Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

FrancieBrady · 30-03-2019 10:26AM

Akrasia wrote: »

What do you think democracy means?

Rick and Morty are a comedy Sci Fi cartoon, which sounds off topic, but they have an episode where Rick invents a machine that creates a wish fulfilling slave creature called Mr Meeseeks. Mr Meeseeks will stop at nothing to carry out your one and only wish which can not be cancelled or changed.

The wish goes badly wrong and ends up almost killing the person who wished it, all because it was a poorly thought out choice that was forced to be implemented.

Democracy is about giving people the power to make decisions that affect them. Either through direct democracy, or representatives.one of tge central principles of democracy is accountability. If the representatives go beyond their mandate, the people have the right to hold them to account. Democracy not about giving 'the people' a single choice one time and then blindly following it regardless of the consequences. Over simplifying 'the will of the people' is stupid and dangerous and can lead to demagogues taking control by pretending to speak for 'the people' when they're just seizing power for themselves

The concept of the UK itself and the devolved governments is causing problems here too.
You have one political party, claiming they are acting on the democratic wishes of the whole, while other political parties claim the decisions are going against the democratic wishes of their 'separate electorate'.

recipe for disaster tbh. Which is what came out of the oven.

Professor Moriarty · 30-03-2019 10:45AM

Hurrache wrote: »

You couldn't make it up. His constituency was mostly remain too.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1111912246337245185?s=19

The infiltration of the Tory party by UKIP is a positive development. They'll push the party further to the right while One Nation Tories will leave to form a centre right party. Thus, the likes of Boris and Jacob will be where they always should have been, in a minority party on the fringes of parliament.

woohoo!!! · 30-03-2019 10:55AM

Superb insight into how prepared the EU are and leaves one in no doubt that the EU will stick to their rules of engagement. A long read but well worth it.

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/

force eleven · 30-03-2019 10:59AM

Igotadose wrote: »

So, two wolves & 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner is democracy? Or, a more timely example, the electoral college governs US presidential elections is not democratic because the majority can vote for someone who doesn't become President?

The EU never takes decisions against itself? Seriously? You don't mean Ireland's votes on the Lisbon treaty by any misunderstanding, do you?

Basically, what you're preaching here, is religion. Facts (trillions moving already from the UK, many many examples of business leaving, people leaving) don't matter. It will all be fine. Keep calm and carry on, but do what I want you to do. Millions signing a petition - undemocratic.

Sad thing is none of this is new and is the best the Brexiteers can come up with. Give us something new here, like, I don't know, a tangible benefit from the UK being outside the EU. Specific though - based on a withdrawal agreement, i.e., unicorns don't count. Specify how the UK exited and what the result would be, and by when. Thanks.

Basically what you are saying is every referendum is meaningless. Why bother? The EU has leeched billions from Ireland, for no good reason but to save its undemocratic skin. The UK was damn right to vote out, but it's mistake was the establishment refusing to believe it would happen. Cameron can take the blame for that. Ireland should be able to deal directly with the UK on all matters relating to Brexit, from day one, instead it had to hide behind the apron of Merkel et al, with Varadkar and Coveney rabbiting on about the consequences and how bold the UK people were, putting us in this position. Brexit will be good for Ireland but it's a shame the establishment here ignores the possibilities.

FrancieBrady · 30-03-2019 11:02AM

force eleven wrote: »

Basically what you are saying is every referendum is meaningless. Why bother? The EU has leeched billions from Ireland, for no good reason but to save its undemocratic skin. The UK was damn right to vote out, but it's mistake was the establishment refusing to believe it would happen. Cameron can take the blame for that. Ireland should be able to deal directly with the UK on all matters relating to Brexit, from day one, instead it had to hide behind the apron of Merkel et al, with Varadkar and Coveney rabbiting on about the consequences and how bold the UK people were, putting us in this position. Brexit will be good for Ireland but it's a shame the establishment here ignores the possibilities.

What are the 'possibilities'?

Putting more of our eggs in one basket? That doesn't make any sense from an economic security point of view.

Shelga · 30-03-2019 11:08AM

Hurrache wrote: »

You couldn't make it up. His constituency was mostly remain too.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1111912246337245185?s=19

Perfect snapshot of how traditional Tories are being pushed aside by the extreme right wing in the form of UKIP. Anna Soubry was right when she said the Tories are now being run by the ERG-types.

Hopefully, long term, this leads to badly-needed electoral reform in the UK, but for now I think it’s very sad and worrying. Dominic Grieve has been an MP for Beaconsfield for 22 years, and now he’s being stabbed in the back by this UKIP ingrate.

Wasn’t it Dominic Grieve who was also responsible for parliament having a meaningful vote on the government’s Brexit deal, despite the government opposing the motion? I think this is sometimes incorrectly attributed to Gina Miller.

Brexit is a cancer on the UK.

ancapailldorcha · 30-03-2019 11:12AM

Posts deleted and sanctioned. Constructive posts only please.

Professor Moriarty · 30-03-2019 11:18AM

force eleven wrote: »

Basically what you are saying is every referendum is meaningless. Why bother? The EU has leeched billions from Ireland, for no good reason but to save its undemocratic skin. The UK was damn right to vote out, but it's mistake was the establishment refusing to believe it would happen. Cameron can take the blame for that. Ireland should be able to deal directly with the UK on all matters relating to Brexit, from day one, instead it had to hide behind the apron of Merkel et al, with Varadkar and Coveney rabbiting on about the consequences and how bold the UK people were, putting us in this position. Brexit will be good for Ireland but it's a shame the establishment here ignores the possibilities.

Nope. The EU has been hugely positive for Ireland economically and socially. Brexit will be bad for Ireland economically and socially. Apart from that, you're right.

fash · 30-03-2019 11:23AM

force eleven wrote: »

Basically what you are saying is every referendum is meaningless. Why bother? The EU has leeched billions from Ireland, for no good reason but to save its undemocratic skin. .

"Undemocratic" - it us far more democratic than the primitive "democracy" that the UK has.

As regards the costs of EU membership, it is not even a fraction of the benefits Ireland has achieved - nor compared to the trillions that England and UK have taken from Ireland in actual wealth and opportunity over its 850 year history of oppression.

.

he UK was damn right to vote out, but it's mistake was the establishment refusing to believe it would happen. Cameron can take the blame for that.

Ireland should be able to deal directly with the UK on all matters relating to Brexit, from day one, instead it had to hide behind the apron of Merkel et al, with Varadkar and Coveney rabbiting on about the consequences and how bold the UK people were, putting us in this position. Brexit will be good for Ireland but it's a shame the establishment here ignores the possibilities.

That is just what the UK wanted: to blackmail Ireland, to threaten to starve Ireland into submission and rain economic destruction down on Ireland if it didn't accept a few thousand more dead Irish as a price to pay for Brexit.

I agree that brexit will be good for Ireland in many ways - a no deal forcing the UK out will mean more economic independence for Ireland from the UK, will help bring about the end of the UK and leave Ireland as the main English speaking country in the EU.
From your post, it sounds like you are ignoring those benefits.

I see you haven't answered my post btw.

woohoo!!! · 30-03-2019 11:25AM

force eleven wrote: »

Igotadose wrote: »

So, two wolves & 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner is democracy? Or, a more timely example, the electoral college governs US presidential elections is not democratic because the majority can vote for someone who doesn't become President?

The EU never takes decisions against itself? Seriously? You don't mean Ireland's votes on the Lisbon treaty by any misunderstanding, do you?

Basically, what you're preaching here, is religion. Facts (trillions moving already from the UK, many many examples of business leaving, people leaving) don't matter. It will all be fine. Keep calm and carry on, but do what I want you to do. Millions signing a petition - undemocratic.

Sad thing is none of this is new and is the best the Brexiteers can come up with. Give us something new here, like, I don't know, a tangible benefit from the UK being outside the EU. Specific though - based on a withdrawal agreement, i.e., unicorns don't count. Specify how the UK exited and what the result would be, and by when. Thanks.

Basically what you are saying is every referendum is meaningless. Why bother? The EU has leeched billions from Ireland, for no good reason but to save its undemocratic skin. The UK was damn right to vote out, but it's mistake was the establishment refusing to believe it would happen. Cameron can take the blame for that. Ireland should be able to deal directly with the UK on all matters relating to Brexit, from day one, instead it had to hide behind the apron of Merkel et al, with Varadkar and Coveney rabbiting on about the consequences and how bold the UK people were, putting us in this position. Brexit will be good for Ireland but it's a shame the establishment here ignores the possibilities.

If the UK were leaving Ireland then it would wholly appropriate that there would be bilateral negotiations to try and make that go smoothly.

The UK did not vote to leave Ireland but the EU, so that is where negotiations must be. The vote leave campaign assumed that they could go straight into trade talks, wrongly as it very quickly turned out, and deliberately ignored A50. By being so deliberately vague there never was a definitive Brexit. The Brexit as expressed in no deal exit will see Scotland and NI leaving the union in time and rejoining the EU. So if you mean Brexit will be Good for us by reunification, then I concur.

Roger_007 · 30-03-2019 11:26AM

force eleven wrote: »

Basically what you are saying is every referendum is meaningless. Why bother? The EU has leeched billions from Ireland, for no good reason but to save its undemocratic skin. The UK was damn right to vote out, but it's mistake was the establishment refusing to believe it would happen. Cameron can take the blame for that. Ireland should be able to deal directly with the UK on all matters relating to Brexit, from day one, instead it had to hide behind the apron of Merkel et al, with Varadkar and Coveney rabbiting on about the consequences and how bold the UK people were, putting us in this position. Brexit will be good for Ireland but it's a shame the establishment here ignores the possibilities.

"The EU has leeched billions from Ireland"..............
Really!
Ireland has been a net monetary beneficiary from the EU over the years. Ireland has also benefitted in many other ways. Membership of the EU has dragged us from being a priest-ridden social backwater into being a modern liberal democracy.
And who exactly are "the establishment "?. Would they, perchance, be the people that we freely elect to run the country. If we don't like them we can throw them out. If they don't perform and we don't throw them out, then it's our own fault.
Democracy does not guarantee a well run country. It merely facilitates it, provided the people make intelligent and well-informed decisions at the ballot box. The people we elect are an uncomfortably accurate reflection of society as a whole. If you want to see what Irish people are like, look at the Dail. It's not just part of what we are, it absolutely mirrors what we are.

RobMc59 · 30-03-2019 11:29AM

fash wrote: »

"Undemocratic" - it us far more democratic than the primitive "democracy" that the UK has.

As regards the costs of EU membership, it is not even a fraction of the benefits Ireland has achieved - nor compared to the trillions that England and UK have taken from Ireland in actual wealth and opportunity over its 850 year history of oppression.

.
That is just what the UK wanted: to blackmail Ireland, to threaten to starve Ireland into submission and rain economic destruction down on Ireland if it didn't accept a few thousand more dead Irish as a price to pay for Brexit.

I agree that brexit will be good for Ireland in many ways - a no deal forcing the UK out will mean more economic independence for Ireland from the UK, will help bring about the end of the UK and leave Ireland as the main English speaking country in the EU.
From your post, it sounds like you are ignoring those benefits.

I see you haven't answered my post btw.

I can understand why you would want the best for Ireland but why would you want to see the end of the UK?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 30-03-2019 11:43AM

Infini wrote: »

He could've done far better but even during the Brexit referendum his participation was basically not there. If you want the top job you have to give it your all not sit back and let the place burn down. As for the DUP while you might point them as politicians of principal but they've got cronyism and corruption all over them not to mention incompetence. Hardly principal when they do everything to undermine their union by being utterly braindead in their approach.

There was no way the Labour Party could have been anti Brexit immediately after the vote. And Corbyn isn’t very pro EU, which used to be the default position of the left.

If one is voicing an opinion (piece) that's one thing. "Enemies of the People", "one last chance" and the like of publishing opinions as though they're facts and poisoning the well is another. When the line crosses from divergent view to provocative deceitful bullshít that's not me disagreeing that's calling it as it is. When argument's are made that have no factual basis or the information has been twisted with provocative wording thats no longer a newspaper its a propaganda rag.

I’m not sure how you would regulate that. There is something already called Ipso which is an alliance of newspapers to self regulate. Should the government really regulate for facts? What if in the US the trump government had shut down talk of Russian collusion. (Which turns out not to have been factual).

Their system isn't keeping out extremists because instead they've infiltrated the main parties (in this case the tories) and because the system is basically a duopoly between Labour/Tories with most of the stupity infecting the Tories we now got a paralysed system because the headbanger idiots have far more disproportionate power than they should.

Although Brexit is a crazy idea the fact is that 17.4 million people agree with it. In one version of the term extremism, a view on the extremes of society, then it definitely isn’t extremist. The other definition - an extreme view in itself - might apply but this view can hardly be ignored. We are talking about fptp vs proportional voting here and in fact it was the non proportional nature of Britain’s elections that kept the 17M in their labour or conservative boxes.

ancapailldorcha · 30-03-2019 11:46AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

I can understand why you would want the best for Ireland but why would you want to see the end of the UK?

I don't mean to speak for fash here but I'll give my own 2 cents. I particularly don't mind one way or another if the UK survives. However, two of its four member states voted to remain, one by over 60%. Now, the UK DID vote as one nation on this. But if you care about the integrity of the UK then you need to look at the viewpoint of the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Pushing ahead with Brexit while disregarding half of the constituent member states (though not half of the citizens) of the UK will further damage the ties that hold the UK together. The UK's economic success is probably the main reason that Scottish nationalism never gained serious traction until quite recently while Northern Ireland was conceived with the goal of establishing and maintaining Unionist Protestant hegemony.

All of the complaints that Brexiters made about the EU suddenly become true if you adopt the viewpoint of Edinburgh or Belfast and substitute Brussels for London. They have close to no clout in Parliament save for the current anomaly that is the DUP's supply and confidence agreement with the Tories. Scotland and Wales have devolved governments but Northern Ireland hasn't had one for over 2 years now. It's quite clear that England makes the choices and the other three must simply fall in behind.

No attempt whatsoever was made to reach consensus between the four states be it the fact that Scotland voted to remain partly because of the EU and Northern Ireland over the border. Wales voted to leave but when has anyone asked what the will of the people of Wales was? Is it the same as people complaining about sovereignty? Free movement? Economic deprivation? Will Brexit help Wales?

Nobody asked as far as I can tell.

Anthony Barnett has argued that the UK needs to break up. Ironically, British Euroscepticism is concentrated in England, the country that has virtually no institutions of its own. They've all been subsumed by the UK. All that remains is the Bank of England and English Heritage as far as I can see. I've seen no evidence to support the idea that the English voted to leave to reclaim their own institutions from the UK. Certainly, none of the English people I know have mentioned this and have found it odd when it's been pointed out to them. Anecdotal of course.

As it stands, Brexit will likely end or significantly damage the Union. I can't see how it wouldn't. Nationalists in Northern Ireland will be emboldened in calling for a Border Poll. Likewise for Scotland's Nationalists who will point to Brexit as being both against the will of the Scottish people and against the spirit of the remain vote in the Independence referendum of 2014. The greatest irony is that it's the so-called Unionists who have undermine the Union so much.

MrMusician18 · 30-03-2019 11:48AM

Roger_007 wrote: »

"The EU has leeched billions from Ireland"..............
Really!
Ireland has been a net monetary beneficiary from the EU over the years. Ireland has also benefitted in many other ways. Membership of the EU has dragged us from being a priest-ridden social backwater into being a modern liberal democracy.
And who exactly are "the establishment "?. Would they, perchance, be the people that we freely elect to run the country. If we don't like them we can throw them out. If they don't perform and we don't throw them out, then it's our own fault.
Democracy does not guarantee a well run country. It merely facilitates it, provided the people make intelligent and well-informed decisions at the ballot box. The people we elect are an uncomfortably accurate reflection of society as a whole. If you want to see what Irish people are like, look at the Dail. It's not just part of what we are, it absolutely mirrors what we are.

You could argue that as Ireland agreed to open up it's waters in exchange for access to the European market that this is a cost of membership and the value is the cumulative value of the non Irish catch in Irish waters.

That is very simplistic though and very misleading. It is unfair to count fishing as a cost unless you include the value of access to the single market and European FTAs.

LeinsterDub · 30-03-2019 11:59AM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That is very simplistic though and very misleading. It is unfair to count fishing as a cost unless you include the value of access to the single market and European FTAs.

I love how those whinging about fishing seem to entirely ignore the affect of modernisation which would of happened regardless of the EU. Modern super trawlers can do the work of entire fleets in the 60's

retalivity · 30-03-2019 12:05PM

Hurrache wrote: »

You couldn't make it up. His constituency was mostly remain too.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1111912246337245185?s=19

"John Conway is a pantomime producer, living locally"

He'll fit right in.

Shelga · 30-03-2019 12:08PM

May to try for MV4 before calling a general election:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/29/mps-reject-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-third-time

Even if the WA somehow magically was voted for, on the fourth attempt, how could this ever be accepted politically? It makes an absolute mockery of parliamentary process.

LeinsterDub · 30-03-2019 12:10PM

Shelga wrote: »

May to try for MV4 before calling a general election:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/29/mps-reject-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-third-time

Even if the WA somehow magically was voted for, on the fourth attempt, how could this ever be accepted politically? It makes an absolute mockery of parliamentary process.

Surely Bercow won't let her go again.

Loafing Oaf · 30-03-2019 12:14PM

Shelga wrote: »

May to try for MV4 before calling a general election:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/29/mps-reject-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-third-time

Even if the WA somehow magically was voted for, on the fourth attempt, how could this ever be accepted politically? It makes an absolute mockery of parliamentary process.

they're talking about running it off against the most popular of the indicative vote options. or something...

RobertKK · 30-03-2019 12:16PM

People talk about democracy...

It was a non binding vote from the very start in the referendum.
MPs are not elected with the purpose of damaging their country even if many seem to be think they have a mandate to do that.

There are so many actual people who have lost their minds on the issue of Brexit.
A pure Brexit, the EU made out to be some malignant bogeyman.
This is really just the UK failing to accept responsibility for the mess their country was in before any Brexit and the belief in a fairytale by some that Brexit will awaken some sleeping beauty (a dead empire) and it will all be good.
The thing is a lot of people pushing don’t believe the fairytale they tell, some do but they have convinced so many who want to believe in fairytales that sleeping beauty actually exists.

looksee · 30-03-2019 12:16PM

fash wrote: »

... leave Ireland as the main English speaking country in the EU.

Although with both the UK and the US shooting themselves in the feet we can only hope that English is well enough established to remain the go-to world language, and we don't all need to start learning Chinese.

Headshot · 30-03-2019 12:25PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Surely Bercow won't let her go again.

Bound to be ways around it.

I believe she could call an end to Parliament for this session and some days later reopen and therefor it's a new session and she can do another vote on MV

bob mcbob · 30-03-2019 12:30PM

prinzeugen wrote: »

It is interesting times. I predict that there will be a general election and it will be the death of the Labour party (unless they use voter fraud like last time).

Landslide for the Conservatives or UKIP. The SNP and Labour will be wiped out in Westminster.

And No deal exit. To be replaced by a deal 9 days later.. By the EU begging for something!

The EU is the problem!

The odds for this would be astronomical 1 million to one I would think.
Just think, if your political prediction is correct you could be a multi-millionaire for just a 10 quid stake.

If you really believe this, why not go ahead and place the bet. Then post it here and after it happens we will all be really jealous

As you are a strong unionist, the current odds on Scottish independence at next Indy ref are -

Next Scottish Independence Referendum Result
Against Independence (Fail) - 4/5
For Independence (Pass) - Evens

Inquitus · 30-03-2019 12:39PM

bob mcbob wrote: »

The odds for this would be astronomical 1 million to one I would think.
Just think, if your political prediction is correct you could be a multi-millionaire for just a 10 quid stake.

If you really believe this, why not go ahead and place the bet. Then post it here and after it happens we will all be really jealous

Aye that's delusion at its finest, a far right UKIP represented by BNP types like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon takes power in the UK.

Joe_ Public · 30-03-2019 12:50PM

Shelga wrote: »

May to try for MV4 before calling a general election:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/29/mps-reject-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-third-time

Even if the WA somehow magically was voted for, on the fourth attempt, how could this ever be accepted politically? It makes an absolute mockery of parliamentary process.

It does continues the descent into outright farce at this stage alright. May's deal supporters trying to take succour from the fact that her vote beat a couple of the indicative vote options is a bit sad, considering some of those supporting her deal were doing so out of pure desperation and in spite of the fact they totally hate it. Some of the more popular indicative vote options would almost certainly have done better if there hadn't been a tactical side to the first round of voting and had the pm allowed her deal to be part of that process, the likelihood is that it would have been smashed out of the water along with no deal and a couple of the other fruitcake options.

Evd-Burner · 30-03-2019 01:08PM

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Superb insight into how prepared the EU are and leaves one in no doubt that the EU will stick to their rules of engagement. A long read but well worth it.

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/

That's a brilliant article, well worth the read. It gives a great insight into the strategy of the EU!

Headshot · 30-03-2019 01:12PM

Dominic Grieve's just on sky news, he comes across so well, a bit of a class act.

The Conservatives party are getting really infiltrated by UKIP members and trying to destroy the party from within

Leroy42 · 30-03-2019 01:18PM

And even if TM manages to get the deal past, it will be by a handful of votes and 8t won't solve the divide.

TM resigns, followed by Johnson who sets about tearing up the WA either directly or by making trade deals with the likes of the US that create massive regulatory issues for the EU.

Any deal passed now is almost meaningless.

devnull · 30-03-2019 01:20PM

Being reported now that a fairly substantial number of ministers and senior tory MPs (mostly ERG I'd assume) have written to Theresa May saying that she needs to go for No Deal and also talk about Malthouse.

No deal and Malthouse were the two options with the most noes in last Monday's indicative votes.

Democracy I think not.

Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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