Public/Private worker gap to grow

Twenty Grand · 22-04-2019 07:59PM

RWCNT wrote: »

Where does this idea about people working from home dossing come from?
.

Ignorance and begrudgery.

22-04-2019 10:00PM

Doc07 wrote: »

Painful anecdotes without any moderation on disengenous populist radio show aside, Maternity care in Ireland is not substandard, far from it.

I'm no fan of the Whingeline, and as will be clear from the discussions on this thread, I don't do the public sector bashing that is popular in Irish media.

However, having heard clips from this show, there is something different going on here. There was an undeniable trend of women suffering physical and emotional damage during childbirth. Many of these had permanent effects - loss of mobility, ongoing double incontinence, inability to work, inability to mind the child. One woman had lost her relationship and her job, and was about to lose her house while her case against the hospital dragged on. One women had 14 medical procedures over the 3-4 years since the birth to try unsuccessfully to repair the damage.

On the emotional side, there was a trend of patriarchal attitudes from mostly male gynecologists, but also repeated dismissals by the mostly female midwives of any feedback given by the mothers, and just plain bitchy comments to put down the patient and keep them passive rather than active partners.

I'm past the stage of being involved in maternity hospital services, but I was really chilled by what I heard.

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Within the context of demands for more pay, they are

What does this even mean? How can an editorial decision to focus on a particular problem area for more than two weeks - a pretty much unprecedented approach for Liveline which generally moves onto new topics daily, or after a couple of days at most - be considered to be "resolutely pro public sector" in any context? With friends like that, who needs enemies?

22-04-2019 10:05PM

So OP can't support statement and disappears?

Twenty Grand · 23-04-2019 10:04AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm no fan of the Whingeline, and as will be clear from the discussions on this thread, I don't do the public sector bashing that is popular in Irish media.

However, having heard clips from this show, there is something different going on here. There was an undeniable trend of women suffering physical and emotional damage during childbirth.

Is this trend better or worse than international standards?
I would look at statistical trends before listening to Live Line stories.

23-04-2019 11:24AM

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Is this trend better or worse than international standards?
I would look at statistical trends before listening to Live Line stories.

In terms of medical outcomes, you are of course correct. There are are two benefits of airing these issues in Livelive.

First, it sets out the clear reality of what can happen in childbirth, even in worst case scenario. Personally, I had no idea that one possible outcome of problems in childbirth would mean double incontinence for life.

Secondly, it it raises the attitudinal issues that wont come out in any statistical analysis - and they were pretty awful.

23-04-2019 11:51AM

backspin. wrote: »

Public servants are just better people all round. Harder workers, more contentious, better behaved, more educated, more helpful, the list goes on. ...........

Are you serious?
Goons on €40k / annum doing jobs that would command a rate of a €10/hour in the private sector............. COs are public servants iirc.

Also AGS might have a degree but so too does lots of the private sector.

and about being better behaved........... lots of the fookers are strike happy

23-04-2019 11:59AM

Augeo wrote: »

Are you serious?
Goons on €40k / annum doing jobs that would command a rate of a €10/hour in the private sector....

What particular roles/people are you referring to here?

enricoh · 23-04-2019 02:24PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So OP can't support statement and disappears?

Was in the front page of yesterday's sunday indo, all public service to get full pay for the extra weeks off. 7 weeks off by 2021 i think it was. Private sector to get 230 ish maternity benefit n then down to the employer whether they pay the balance or not.
Quite possibly the googles n intels will but the vast majority of employers cant or wont.

23-04-2019 02:59PM

enricoh wrote: »

Was in the front page of yesterday's sunday indo, all public service to get full pay for the extra weeks off. 7 weeks off by 2021 i think it was. Private sector to get 230 ish maternity benefit n then down to the employer whether they pay the balance or not.
Quite possibly the googles n intels will but the vast majority of employers cant or wont.

So same as maternity benefits then? Do you want to cut that back too now, or should the State be a decent employer that facilitates parents to raise a family.

23-04-2019 03:08PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What particular roles/people are you referring to here?

Folk in the various motor tax offices would be the most visible that most people have first hand experience of.
Any similar type role I am referring to, there's a large enough list really......CO jobs in general.

An in the context of replying to this "Public servants are just better people all round. Harder workers, more contentious, better behaved, more educated, more helpful, the list goes on" ......... I know some public servants are skilled and qualified etc but a CO is a leaving cert standard job.

Yurt2 · 23-04-2019 03:17PM

Augeo wrote: »

Folk in the various motor tax offices would be the most visible that most people have first hand experience of.
Any similar type role I am referring to, there's a large enough list really......CO jobs in general.

An in the context of replying to this "Public servants are just better people all round. Harder workers, more contentious, better behaved, more educated, more helpful, the list goes on" ......... I know some public servants are skilled and qualified etc but a CO is a leaving cert standard job.

Clerical officers start on 23k, and at the top of the scale (after 14 years) they still don't hit 40k (they top out at 36k).

enricoh · 23-04-2019 03:23PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So same as maternity benefits then? Do you want to cut that back too now, or should the State be a decent employer that facilitates parents to raise a family.

The state is so decent to its employees it pays them 40% more than the private sector does. Just pure vote buying, yet again.
Iirc we are the third most heavily indebted country in the first world. Are we gonna aim to be number 1!

Riskymove · 23-04-2019 03:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

So OP can't support statement and disappears?

it appears that his work here is done

I tip my hat to him for creating such a classic ranting Private vs public thread.... based on pure misinformation

I haven't seen one as successful since the height of the crash period

congrats to you sir

theguzman · 23-04-2019 03:28PM

I look forward to the next crushing recession, FG and FF will be toast and a proper populist Far-Right party will sweep to power, the first thing that needs to happen is crush the Trade Unions and dismantle and break up the entire public and civil service.

Give the Guards a huge payrise and arm them, then break every single Union in this country, starve them out like Thatcher did in the 80's. Slash and Burn the public sector, and privatise the whole lot. Cut the tax take from over 70% currently to 25% and breaking the trade unions will be the first step to the proper recovery of this country, not this current false Dublin-boom economy.

23-04-2019 03:30PM

Augeo wrote: »

Folk in the various motor tax offices would be the most visible that most people have first hand experience of.
Any similar type role I am referring to, there's a large enough list really......CO jobs in general.

Most of the motor tax offices are long closed, with the advent of the online service;

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/just-single-motor-tax-office-to-be-left-in-dublin-30607188.html

But if you're referring to local authority clerical officers, they start out on €23k, and would only reach €40k after 13 years of service with satisfactory performance. As in any organisation, somebody who's been in a role for 13 years will be taking on the more complex aspects of the role, and providing greater value, same as many private sector roles where staff will get increases over time reflecting their greater experience in the role. They'll also be paying pension deductions despite the fact that they'll get no or very little occupational pension above the standard contributory pensions.

Riskymove · 23-04-2019 03:35PM

enricoh wrote: »

Was in the front page of yesterday's sunday indo, all public service to get full pay for the extra weeks off. 7 weeks off by 2021 i think it was. Private sector to get 230 ish maternity benefit n then down to the employer whether they pay the balance or not.
Quite possibly the googles n intels will but the vast majority of employers cant or wont.

IBEC research - majority of companies pay full pay or a contribution

Some 228 companies provided information in relation to their provision of a top-up payment to employees availing of maternity leave. The majority of respondents, 138 (61%) provided some level of maternity payment top-up to employees on maternity leave.

Details of top-up payment Number (%) of respondents
Top-up to full pay for full 26 weeks 93 (41%)
Top-up to full pay for less than 26 weeks 18 (8%)
Top-up to less than full pay for full 26 weeks 18 (8%)
Top-up to less than full pay for less than 26 weeks 9 (4%)
Company does not top-up maternity pay 90 (40%)
Total 228 (100%)

93 (41%) of IBEC companies who responded paid full pay for all 26 weeks

20% paid something on top of benefit

40% pay nothing

https://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/DFB.nsf/vPages/Research_and_surveys~Employer_Issues~2018-spring-hr-update-report-23-07-2018/$file/HR%20Update%202018%20Report.pdf

Ush1 · 23-04-2019 03:39PM

Ronnie Tiny Warden wrote: »

You need to take it up with your employer. Two of our family, who are Private Sector workers, got full pay less the amount of the Paternity Benefit payment.

Paternity leave is not parental leave.

23-04-2019 03:48PM

Yurt! wrote: »

Clerical officers start on 23k, and at the top of the scale (after 14 years) they still don't hit 40k (they top out at 36k).

Yeah, that's fair enough.
€10/hour jobs are always €10/hour jobs in the private sector though.......... you'd don't get €15/hour for being there 14 years longer.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

........

But if you're referring to local authority clerical officers, they start out on €23k, and would only reach €40k after 13 years of service with satisfactory performance. As in any organisation, somebody who's been in a role for 13 years will be taking on the more complex aspects of the role,................

I don't reckon there's much complexity to the roles to be honest.
I've no intention of gaining the first hand experience to find out either before you suggest I do.

23-04-2019 03:53PM

Augeo wrote: »

I've no intention of gaining the first hand experience to find out either before you suggest I do.

yet no doubt you think your opinion worth something regardless

23-04-2019 03:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

yet no doubt you think your opinion worth something regardless

Well folk who start on €23k rise to €36k after 14 years and then get no more.
I reckon they can perform the role at €23k, that's basically what it warrants, the increments are simply to keep the monkeys in the zoo.

One doesn't need to work as a clerical officer to have a valid view on if they are being overpaid or not. they are €10/hour jobs that many folk get much more to do as they've been there years. It's conceptually simple.

23-04-2019 04:00PM

Augeo wrote: »

Yeah, that's fair enough.
€10/hour jobs are always €10/hour jobs in the private sector though.......... you'd don't get €15/hour for being there 14 years longer.

I don't reckon there's much complexity to the roles to be honest.
I've no intention of gaining the first hand experience to find out either before you suggest I do.

Lots of businesses will pay inflationary increases at a minimum. In my 20+ years in the private sector, most staff got an increase of some form or other each year.

I don't know much about the LA roles to be honest, but I have see civil service COs dealing with complex accounts, and complex public issues on Revenue or DEASP public counters.

23-04-2019 04:01PM

Augeo wrote: »

simply to keep the monkeys in the zoo.

This says so much more about you than about those you try to denigrate.

23-04-2019 04:04PM

Augeo wrote: »

Well folk who start on €23k rise to €36k after 14 years and then get no more.
I reckon they can perform the role at €23k, that's basically what it warrants, the increments are simply to keep the monkeys in the zoo.

One doesn't need to work as a clerical officer to have a valid view on if they are being overpaid or not. they are €10/hour jobs that many folk get much more to do as they've been there years. It's conceptually simple.

you know little or nothing about the ranges of responsibilities involved. roles vary from place to place and as you've been told responsibilities and learned expertise will increase over time.

very few people in the private sector dont develop within a role they stay in over time without seeing a level of remuneration for that development.

plenty of fair and valid criticisms across the public service (we make them as quick as anyone but at least we're informed) and you're historically a poster able to make reasonable observations on the topic, albeit from a particular ideological bent. admitting you dont know jack about this but continuing to barstool on it anyway isnt very becoming.

23-04-2019 04:17PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

This says so much more about you than about those you try to denigrate.

Not really, I was originally replying to this "Public servants are just better people all round. Harder workers, more contentious, better behaved, more educated, more helpful, the list goes on" ......

23-04-2019 04:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

............
plenty of fair and valid criticisms across the public service (we make them as quick as anyone but at least we're informed) and you're historically a poster able to make reasonable observations on the topic, albeit from a particular ideological bent. admitting you dont know jack about this but continuing to barstool on it anyway isnt very becoming.

Yawn, apologies, there are no goons on €36k doing €10/hour type gigs

23-04-2019 04:21PM

Augeo wrote: »

Not really, I was originally replying to this "Public servants are just better people all round. Harder workers, more contentious, better behaved, more educated, more helpful, the list goes on" ......

You compared a group of workers to monkeys. At least have the decency to own your offensive remark.

23-04-2019 04:23PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You compared a group of workers to monkeys. At least have the decency to own your offensive remark.

Oh I'll own it alright, no problem.
Most COs are doing roles that are €10/hour gigs.

did you pull up whoever wrote this sh1t......... "Public servants are just better people all round. Harder workers, more contentious, better behaved, more educated, more helpful, the list goes on" ...... no, I don't think you did.

Kimbot · 23-04-2019 04:24PM

Augeo wrote: »

Most COs are doing roles that are €10/hour gigs.

Can you provide some sort of evidence to back this up at all or is that just your opinion??

23-04-2019 04:28PM

Kimbot wrote: »

Can you provide some sort of evidence to back this up at all or is that just your opinion??

The jobspec for a CO coupled with the starting salary is indicative that the gig is a role that is €10/hour work.
the countless folk on here who work or have worked as one and who were bored sh1tless doing sweet fnck all is also indicative that it's a €10/hour gig.
Some sort of evedense is rather subjective, the old saying you get what you pay for, €23k/annum starting off and essentially fnck all pension, after 14 years your get €36k for doing the same role. There's an element of the state subsidy in there too, I know general operatives cleaning streets etc who are on a decent wedge doing what is effectively a €10/hour job too.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 23-04-2019 04:30PM

Maybe slightly OT but, while I've no problem with parental leave, I also see many colleagues run ragged trying to help elderly parents, take time off when they're ill, bring them to medical appointments, meet with social workers etc etc etc

Surely 'carers leave' would be fairer?

Public/Private worker gap to grow

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