Saracens vs Munster, Sat 20th April, 3pm

Squatter · 20-04-2019 8:21pm

Buer wrote: »

Munster obviously will be gutted but I don't think too many will be surprised. That's not a criticism of Munster but more a comment on my belief that Saracens are champions in waiting and have been the best side in the tournament to date comfortably.

Munster aren't in the top 2-3 sides in Europe but that's no shame. There are generally only ever a few top level sides who are going to win the tournament. It's Saracens and Leinster at the moment...it was Toulon and Saracens before, Leinster and Clermont, Munster and Toulouse etc. Once in a while the likes of Ulster, Northampton or Saracens (when they first reached the final) slip into the final where they're clearly second best.

Munster are top of that following group though and are well worth a semi final spot on that basis. Lucky draws and big one off games does not get you to the semi final in consecutive years. Incredibly tough defence and the ability to convert possession into scores does though and that's what Munster have. Today, they faced a top quality side and couldn't match them. Despite the score at half time, I think the writing was on the wall at that stage in terms of the territory and actual balance of play. A couple of big signings and they could step clear of the chasing pack and deservely be in the top group. The likes of Leinster are ageing and have lost multiple big names; I think this season is their swansong in that top group.

The worry for Munster is that every team has a window to achieve success before they need to rebuild. Munster have a core group of key players that are all of a very similar age. Earls, Murray, POM, Stander, Kilcoyne, Archer/Ryan....the spine of the Munster team and all of them will be the wrong side of 30 next season. If Munster are going to move to that next level, I think they have about 2 more years to do it before the performance levels of a couple of those start to decline and there aren't replacements in the panel that immediately jump out mostly because it will be near impossible to replace guys of that quality.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. I wouldn't be against Munster winning the Pro14 at all now. They're a good side, have focus on the league and will be hugely motivated to come up with the results....most likely against Leinster and then Glasgow.

If next weekend's results go as expected, my money would be on Ulster to beat them in Thomond in the semi.

thomond2006 · 20-04-2019 8:28pm

Squatter wrote: »

If next weekend's results go as expected, my money would be on Ulster to beat them in Thomond in the semi.

This game cannot happen. Munster, if they win their QF, will travel to Leinster.

durthacht · 20-04-2019 8:29pm

Surprised by all the chat on here about Munster's backs as it seems to me the problem was the forwards were utterly dominated. This seems to have been an unfortunate trend in most of their recent semis.

Kilcoyne did well, with a couple of the others having good moments. But overall I thought Saracens dominated the forward battle.

If a side can't get possession, and can't get attacking ball, then it doesn't really matter who is in the backs.

AbusesToilets · 20-04-2019 8:39pm

Former Former wrote: »

POM is very good but he's surrounded by a lot of players who aren't. Not that they're bad players but they are not European winning quality.

The more I see of Beirne, the more sure I am that he's not test quality.

Stander just looks knackered. Needs a long summer break.

That's a bit of a cop out imo. POM was similarly non existent for Ireland, surrounded by better players. To my mind, he's excellent as a defensive lineout jumper, one of the best in the world. Outside of that, he's pretty ordinary.

Munster need better options in the backrow, players who can be physically dominant and play with the ball in hand. If they were smart, they'd be going all in trying to poach one of Doris/ Deegan/ Penny from Leinster.

joseywhales · 20-04-2019 8:45pm

Gone are the days of Wallace and Leamy, those guys would actually dominate collisions with the likes of vunipola. I don't know where you find players like that, they just have to produce them. All of these semi appearances are a good achievement, to be top four for the guts of a decade and top two before that.

Buer · 20-04-2019 8:52pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Munster need better options in the backrow, players who can be physically dominant and play with the ball in hand. If they were smart, they'd be going all in trying to poach one of Doris/ Deegan/ Penny from Leinster.

Whilst I expect Doris to get there (he's not yet), neither Penny nor Deegan are physically dominant players and I'm not sure either ever will be.

They should be aiming to get someone of a similar ilk to Coetzee or Louw and they need them now. I suspect they'll be looking at the post-RWC exodus to pick up someone. By the time someone like Doris becomes the player I think he will be, POM and Stander will be sitting in the stands.

baas baa · 20-04-2019 8:56pm

Kilcoyne and Stander are Munsters most important ball carriers but I think in some ways they are a symptom of Munster's problems, there was a couple of instances in the 2nd half where Munster had numbers on the short side but once the ball ended up in Kilcoyne or Standers hands that was that, they instinctively looked to run over the opposition player and killed the momentum. The top sides nowadays have forwards who are able to recognise an opportunity and have the hands to execute it, defences are better than they were 10 years ago. It's noticeable in Leinsters case at least, that the forwards they produce now are generally as good as their backs at handling the ball. I don't think that's the case in Munster though it's a tough comparison with the difference in numbers coming through, I think there needs to be a culture change in Munster. Even young Hodnett, who was superb for the u-20s, seems more of an abrasive, head down and scrap for metres type of carrier.

Buer · 20-04-2019 8:58pm

joseywhales wrote: »

Gone are the days of Wallace and Leamy, those guys would actually dominate collisions with the likes of vunipola. I don't know where you find players like that, they just have to produce them. All of these semi appearances are a good achievement, to be top four for the guts of a decade and top two before that.

As good as they were, I'm not sure there's a player that Irish rugby has ever produced that would dominate a collision with Vunipola. Tadhg Furlong possibly at his best.

Vunipola is probably the best No. 8 in world rugby. He has footwork as good as an openside and is 20 stone. Leamy and Wallace would do well to physically dominate him in a collision together.

thomond2006 · 20-04-2019 9:04pm

Buer's long summary posts ease the pain. A unique form of pashun displayed by the written word.

20-04-2019 9:09pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That's a bit of a cop out imo. POM was similarly non existent for Ireland, surrounded by better players. To my mind, he's excellent as a defensive lineout jumper, one of the best in the world. Outside of that, he's pretty ordinary.

Munster need better options in the backrow, players who can be physically dominant and play with the ball in hand. If they were smart, they'd be going all in trying to poach one of Doris/ Deegan/ Penny from Leinster.

So the answer to your issues is to rob your neighbours of players to fill the holes. Should Munster not be drawing down from their own academy or asking why aren’t we producing good enough players.

Leinster are losing and have lost Murphy, O’Brien and probably Leavy from the backrow. What makes you think that any of the three you mention would be allowed leave. By the way that’s not including all the other players moving on as well.

Leinster won’t be of a mind to allow anymore leave to rivals. Especially as has been shown this season that they have had multiple injuries that have required playing academy players or having them in the 23.

Tigerandahalf · 20-04-2019 9:12pm

No surprises with Munster today. They are still stagnant as a side. While they have got to a few semi-finals that has flattered them in many ways.

Creatively they offer very little and the skill levels are poor. Rob Penney came in for 2 years and tried to develop them into a passing side but the players don't have the handling skills to carry out the game plan.

They also lack quality players. Zebo is a loss as Haley is quite average. They really need to move Conway to fb and Sweetnam and Earls on the wings.

I hope they have a few talented players coming through as bringing in the likes of Cloete and Botha - average players - are just holding back Irish prospects.

They really need a big signing or 2.

I know Conor Murray is rated highly by many but for me his tactics slow the game down far too much. Too many box kicks with the pace gone out of the game.

leakyboots · 20-04-2019 9:16pm

Sigh, tough day at the office but not unexpected, we were beaten by the better team. Could have done with Earls and Carberry on the pitch but not sure it'd have made a difference.

Similar to others, I don't think Felix is cutting the mustard. We're scoring buckets of tries but yet we can't say the backs are impressing. He's had long enough and I think it's time to give a proven name a shot. More than happy for him to do an Axel and step sideways and learn, he's young and hungry so he might be up for that.

Complete nonsense about Stander not passing (did ye even watch the 6 Nations) and POM being useless, they weren't at fault today.

Thought our kick chase was poor (did we even challenge in the air after the first quarter?) and we gave away brainless penalties that gifted them points and territory. But they seriously pressured us.

Sometimes you get beaten by the better team, we met the winners today. Leinster or Toulouse won't get near them.

Also, fair play Faugheen, I don't always agree with your posts but BT were shameful today in their narrative. The drunken idiot who went onto the pitch is just that, Billy V didn't help things giving it to the fans mins. Outside of that he had a fine game.

This team will win silverware yet, I wouldn't be so downbeat as others.

Buer · 20-04-2019 9:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What makes you think that any of the three you mention would be allowed leave.

Because Leinster don't get to dictate the lives of their players.

If Munster approach Deegan and tell him they want to put Stander to 6, POM to 7 and make him their starting 8 for European rugby...what do you think his reaction will be?

I'm not sure, personally. The only thing I'd be very confident of is that he'd think long and hard about it.

The fact is that Deegan, Doris and Conan are all specialist No. 8s by trade and something will have to change in the next 2-3 years there whether one of them alters their game completely to play flanker permanently or one of them departs.

Burkie1203 · 20-04-2019 9:18pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I know Conor Murray is rated highly by many but for me his tactics slow the game down far too much. Too many box kicks with the pace gone out of the game.

I think part of that is with Stander for example he tries to stay on his feet and get every last inch. But this allows opponents get defence sorted which enables good linespeed continue received so Murray is then forced to kick

Sarries negated Munster strengths somewhat by keeping the ball on the park and backed themselves to cut out any counter attack and not allow Munster to lineout/maul

leakyboots · 20-04-2019 9:18pm

Also, Murray played well. There's some people on here with a serious hard on no matter what to stick it in him since the Six Nations.

Buer · 20-04-2019 9:20pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Thought our kick chase was poor (did we even challenge in the air after the first quarter?) and we gave away brainless penalties that gifted them points and territory. But they seriously pressured us.

What the hell was the story there? There were a few solid kicks that were certainly contestable and Munster just let Goode catch them comfortably and distribute untouched. It was very unlike Munster and looked like a pre-determined approach?

On the other side, I thought Spencer was sensational and his kicking game was spot on. It was only as good as the chasing that went on behind it though from guys like Strettle and Williams.

Buer · 20-04-2019 9:21pm

leakyboots wrote: »

some people on here with a serious hard on no matter what to stick it in him

Well that escalated.

shootermacg · 20-04-2019 9:24pm

durthacht wrote: »

Surprised by all the chat on here about Munster's backs as it seems to me the problem was the forwards were utterly dominated. This seems to have been an unfortunate trend in most of their recent semis.

I don't think they were dominated at all. I think they did really well. We were limited in attack and to a certain extent fielding. Unless we improve in attack, we'll not win anything, but in saying that..a good play-making 12 might be just what the doctor ordered.

Expecting your play-maker to be at 9 is just too narrow. Sweetnam's kick-chase was also terrible, I'm not sure about him as an option anymore, he seems to have reached his ceiling.

joseywhales · 20-04-2019 9:26pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Sigh, tough day at the office but not unexpected, we were beaten by the better team. Could have done with Earls and Carberry on the pitch but not sure it'd have made a difference.

Similar to others, I don't think Felix is cutting the mustard. We're scoring buckets of tries but yet we can't say the backs are impressing. He's had long enough and I think it's time to give a proven name a shot. More than happy for him to do an Axel and step sideways and learn, he's young and hungry so he might be up for that.

Complete nonsense about Stander not passing (did ye even watch the 6 Nations) and POM being useless, they weren't at fault today.

Thought our kick chase was poor (did we even challenge in the air after the first quarter?) and we gave away brainless penalties that gifted them points and territory. But they seriously pressured us.

Sometimes you get beaten by the better team, we met the winners today. Leinster or Toulouse won't get near them.

Also, fair play Faugheen, I don't always agree with your posts but BT were shameful today in their narrative. The drunken idiot who went onto the pitch is just that, Billy V didn't help things giving it to the fans mins. Outside of that he had a fine game.

This team will win silverware yet, I wouldn't be so downbeat as others.

I still think Toulouse have the pack to take on Saracens(I think Kaino can handle Vunipola for example), I have no idea about Leinster, it depends if all of their returning players somehow magically all hit form at the same time, then we have a chance.

Former Former · 20-04-2019 9:29pm

leakyboots wrote: »

There's some people on here with a serious hard on no matter what to stick it in him

Tigerandahalf · 20-04-2019 9:30pm

Stander is average when you compare him to the top 8s. The guy would run through a wall for you but like many Saffers he is more brute than skill.
He is not the greatest passer of a ball and that is perhaps why he goes into contact so much and as he is smaller it is more difficult for him to offload out of the tackle.

Munster could really do with speed in that backrow.

irishbucsfan · 20-04-2019 9:38pm

Buer wrote: »

What the hell was the story there? There were a few solid kicks that were certainly contestable and Munster just let Goode catch them comfortably and distribute untouched. It was very unlike Munster and looked like a pre-determined approach?

On the other side, I thought Spencer was sensational and his kicking game was spot on. It was only as good as the chasing that went on behind it though from guys like Strettle and Williams.

Munster just completely gave up on the territory battle. Bizarre really.

Spencer was great. Worrying that they have him there when Wigglesworth moves on...

Whiplash85 · 20-04-2019 10:04pm

What a performance from Vunipola today after an eventful week. He destroyed Munster.

20-04-2019 10:13pm

Whiplash85 wrote: »

What a performance from Vunipola today after an eventful week. He destroyed Munster.

The fact that he played so well stoked up the moral outrage level possibly.

leakyboots · 20-04-2019 10:14pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Stander is average when you compare him to the top 8s. The guy would run through a wall for you but like many Saffers he is more brute than skill.
He is not the greatest passer of a ball and that is perhaps why he goes into contact so much and as he is smaller it is more difficult for him to offload out of the tackle.

Munster could really do with speed in that backrow.

He really isn't average. If a Lions team were being picked in the morning he'd be borderline starter. Complete nonsense about not passing too, one of only two forwards to offload today (on a day when virtually noone on the team offloaded). Used as a hinge for Ireland. Top passer in the pack in other games this season. This is just wishful thinking. Top tackler today and same amount of carries as Farrell... who made a whole 6 extra yards with ball in hand). And he's bloody fast in open space too.

CJ isn't the fault we lost today, we met a better team. Our backplay couldn't bail us out when we needed it to either

Clareman · 20-04-2019 10:16pm

Very disappointed with today, we didn't adjust at half time at all and our weaknesses of replacements and backs was exposed again, I fear we're never going to break the semi final glass ceiling.

Burkie1203 · 20-04-2019 10:21pm

leakyboots wrote: »

He really isn't average. If a Lions team were being picked in the morning he'd be borderline starter.

If a Lions 23 got picked today Stander wouldn't be anywhere near it IMO

Vunipola is way ahead of him
Faletau if fit is better

Buer · 20-04-2019 10:25pm

leakyboots wrote: »

He really isn't average. If a Lions team were being picked in the morning he'd be borderline starter.

Whilst I disagree with the criticism he's getting (and he can distribute, he just doesn't whether by orders or his own style), if a Lions squad was picked in the morning, he'd be borderline.

Any Irish back row player would be fortunate to travel and POM would be ahead of Stander.

Shefwedfan · 20-04-2019 10:28pm

leakyboots wrote: »

He really isn't average. If a Lions team were being picked in the morning he'd be borderline starter. Complete nonsense about not passing too, one of only two forwards to offload today (on a day when virtually noone on the team offloaded). Used as a hinge for Ireland. Top passer in the pack in other games this season. This is just wishful thinking. Top tackler today and same amount of carries as Farrell... who made a whole 6 extra yards with ball in hand). And he's bloody fast in open space too.

CJ isn't the fault we lost today, we met a better team. Our backplay couldn't bail us out when we needed it to either

He isn't average but he isn't going to make the Lions team or be borderline....to explain, the Lions normally gets picked based on 6 nations performance and after this season I would suggest very few Ireland players would make the cut

I think he is better at 6.....he is playing 8 to accomodate POM but I think his best position is at 6

Dubinusa · 20-04-2019 10:40pm

Billy V is better than Stander. A lot better.

Saracens vs Munster, Sat 20th April, 3pm

Comments