Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

kowloon · 21-04-2019 7:22pm

Cass wrote: »

I believe, and correct me if i'm wrong kowloon, but the point is more about the legislation and this cartridge while outdated/obsolete, seems to break the mold in that it's both restricted and a rimfire.

Yeah, this is where my confusion arises:

(c) the following long firearms (not being assault rifles or bullpup rifles):

(i) single-shot or repeating rifled centre-fire firearms of a calibre not exceeding 7.62 millimetres (.308 inch) and whose overall length is greater than 90 centimetres,

(ii) single-shot, repeating or semi-automatic rim-fire firearms designed to fire rim-fire percussion ammunition and with a magazine having a capacity of not more than 10 rounds

Would the above not imply that the 7.62/.308 only applies to centrefire cartridges? The definition of cenrtrefire that they have seems to include anything with a percussion cap in the cartridge, so pinfire is included but I think you would have a case for the likes of lipfire or some of the other lond obsolete systems out there.
I find the way these things are written to be so counter-intuitive.

You could defend the .303 on the grounds that 7.62 isn't .308 inches either. And while you might be able to mix 7.62 and .308 as if they're the same thing they're actually different specs by different organisations.

tac foley · 21-04-2019 8:06pm

Definition of CENTRE-fire, or as it was earlier known 'CENTRAL fire' and the subject of a number of patents at the time, was the FACT that the priming percussion cap is located CENTRALLY in the 'fabric' of the cartridge case and visible externally and accessibly to the impingement of the striker or firing pin.

That obviates your pin-fire cartridge, which has a capsule of lead stifnate INSIDE the case, not visible to the naked eye, and is NOT directly struck by the firing pin or hammer except by an intercepting pin which IS struck by the hammer.

In any case, do you really think that people who can argue that a .303 is not a .303, and that a .308 can accurately be fired five miles and kill a person, and that a .303 is far too accurate to be allowed in the possession of any civilian are going to give a hoot about the niceties of central/centre/pin/lip etc fire?

It's hard enough for the average Joe in the RoI to get ANY kind of a formerly military calibre especially when the issuing authorities are often reading from documentation written on the advice of experts who have 'opinions' about what constitutes a calibre, rather than use established and documented facts.

kowloon · 21-04-2019 8:52pm

Their definition of centrefire is a little mad for sure.

“centre-fire firearms” means firearms using centre-fire percussion ammunition;

“centre-fire percussion ammunition” means ammunition containing a percussion cap;

It doesn detail where the cap is, so it doesn't have to be central or external as far as the law is concerned. So they can argue that pinfire is centrefire, even though it's obvious to anyone that it really isn't.

Then there's anything that is just a pellet of primer, you can argue that's not a cap, but if it's still part of a 'unitary cartridge' which Justice say is their rule for what is considered an antique then you're still forking out for a licence and the hassle that goes with it. I think they used to say anything pre-breechloading qualified as antique.

tac foley · 21-04-2019 9:00pm

Hmm.

I'm bowing out of this thread before I say something that might get me [rightfully] banned.

Grizzly 45 · 23-04-2019 10:07pm

An intresting article for this time of year in Ireland. The guns of the Easter rising
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/3/17/guns-of-the-easter-rising/

tac foley · 23-04-2019 10:15pm

I never cease to be amazed at just how well this bunch of 'ragamuffins' did against what was at that time the best army in Europe

Grizzly 45 · 24-04-2019 1:32am

Pity that their only two people with some sort of military experience never got to be used to their ful potential in this story.The O Rahily and Robt Monteith.Both who always said the plans were utter military suicide.It was only going to be a matter of time before the Irish were going to be crushed.A smaller force-locking itself in a static position holding ground is always going to be overwhelmed eventually.Add to that sheer bloody bad luck of the signals party to the Aud being killed in a car accident in Kerry on Good Friday,no backup plans to handle that sort of an event, and the confusion of cancelling the parade for the start of the rising on Easter Sunday,putting everyone on a day off and at the Kildare races.It is indeed a wonder that it ever got going at all.

kowloon · 24-04-2019 3:03pm

It going wrong and the leaders being executed probably helped the cause more, even if it wasn't so great for the individuals involved.

I've seem some of the modified Gras and Chassepot bayonets for sale about the place. The bayonets were hand fitted to the gun, so even if they had the right model guns they might still have to spend a little time getting them to fit right.

judestynes · 29-04-2019 7:00pm

kowloon wrote: »

It going wrong and the leaders being executed probably helped the cause more, even if it wasn't so great for the individuals involved.

Something not many think about. Yes the executions helped the cause but on top of that the method of execution. If they were hanged which was the sentence for treason at the time the same sentence as a common criminal the collective memory of them could be entirely different then being recognised as soldiers and dying a soldiers death. I know that Casement was hanged and he's not held in the same reverence as the others though he paid the same price. In truth he paid more as they blackened his name 1st

Grizzly 45 · 29-04-2019 8:59pm

Considering he [Casement]had" a whiff of lavender" about him as they said back then,and it was about 20/25 years since the Oscar Wilde trial.Being that way inclined was a social death sentence that the English were definately going to use,considering his famous "black diary" played a massive part in his trial.

Nekarsulm · 01-05-2019 7:11am

There is a Veterli-Vitali rifle in a local auction house in quite good condition, not sure if its for the next sale or not. .

Very distinctive "magazine" on them.

tac foley · 01-05-2019 10:08am

Looks like some interesting arms there.

Grizzly 45 · 01-05-2019 12:32pm

Always fancied a blunderbuss...Any idea how much the one in the pic went for?

solarwinds · 01-05-2019 12:50pm

What is that sitting on the press to the left seems to have a very ornate grip.

tac foley · 01-05-2019 1:19pm

It has the look of an Ottoman/turkish/Mughal pistol with a dog lock.

Nekarsulm · 01-05-2019 5:48pm

Guys, I dont know about prices etc, none had auction numbers on them, and the boss wasn't about.
Lots of stuff he sells is like something you'd see wired to a pub wall over a fireplace.
The rifle caught my eye because it hasn't been butchered...

tac foley · 01-05-2019 6:38pm

That is probably the saddest-looking Vetterli-Vitali I've ever clapped eyes on. Here on the mainland it might raise £250 on a good day...

Nekarsulm · 01-05-2019 9:16pm

tac foley wrote: »

That is probably the saddest-looking Vetterli-Vitali I've ever clapped eyes on. Here on the mainland it might raise £250 on a good day...

True, but if it could be proven to be either an Ulster Volunteer or Irish National Volunteer rifle, that would make it more interesting to me

Grizzly 45 · 01-05-2019 9:49pm

Didnt the UVF ,brand mark their guns?? The few I've seen had a brand mark of the Ulster hand and UVF "God and Ulster" motto somewhere on the stock?

Grizzly 45 · 01-05-2019 9:49pm

Didnt te UVF ,brand mark their guns?? The few I've seen had a brand mark of the Ulster hand and UVF "God and Ulster" motto somewhere on the stock?

tac foley · 01-05-2019 11:16pm

My old Boer War Mauser carbine certainly got used, against the Brits in Sarth Efrica, but its owner came a cropper when they took on the Australians on May 10th, 1901.

Grizzly 45 · 02-05-2019 12:52pm

Just browsing an article in the Limerick Post about the gang warfare in Limerick,an little paragraph caught my attention about the State Solicitor Micheal Murray "Having recived basic firearms training in the Garda firearms range in Templemore,the 72 year old decided,"that is carrying a gun for my own protection,I'd be making things more dangerous"...[True enough,if you dont know if you can pull the trigger in the most gravest of extremes,and cant put in the required trigger time either.]

www.limerickpost.ie/digital/2019/2019-05-04/html5/

So if this IS the case,then there must be some sort of policy or protocol,or decision making process out there with AGS to authorise concealed carry to persons at risk,but obviously only to people who are MUCH more important than the likes of us peasents.

And a further gear grinder for me is Mr Murray featured quite abit in the restricted firearms court cases here in Limerick back then.Whichthey lost.But the hyprocrisy is sickening of this state.:mad::mad: "It's Ok to train up one of our own to a basic level and give him a deadly weapon,but those who want to shoot bits of paper and steel are an utter danger to the state's public order and saftey."

Grizzly 45 · 03-05-2019 2:45pm

Strange that an animal rights fanatic can get to meet the NPWS RE the phoenix park deer culls,and responsible deer hunting organisations cant ??? I'd put Broxton in the Greta Thunberg line of expertise on deer culling as the miserable Swedish one is on climate change .Are we letting teenagers and zealots decide policies these days??

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/office-public-works-consider-alternative-16214288?utm_sAYOjtrAwfR3g1aHZvCFEs5kvYo

yubabill · 04-05-2019 8:31am

Putting this here for future reference.

Article by Tom Clonan the other day on Drogheda gun feud quoting a research paper which concludes there is no link between gun ownership and firearm homicide.

Duhhhh.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281282103_Firearms_and_Violent_Deaths_in_Europe_An_Exploratory_Analysis_of_the_Linkages_Between_Gun_Ownership_Firearms_Legislation_and_Violent_Death

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-ireland-is-the-homicide-by-firearm-capital-of-the-eu-so-why-is-our-government-so-complacent-4615315-May2019/

deezell · 04-05-2019 11:35am

yubabill wrote: »

Putting this here for future reference.

Article by Tom Clonan the other day on Drogheda gun feud quoting a research paper which concludes there is no link between gun ownership and firearm homicide.

Duhhhh.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281282103_Firearms_and_Violent_Deaths_in_Europe_An_Exploratory_Analysis_of_the_Linkages_Between_Gun_Ownership_Firearms_Legislation_and_Violent_Death

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-ireland-is-the-homicide-by-firearm-capital-of-the-eu-so-why-is-our-government-so-complacent-4615315-May2019/

That's true. Gun killers don't "own' their guns. They just borrow them.

tac foley · 04-05-2019 12:10pm

Here on mainland UK, it is said that a handgun without ammunition can be hired to 'do a job' ie, intimidation, for a hundred pounds, but one that has ammunition will 'cost' five hundred pounds and 'don't bring it back'.

So 'tis said............

Grizzly 45 · 04-05-2019 12:34pm

Flemish peace institute, not known for their pro-gun ownership or anything to do with them stance.But the kernel point of their argument holds true.
Typical Clonan article...The poor army hasn't got enough of this that and the other, it's all the govts fault etc. While you are at it Tom, have a look at maybe our most restrictive gun laws in the entire EU,[Greece not the UK is actually on par with us for restrictions.] and maybe argue for once, and redeem yourself for that hatchet job you did on us in 2006. That strict gun laws only hurt the law abiding and not the criminals here?

Nekarsulm · 04-05-2019 12:52pm

yubabill wrote: »

Putting this here for future reference.

Article by Tom Clonan the other day on Drogheda gun feud quoting a research paper which concludes there is no link between gun ownership and firearm homicide.

Duhhhh.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281282103_Firearms_and_Violent_Deaths_in_Europe_An_Exploratory_Analysis_of_the_Linkages_Between_Gun_Ownership_Firearms_Legislation_and_Violent_Death

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-ireland-is-the-homicide-by-firearm-capital-of-the-eu-so-why-is-our-government-so-complacent-4615315-May2019/

I wonder what these "automatic handguns" the gangsters have are?
Fired at "point blank range" while on "rapid fire"?

When will a journalist bother their arše to learn even basic facts about firearms?

tac foley · 04-05-2019 1:43pm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I wonder what these "automatic handguns" the gangsters have are?
Fired at "point blank range" while on "rapid fire"?

When will a journalist bother their arše to learn even basic facts about firearms?

Never going to happen, Sir. The level of ignorance of the reporting press is equalled only by that of our fine 'boys in blue'.

On both sides of the Irish Sea.

Grizzly 45 · 04-05-2019 2:05pm

Scary thing is Clonan should know the basics of firearms terminology as he was a comissioned officer in the Irish army...Or maybe officers arent required to know this anymore?Considering it was a clown from the US army who gave us the term "full semi auto" on CNN last year.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

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