrote: »

And to think Thanos was thwarted because a rat managed to accidentally active Antmans shrink machine in the back of a van. The whole plan starts because of that, a rat, that somehow keys in the correct instructions into a 5 year defunct panel in a van.

And Strange foresaw that.

Yea, tbf, the rat is a coincidence, but that is after 5 years have passed. Its not too contrived to think that over the course of 5 years, something would happen to activate a powered control panel.

Penn · 02-05-2019 11:59AM

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

Yea, tbf, the rat is a coincidence, but that is after 5 years have passed. Its not too contrived to think that over the course of 5 years, something would happen to activate a powered control panel.

I do think they might have been better going another route with it though, like a guy is looking for parts for his similar van, storage locker guy lets him have a look at Scott's van, guy hits a button by accident and frees Scott.

Something like that might have worked a bit better. Don't think it majorly affects things either way though.

rossie1977 · 02-05-2019 12:17PM

Necro wrote: »

Doesn't the whole 'Black Widow is dead, that's it' point in that interview fall down with Gamora now running around alive and well?

As someone said they can literally grab a Black Widow from any point in time and bring her back to current day.

It's why the whole reverse snap thing to me seems a cop out to bring back a load of people who were dramatically killed at the end of IW.

If they really had to go that way would it not have been better to have Thanos still in possession of the stones in present day rather than destroying them 'just cos'.

Yeah they shouldn't have brought Gamora back, you just have people like us across the world saying well grab BW and Tony Stark from earlier timeline

With Thor joining GOTG he was perfect replacement anyway.

Ethereal Cereal · 02-05-2019 12:24PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

The Avengers scene in NY involves them all off doing their individual Avenger thing, across several blocks and height levels, only to converge in one small circle for no apparent reason, including a completely uncontrollable Hulk. That shot gets a complete pass from everybody, as it is incredibly iconic, but is just as contrived. I still contend that if that was any other group in Endgame converging together it wouldn’t get a tiny percent of the focus this has.

I agree, that scene has got a disproportionate amount of attention. As a scene, I think it is a bit cringy, but it is worth the cringe if younger girls can see a collective of current female superhero's together.

However.... I do think overall the movie has very poor female representation.

Off the top of my head
- Shuri, a popular breakout character from black panther, was not seen in the battle at all.
- Wasp, the only female superhero with a name check in a movie title, had no scene's in the final battle.
- Black Widow is on administrative duties at the start of the movie, chairing meetings between various characters.
- Black Widow threw herself off the side of a cliff in service to Clint and the other male member of the Avengers. That character in particular has had an awful run of it over the last few movies.
- Captain Marvel has the Storm Breaker Axe flown within an inch of her head, before Thor says "I like this one". And this scene was heavily used to promote the movie.
- Captain Marvel is relegated to transporting male characters at the start of the movie and then being removed from the movie until the final act.
- Future Nebula kills her own past self.

And I think this is down the the Russo brothers. Marvel Entertainment do seem somewhat active in positive female representation, with "AntMan and the Wasp" and "Black Panther". This seems to be a conscious decision by the movie writers and directors.

This is one of the biggest movies of the past decade, in this day and age, to create a movie that is that much of a disservice to half of the population is a bold move.

02-05-2019 12:40PM

Ethereal Cereal wrote:

Off the top of my head - Shuri, a popular breakout character from black panther, was not seen in the battle at all. - Wasp, the only female superhero with a name check in a movie title, had no scene's in the final battle. - Black Widow is on administrative duties at the start of the movie, chairing meetings between various characters. - Black Widow threw herself off the side of a cliff in service to Clint and the other male member of the Avengers. That character in particular has had an awful run of it over the last few movies. - Captain Marvel has the Storm Breaker Axe flown within an inch of her head, before Thor says "I like this one". And this scene was heavily used to promote the movie. - Captain Marvel is relegated to transporting male characters at the start of the movie and then being removed from the movie until the final act. - Future Nebula kills her own past self.

Ah come on!!

Uncharted · 02-05-2019 12:53PM

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

This is one of the biggest movies of the past decade, in this day and age, to create a movie that is that much of a disservice to half of the population is a bold move.

I'm embarrassed on your behalf.

Penn · 02-05-2019 01:13PM

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

I agree, that scene has got a disproportionate amount of attention. As a scene, I think it is a bit cringy, but it is worth the cringe if younger girls can see a collective of current female superhero's together.

However.... I do think overall the movie has very poor female representation.

Off the top of my head
- Shuri, a popular breakout character from black panther, was not seen in the battle at all. - She was. She along with Rescue and someone else I couldn't quite make out hit Thanos with blasts to allow Cap.Marvel to get past him when trying to bring the Gauntlet into the Quantum thing in the van. Given the number of heroes in the final battle though, hard to make a place for everyone.
- Wasp, the only female superhero with a name check in a movie title, had no scene's in the final battle. - She was with Scott helping get the van going Edit: Actually, just checked and she was the third along with Shuri and Rescue who blasted Thanos so Cap.Marvel could get past him
- Black Widow is on administrative duties at the start of the movie, chairing meetings between various characters. - Which ties into her character in that the Avengers is all she had left. Even when she was told of a minor underwater tremor, she wanted to investigate it because she needed something to focus on and to fight.
- Black Widow threw herself off the side of a cliff in service to Clint and the other male member of the Avengers. That character in particular has had an awful run of it over the last few movies. - She didn't do it in service to Clint. It wasn't about doing it for Clint's family, it was about doing it for her family; the Avengers. She did it in service to her own story in that she still had red in her ledger, and this would wipe it out. She needed to be the one to do it for her, not for Clint.
- Captain Marvel has the Storm Breaker Axe flown within an inch of her head, before Thor says "I like this one". And this scene was heavily used to promote the movie. - Because he likes how she didn't even flinch, he likes her confidence, and feels she actually can help them take down Thanos. Nothing to do with her being female.
- Captain Marvel is relegated to transporting male characters at the start of the movie and then being removed from the movie until the final act. - She's instrumental in taking down Thanos at the start and helps decimate his army at the end. But it was a story more about the original Avengers (with some other survivors to help them). Captain Marvel was too new and overpowered to be in the whole movie.
- Future Nebula kills her own past self. - For her story reasons. Don't see why this is a negative.

And I think this is down the the Russo brothers. Marvel Entertainment do seem somewhat active in positive female representation, with "AntMan and the Wasp" and "Black Panther". This seems to be a conscious decision by the movie writers and directors.

This is one of the biggest movies of the past decade, in this day and age, to create a movie that is that much of a disservice to half of the population is a bold move.

I think a lot of these things can be viewed in different ways, but on the whole I think it was mostly a very positive representation of women throughout the movie, in the sense that it never mattered whether any of the characters were male or female. None were treated better or worse because of it.

I would also say that the two characters in the movie who posed the biggest one-on-one threat to Thanos were Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel. Thanos beat Cap (w/ Mjolnir), Thor and Iron Man in a single fight; twice. With Scarlet Witch he had to get his ship to fire on the battleground to stop her from killing him, and with Cap.Marvel he had to use the Power Stone to hit her away which he never had to do for anyone else.

Sonics2k · 02-05-2019 01:23PM

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

I agree, that scene has got a disproportionate amount of attention. As a scene, I think it is a bit cringy, but it is worth the cringe if younger girls can see a collective of current female superhero's together.

I think this post is entire proof that no movie maker can ever win. Previously on this thread, and other forums, we've had open complaints about the forcing in of females into the movie, and now we've got someone saying the exact opposite.

But to break it down a bit for you, this is an Avengers movie. Why would Shuri feature prominently? Also, she's not a fighter. Same with the Wasp.

Black Widow allows herself to be sacrificed because she knows about Clints family, and how much he lost after the snap. Hint, everything. He lost everything.

Captain Marvel is not an Avenger, she's also not entirely concerned about the day to day happenings of Earth, much the same can be said about a good few other heroes in the MCU.

Penn · 02-05-2019 01:32PM

Black Widow: The last five years I've been trying to do one thing; get to right here. That's all it's been about, bringing everybody back.

Her motivation was about more than doing it for Clint or his family. She did it because she needed to do it.

NuMarvel · 02-05-2019 01:51PM

Penn wrote: »

I think a lot of these things can be viewed in different ways, but on the whole I think it was mostly a very positive representation of women throughout the movie, in the sense that it never mattered whether any of the characters were male or female. None were treated better or worse because of it.

I would also say that the two characters in the movie who posed the biggest one-on-one threat to Thanos were Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel. Thanos beat Cap (w/ Mjolnir), Thor and Iron Man in a single fight; twice. With Scarlet Witch he had to get his ship to fire on the battleground to stop her from killing him, and with Cap.Marvel he had to use the Power Stone to hit her away which he never had to do for anyone else.

Yes, the gender of the characters was irrelevant to the movie, yet the male characters got the lion's share of the screen time. And that's probably because men made up the bulk of the main Avengers team in the movie. Of the 10 characters who travel back to the past; only two are women.

Black Widow has the start of a good arc here. She was the one keeping the show running five years later, she was the one making sure the world didn't get worse. But once it's decided they're going back in time, she takes a back seat to Cap. And then she's killed off.

Specific instances like the examples you give aren't good examples of representation if there aren't more substantive storylines for female characters as well. It can't just be a case of "here's your cool moment, now let the menfolk sort this out". It's like the gay guy at the start of the movie. Yes, it's great that we finally have a visible LGBT character in the movies, but he's a bit character there for no other purpose than to serve a specific plot point.

There's more to representation than just briefly appearing on screen. It's being an integral part of the story. And on that score, this movie and Marvel in general, fails.

Drumpot · 02-05-2019 01:53PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

The Avengers scene in NY involves them all off doing their individual Avenger thing, across several blocks and height levels, only to converge in one small circle for no apparent reason, including a completely uncontrollable Hulk. That shot gets a complete pass from everybody, as it is incredibly iconic, but is just as contrived. I still contend that if that was any other group in Endgame converging together it wouldn’t get a tiny percent of the focus this has.

This narrative has to stop. If you really disliked the “girl power” scene in the movie it doesn’t make you sexist or mean that you have some underlying or insidious reasons for disliking it. This is such a lazy online method to defend something. Shaming people into conceding s point by implying if they disagree with your opinion you imply it makes them a misogynist.

It’s ironic that the avengers scene you mentioned from the original movie had ALL the avengers in them. Not just the black ones or the woman it was everybody huddled together. But it was also inclusive as was the corny bit in Averngers 2 when they did something similar around the bomb. But that also included everybody.

You can’t say well “little girls liked it so you shouldn’t give out about it”. Of course little girls will enjoy things that grown men won’t. There were so many other better ways of doing it, including SW all but killing Thanos on her own. Nobody has a problem with that because it was done well. BW got to sacrifice herself to effectively save the whole plan when it would of been so cliche for Clint to of done it. That’s as heroic as it gets. Valkyrie riding in on s horse and ripping one of those flying things apart would of been more awesome as an independent shot not in the middle of a joke of a scene.

There are people who are sexist and will get angry with anything empowering woman but that scene is not one to defend or have a go at those of us who just thought it was shh*t.

Mitch Connor · 02-05-2019 01:56PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

Yes, the gender of the characters was irrelevant to the movie, yet the male characters got the lion's share of the screen time. And that's probably because men made up the bulk of the main Avengers team in the movie. Of the 10 characters who travel back to the past; only two are women.

Black Widow has the start of a good arc here. She was the one keeping the show running five years later, she was the one making sure the world didn't get worse. But once it's decided they're going back in time, she takes a back seat to Cap. And then she's killed off.

Specific instances like the examples you give aren't good examples of representation if there aren't more substantive storylines for female characters as well. It can't just be a case of "here's your cool moment, now let the menfolk sort this out". It's like the gay guy at the start of the movie. Yes, it's great that we finally have a visible LGBT character in the movies, but he's a bit character there for no other purpose than to serve a specific plot point.

There's more to representation than just briefly appearing on screen. It's being an integral part of the story. And on that score, this movie and Marvel in general, fails.

Nebula and Widow were key to the story.

RayCun · 02-05-2019 01:58PM

I think the issues with representation in this movie are an effect of the representation issues in the earlier movies - Iron Man and Captain America had their own trilogies, Shuri, Wasp, and Captain Marvel are recent additions. Iron Man and Captain America are major, established characters that are being killed off in this movie, therefore they get a lot of screen time. Captain Marvel starred in her own movie just a few months ago and will be in more movies to come, so isn't going to get much time in this one.

Black Widow does get a lot of time in this movie. Could argue about what that time is used for, sure. Nebula gets quite a lot of time.

NuMarvel · 02-05-2019 02:14PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Nebula and Widow were key to the story.

I've already acknowledged that Widow has the best story in the movie of all the female characters.

Nebula's key role, the thing that couldn't happen without her, is to be captured and tortured so that the bad guy and the Avengers come face to face. And then to also shoot herself. And I just realised that the two main female characters both end up killing themselves (sorta)!

We could argue the merits of Nebula's story, but in any case, you're still talking about only two Avengers out of ten. So if gender doesn't matter as the previous poster said, is there a reason we couldn't have had more female avengers on the team?

Ping Chow Chi · 02-05-2019 02:28PM

I actually really liked that 'she has help' sequence. It was one of the many highlights of that titanic battle scene for me.

Penn · 02-05-2019 02:42PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

So if gender doesn't matter as the previous poster said, is there a reason we couldn't have had more female avengers on the team?

Marketability. And I don't mean in terms of "a female-led superhero movie wouldn't sell as well" or anything, I mean this is the culmination of 21 Marvel movies before it, but those 21 movies were based off the back of Marvel putting forward their most well-known and marketable superheroes that they had the rights to. Without the X-Men or Fantastic 4, they don't have a huge amount of big-name heroes, and definitely not female heroes. They had to go with the most recognisable they had until they built up enough where they could then take more of a chance on lesser-known heroes.

They had to lead off with Cap, Thor, Iron Man & Hulk. Black Widow was a nobody outside of comics. Hawkeye (and even Iron Man to an extent) weren't that huge outside of comics either. It was a while before they built up enough to take chances on the likes of GOTG & Doctor Strange. Captain Marvel has had an increasingly larger role in the comics over the last decade, but also wasn't a big name despite her powers.

So while there will almost definitely be more female heroes/Avengers further down the line, this movie is about the ending of some of the characters and stories that have been in the MCU thus far, hence the greater focus on those (Cap, Iron Man, Thor who have all had trilogies; whereas BW has never had a solo movie of her own).

Again though, when you take into account all the female heroes who did fight in this movie, there is still quite a lot of them. Pepper, Cap.Marvel, Wasp, Shuri, Okoye, Valkyrie, Scarlet Witch, Gamora, Nebula, Black Widow and Mantis off the top of my head. Outnumbered by males, yes, but still a lot of female heroes.

Mitch Connor · 02-05-2019 02:47PM

RayCun wrote: »

I think the issues with representation in this movie are an effect of the representation issues in the earlier movies - Iron Man and Captain America had their own trilogies, Shuri, Wasp, and Captain Marvel are recent additions. Iron Man and Captain America are major, established characters that are being killed off in this movie, therefore they get a lot of screen time. Captain Marvel starred in her own movie just a few months ago and will be in more movies to come, so isn't going to get much time in this one.

Black Widow does get a lot of time in this movie. Could argue about what that time is used for, sure. Nebula gets quite a lot of time.

Also, having Marvel in more of this movie would have created narrative problems cause having her means you don't need anyone else really - she took out the ship by herself!

I will be interested to see if Cap Marvel is planned to be the central character of the avengers moving forward.

I had kind of hoped that Shuri would replace Iron Man and Captain Marvel would replace Captain America. May happen, but dunno. We'll see.

Zubeneschamali · 02-05-2019 02:52PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I will be interested to see if Cap Marvel is planned to be the central character of the avengers moving forward.

I had kind of hoped that Shuri would replace Iron Man and Captain Marvel would replace Captain America.

Captain Marvel will replace Thor - he is also somewhat overpowered, being a Norse god and all.

Steve handed the shield to Falcon, who is the new completely non-superpowered Captain America. Hopefully dies really soon to let Bucky take over.

The only reason I can think of for that kid from Iron Man 3 to be in the funeral sequence is if we are going to get Teen Iron Man.

Hercule Poirot · 02-05-2019 02:54PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Also, having Marvel in more of this movie would have created narrative problems cause having her means you don't need anyone else really - she took out the ship by herself!

I will be interested to see if Cap Marvel is planned to be the central character of the avengers moving forward.

I had kind of hoped that Shuri would replace Iron Man and Captain Marvel would replace Captain America. May happen, but dunno. We'll see.

Fully agree with the Captain Marvel assessment, after I'd seen her standalone and people asked me what it was like my response was always the same: "You'll see why she was left till last"

She had to disappear for there to be any sense of danger - she could probably have completed all the mini missions to retrieve the stones by herself (with the exception of the Soul Stone of course) - when you have a massively overpowered hero you have to minimise their screen time (which they did) or give them a weakness (Superman and kryptonite being the most famous example)

RayCun · 02-05-2019 03:06PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Also, having Marvel in more of this movie would have created narrative problems cause having her means you don't need anyone else really - she took out the ship by herself!

I will be interested to see if Cap Marvel is planned to be the central character of the avengers moving forward.

well, like Thor in Infinity War, or like Hawkeye in Endgame, you give different characters different challenges. I expect Captain Marvel will be in space for most of her movies and 'called in' on Avengers movies (which wouldn't necessarily change her screen time, but Captain America and Black Panther(?) would be the ones seen as core team, the way Captain America and Black Widow were up to now)

Mitch Connor · 02-05-2019 03:15PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Captain Marvel will replace Thor - he is also somewhat overpowered, being a Norse god and all.

Steve handed the shield to Falcon, who is the new completely non-superpowered Captain America. Hopefully dies really soon to let Bucky take over.

The only reason I can think of for that kid from Iron Man 3 to be in the funeral sequence is if we are going to get Teen Iron Man.

But Thor hasn't gone anywhere. Looks like he is going to continue.

As for Falcon replacing Cap - there is more to replacing Cap than taking up the shield. It is the leadership and presence that he brings, and I think Marvel is way more suited to taking over from Cap in that respect than Falcon.

As for the kid... i'm hoping no, as there is nothing building to that.

branie2 · 02-05-2019 03:18PM

Thor really let himself go

Penn · 02-05-2019 03:23PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But Thor hasn't gone anywhere. Looks like he is going to continue.

As for Falcon replacing Cap - there is more to replacing Cap than taking up the shield. It is the leadership and presence that he brings, and I think Marvel is way more suited to taking over from Cap in that respect than Falcon.

As for the kid... i'm hoping no, as there is nothing building to that.

I think Sam might take on the mantle of Captain America without becoming the leader of the Avengers. I'd imagine leadership would fall between Thor (depending on how long he sticks around) and Cap.Marvel like you say. Maybe Black Panther as an outside shot given Thor and Captain Marvel are more off-world.

And the kid from Iron Man 3 was just there because it made sense for him to be at the funeral given his role in IM3, and he and Tony may have still kept in contact over the years. If the general mantle of Iron Man is going to be passed to anyone, it's more likely they'll go the Ironheart (Riri Williams) route, maybe keeping Don Cheadle in as a mentor for her.

Mitch Connor · 02-05-2019 03:26PM

Penn wrote: »

I think Sam might take on the mantle of Captain America without becoming the leader of the Avengers. I'd imagine leadership would fall between Thor (depending on how long he sticks around) and Cap.Marvel like you say. Maybe Black Panther as an outside shot given Thor and Captain Marvel are more off-world.

And the kid from Iron Man 3 was just there because it made sense for him to be at the funeral given his role in IM3, and he and Tony may have still kept in contact over the years. If the general mantle of Iron Man is going to be passed to anyone, it's more likely they'll go the Ironheart (Riri Williams) route, maybe keeping Don Cheadle in as a mentor for her.

My thinking was without Riri having been introduced at all, and with the reaction to Shui from fans, along with her tech abilities that it would be a very good fit to have her become Iron Heart. She has the brains, the fighting ability and the likable character to do it.

Hercule Poirot · 02-05-2019 03:45PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

My thinking was without Riri having been introduced at all, and with the reaction to Shui from fans, along with her tech abilities that it would be a very good fit to have her become Iron Heart. She has the brains, the fighting ability and the likable character to do it.

Don't think it necessarily needs to pass to Shuri - the MCU has managed to introduce new characters/heroes quite seamlessly in this universe and could quite easily introduce a few more if they wanted to - so it's not implausible that Riri could be used

Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

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Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]