Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

ManOfMystery

Plopsu wrote: »

For that matter, how are there ANY Asgardians? They were all on one ship and that ship was blown up in space.

Russo brothers confirmed in a Q&A last year that as per his usual approach, Thanos decimated half of the Asgardians on the ship and the remainder - including Valkyrie - got away on escape pods.

Plopsu wrote: »

Which is fair enough but if it doesn't need her in there, then why is she in there? Poor little Morgan. Two dangerously reckless parents instead of one. :pac:

I think you have to consider the stakes here. It is literally the fate of the universe at stake. They've already been decimated by Thanos once, and now he's back - but with an army, and on Earth. I think it made sense that every superpowered being or anyone with access to the likes of Iron Man's suits would feel they had to stand alongside their comrades and friends and make a final stand against Thanos.

Sonics2k wrote: »

Cap saying "Hail Hydra" really got me. Fantastic reference the recent comic event which pissed off a lot of people.

Agreed, loved the fact they went this route. It was a subversion of events; we expected to see Cap blitz the enemy group in the elevator again but he employed a very different technique.

Plopsu

ManOfMystery wrote: »

Russo brothers confirmed in a Q&A last year that as per his usual approach, Thanos decimated half of the Asgardians on the ship and the remainder - including Valkyrie - got away on escape pods.



I think you have to consider the stakes here. It is literally the fate of the universe at stake. They've already been decimated by Thanos once, and now he's back - but with an army, and on Earth. I think it made sense that every superpowered being or anyone with access to the likes of Iron Man's suits would feel they had to stand alongside their comrades and friends and make a final stand against Thanos.

Sounds like the Russo brothers like making sh*t up to explain their mistakes. Were these super deluxe escape pods that could travel interstellar distances? Why didn't the GotG find the pods when they found Thor?

All Pepper had to do was activate the suit, if it had some sort of auto-combat mode as suggested above. And if it didn't, she was a liability. She also came through a portal, which means one of the wizards went to get her. That just makes no sense.

Don't even get me started on the 'arrive to a battle and instantly remove your headgear' moment.

Ave Sodalis

Plopsu wrote:

Sounds like the Russo brothers like making sh*t up to explain their mistakes. Were these super deluxe escape pods that could travel interstellar distances? Why didn't the GotG find the pods when they found Thor?

Considering the distress call went out, there's a good chance they were picked up. GotG were pretty late to the scene. Wiping out half the population was always Thanos 1's goals and before he got the stones, he would always divide a civilisation in half and kill one half.

Plopsu wrote:

All Pepper had to do was activate the suit, if it had some sort of auto-combat mode as suggested above. And if it didn't, she was a liability. She also came through a portal, which means one of the wizards went to get her. That just makes no sense.

She had the largest collection of super high tech power suits which are proven to be effective against invading aliens, in her garage.

Mitch Connor

Plopsu wrote: »

Which is fair enough but if it doesn't need her in there, then why is she in there? Poor little Morgan. Two dangerously reckless parents instead of one. :pac:

She was part of the 1 scenario they could win. Everyone in the battle was essential.

ManOfMystery

Plopsu wrote: »

Sounds like the Russo brothers like making sh*t up to explain their mistakes. Were these super deluxe escape pods that could travel interstellar distances? Why didn't the GotG find the pods when they found Thor?

All Pepper had to do was activate the suit, if it had some sort of auto-combat mode as suggested above. And if it didn't, she was a liability. She also came through a portal, which means one of the wizards went to get her. That just makes no sense.

Don't even get me started on the 'arrive to a battle and instantly remove your headgear' moment.

I think at some point with any sci-fi film, and especially a comic-based superhero one which is trying to tie together strands from 22 different films and feature a massive ensemble of popular characters ............ PLUS throw in time travel and alternate timelines ........... you have to allow some suspension of disbelief and focus on the larger narrative they're trying to tell.

Are there plot issues and storyline flaws like those you've mentioned? Yes, if you look for them - it's not a perfect film. But on the other hand, a film universe with ambitions of this scale has never been done before and I think on the whole they've really done a sterling job of it.

Plopsu

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

She had the largest collection of super high tech power suits which are proven to be effective against invading aliens, in her garage.

One of which turned up?

Plopsu

Mitch Connor wrote: »

She was part of the 1 scenario they could win. Everyone in the battle was essential.

I think that's what they call lazy writing, Mitch.

Ave Sodalis

Plopsu wrote:

One of which turned up?

Yup, because bar Tony and Rhodes, she's the only one to have piloted one.

Plopsu

ManOfMystery wrote: »

I think at some point with any sci-fi film, and especially a comic-based superhero one which is trying to tie together strands from 22 different films and feature a massive ensemble of popular characters ............ PLUS throw in time travel and alternate timelines ........... you have to allow some suspension of disbelief and focus on the larger narrative they're trying to tell.

Are there plot issues and storyline flaws like those you've mentioned? Yes, if you look for them - it's not a perfect film. But on the other hand, a film universe with ambitions of this scale has never been done before and I think on the whole they've really done a sterling job of it.

It's not a question of looking for the flaws, you can't miss them. There were aspects of the final battle that reminded me of X3. Just throw in every character in the universe, so people can go, oh look it's...

I'm not saying the MCU isn't a cinematic achievement. It obviously is. All the more reason why its finale should have been perfect. It's not like they're amateurs.

Plopsu

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Yup, because bar Tony and Rhodes, she's the only one to have piloted one.

Briefly and clumsily iirc. The point made above was that the suit had an autopilot which is the only way she wouldn't have been a liability in the battle. If it had that it didn't need her inside. If the other suits had it (likely unless Stark decided to completely remove the very useful iron legion protocol), they why weren't they brought along?

Mitch Connor

Plopsu wrote: »

Briefly and clumsily iirc. The point made above was that the suit had an autopilot which is the only way she wouldn't have been a liability in the battle. If it had that it didn't need her inside. If the other suits had it (likely unless Stark decided to completely remove the very useful iron legion protocol), they why weren't they brought along?

he destroyed the automated suites after Iron Man 3.

Ave Sodalis

Plopsu wrote:

Briefly and clumsily iirc. The point made above was that the suit had an autopilot which is the only way she wouldn't have been a liability in the battle. If it had that it didn't need her inside. If the other suits had it (likely unless Stark decided to completely remove the very useful iron legion protocol), they why weren't they brought along?

Who would you have suggested wearing them? She may not have worn them often, but she had a good understanding of how they worked. If the biggest threat in the universe landed tomorrow, would you really just sit there, despite having one of the best suits of armour for your use? If someone had one of the best suits of armour, would you leave them out of the fight?

Plopsu

Mitch Connor wrote: »

he destroyed the automated suites after Iron Man 3.

So, in reality she didn't have "the largest collection of super high tech power suits which are proven to be effective against invading aliens, in her garage". She had one... as the others were useless. One..... that she had never used. One.... that she had flown something similar to, briefly and clumsily, once before. One...... which either had and autopilot which rendered her presence pointless or didn't which rendered her a lialbility.

Plopsu

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Who would you have suggested wearing them? She may not have worn them often, but she had a good understanding of how they worked. If the biggest threat in the universe landed tomorrow, would you really just sit there, despite having one of the best suits of armour for your use? If someone had one of the best suits of armour, would you leave them out of the fight?

Have you ever been in a fight??
From the top. If you put somebody with no experience or skill into a tank and send them into a pitched battle, they will likely kill as many of their own side as the enemy. Even moreso if it's a flying tank.

ManOfMystery

No-one knows what exactly happened in the 5yr gap between IW and EG. Lots of stuff may have happened offscreen.

Thanos decimated half the universe and the Avengers took a massive personal hit on this as they lost that battle. It wouldn't surprise me if Potts entire attitude towards Tony's 'obsessions' with his suits (and his proposed 'suit of armour around the world') took a U-turn when she realised the scale of the threats out there, and Tony trained her in use of a suit.

Yes it's somewhat lazy writing to not actually explain that but the film had a lot to squeeze into it's 3hr runtime and some of the offscreen stuff is simply going to have to be left to audience assumption.

Plopsu

ManOfMystery wrote: »

No-one knows what exactly happened in the 5yr gap between IW and EG. Lots of stuff may have happened offscreen.

Thanos decimated half the universe and the Avengers took a massive personal hit on this as they lost that battle. It wouldn't surprise me if Potts entire attitude towards Tony's 'obsessions' with his suits (and his proposed 'suit of armour around the world') took a U-turn when she realised the scale of the threats out there, and Tony trained her in use of a suit.

Yes it's somewhat lazy writing to not actually explain that but the film had a lot to squeeze into it's 3hr runtime and some of the offscreen stuff is simply going to have to be left to audience assumption.

When can we expect our cheques from the studio? Y'know, if we're going to have to write the movie for them.

Ave Sodalis

Plopsu wrote:

So, in reality she didn't have "the largest collection of super high tech power suits which are proven to be effective against invading aliens, in her garage". She had one... as the others were useless. One..... that she had never used. One.... that she had flown something similar to, briefly and clumsily, once before. One...... which either had and autopilot which rendered her presence pointless or didn't which rendered her a lialbility.

She still has. She also definitely has more than one (the helmet from the start of the movie is different from the one she wears).

Plopsu wrote:

Have you ever been in a fight?? From the top. If you put somebody with no experience or skill into a tank and send them into a pitched battle, they will likely kill as many of their own side as the enemy. Even moreso if it's a flying tank.

Which would be true if it was a normal lay person, but I think Pepper isn't quite so useless in a fight.

Plopsu

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

She still has. She also definitely has more than one (the helmet from the start of the movie is different from the one she wears).




Which would be true if it was a normal lay person, but I think Pepper isn't quite so useless in a fight.

Yes but the fact that there is more than one is irrelevant. Effectively, she has one.
Can you back up the second part of the quote with anything at all that has been seen in any of the movies?

SuprSi

Plopsu wrote: »

Yes but the fact that there is more than one is irrelevant. Effectively, she has one.
Can you back up the second part of the quote with anything at all that has been seen in any of the movies?

End of Iron Man 3 - she kicks Aldrich Killian's ass. Granted she was infected with that virus, but nobody knows whether that was temporary or not.

Foxtrol

Plopsu wrote: »

When can we expect our cheques from the studio? Y'know, if we're going to have to write the movie for them.

Do you really need to be hand fed, directly showing or telling you, how every character can to do everything in a movie?

There’s plenty in this and previous movies to show that Pepper would have functional experience in the suits and how advanced and user friendly the suits have become (auto kill in Spiderman’s suit in the exact same scene), obviously Tony would include everything possible to make the suit easy for her. Your comparison to someone with no skill using a tank is just plain wrong.

Plopsu

SuprSi wrote: »

End of Iron Man 3 - she kicks Aldrich Killian's ass. Granted she was infected with that virus, but nobody knows whether that was temporary or not.

I'd have to watch it again *shudder* but wouldn't it have killed her if it was permanent? (not rhetorical, I genuinely can't remember but think it was destroying her).

Plopsu

Foxtrol wrote: »

Do you really need to be hand fed, directly showing or telling you, how every character can to do everything in a movie?

There’s plenty in this and previous movies to show that Pepper would have functional experience in the suits and how advanced and user friendly the suits have become (auto kill in Spiderman’s suit in the exact same scene), obviously Tony would include everything possible to make the suit easy for her. Your comparison to someone with no skill using a tank is just plain wrong.

Maybe you should read everything I wrote. Or do I have to hand feed it to you. I'm not repeating myself again. :rolleyes:

Actually, other than her appearance at the battle at the end, what in Endgame shows her functional experience?

Penn

Plopsu wrote: »

I'd have to watch it again *shudder* but wouldn't it have killed her if it was permanent? (not rhetorical, I genuinely can't remember but think it was destroying her).

It wouldn't have killed her, but it was either removed or wore off. Either way, that movie was set in 2013, so it's not unreasonable that in the 10 years after she learned how to use the suits in the event of emergencies (which tend to happen to them and especially as Tony was still Avengering up to at least Civil War, if not after). Plus the suits are mostly automated anyway so she may not have required a lot of training to use it.

ManOfMystery

Plopsu wrote: »

Maybe you should read everything I wrote. Or do I have to hand feed it to you. I'm not repeating myself again. :rolleyes:

Actually, other than her appearance at the battle at the end, what in Endgame shows her functional experience?

There's no answer here that will satisfy you. They should have showed Potts getting training in the suits but that didn't happen, so in the end we have to accept it as a plot device (weak as you may think it is) in order that she would be on the same battlefield as Tony and be there at the point of his death for that emotional impact.

Plopsu

Penn wrote: »

It wouldn't have killed her, but it was either removed or wore off. Either way, that movie was set in 2013, so it's not unreasonable that in the 10 years after she learned how to use the suits in the event of emergencies (which tend to happen to them and especially as Tony was still Avengering up to at least Civil War, if not after). Plus the suits are mostly automated anyway so she may not have required a lot of training to use it.

Hmmm.... funny how smoothly people are continuing other people's conversations.
If the virus wore off or was removed then it's irrelevant to the discussion.
No, it's not impossible that she trained but there's no indication of it. And iirc, she's been pretty consistent in her dislike of Tony's activities since they got together, so it would be a bit of a turnaround for the character, to put it mildly. If the suits don't need training to use and there a lots of them, then why didn't a bunch of other people suit up?

Foxtrol

Plopsu wrote: »

Maybe you should read everything I wrote. Or do I have to hand feed it to you. I'm not repeating myself again. :rolleyes:

I did and you clearly can’t accept the points throughout the MCU movies that explains her use of the suit because it wasn’t directly force fed to you in this movie.

It sounds like you would only be satisfied with a line in it where Tony says to his kid:

‘I’m building Mommy a suit for her birthday, she’s been practicing a lot with mine due the trauma caused by 50% of the population turning to dust and we don’t know when another big bad guy might turn up and she might need to help out. Despite how it has been shown throughout the Iron Man, Avengers, and Spiderman movies that the suits are becoming more and more automated and easy to use, I would like to point also out that her suit will also have this functionality.’

It was somewhat forced to include her in the battle, but that goes for most of the characters there and it was 100% worth it to me. There is however plenty that explains how she could have a suit and be able to use it, but you're acting like it is something outrageous like as if Tony's daughter had turned up in a suit.

Plopsu

ManOfMystery wrote: »

There's no answer here that will satisfy you. They should have showed Potts getting training in the suits but that didn't happen, so in the end we have to accept it as a plot device (weak as you may think it is) in order that she would be on the same battlefield as Tony and be there at the point of his death for that emotional impact.

Another smooth continuation.
There's no answer here that will satisfy me because there have been no answers here. They didn't have to show her getting training, it could have simply been mentioned. I could even point out where it could have been seamlessly placed. As it stands, with what's seen in this and other movies, it makes no real sense for her to be there.

Edit
^^^^^ there y'go, even Foxtrol was able to place the line easily.

Plopsu

Foxtrol wrote: »

I did and you clearly can’t accept the points throughout the MCU movies that explains her use of the suit because it wasn’t directly force fed to you in this movie.

It sounds like you would only be satisfied with a line in it where Tony says to his kid:



It was somewhat forced to include her in the battle, but that goes for most of the characters there and it was 100% worth it to me. There is however plenty that explains how she could have a suit and be able to use it, but you're acting like it is something outrageous like as if Tony's daughter had turned up in a suit.

What, you mean I'd have been more satisfied with dialogue that explained her ability to use advanced weaponry? Yes I would. And throughout the movies, prior to this, she has used a suit once... with difficulty. If you think that explains her zipping around a pitched battle.... then I guess you're very forgiving when it comes to poor writing.

Tazzimus

The suit should have an AI in it to assist her, same way Tony's suits do. He doesn't do all that on his own.

She also very briefly wore his suit in IM3 and has possibly had Tony show her how to operate them in an emergency, or a "rescue" situation if you will.
Lot can happen in the 5 years that went by in Endgame

Plopsu

Tazzimus wrote: »

The suit should have an AI in it to assist her, same way Tony's suits do. He doesn't do all that on his own.

She also very briefly wore his suit in IM3 and has possibly had Tony show her how to operate them in an emergency, or a "rescue" situation if you will.
Lot can happen in the 5 years that went by in Endgame

Not to be rude but do you have anything to add that hasn't already been said, countered, resaid, recountered.....

It's like I've wandered into Sock Shop. I'll leave how ever many (few) of you there actually are to it.