Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Akrasia · 30-03-2019 12:40AM

Farmer wrote: »

Just bumped into this on twitter
Dominic Grieve loses confidence vote at Beaconsfield Conservative Association by 182 to 131 votes; paves way for deselection

Not much sympathy in some of the replies

https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1111767579792683008?s=20

He'll be grand.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 30-03-2019 12:46AM

Strazdas wrote: »

Trying to be as neutral as possible, I thought that demonstration today was ghastly publicity for the Brexit movement. Two Loyalist flute bands in attendance and then the likes of Farage and Kate Hoey giving speeches and Tommy Robinson on the opposite side of the square. It was hard to conceal this was an unpleasant event with a bad atmosphere.

You can’t stop people turning up across the square I suppose.

Most Brexiters aren’t really that thuggish - they are old, rural, often middle class. For that reason any worries about civil breakdown are unfounded. The ballot box is another thing entirely.

30-03-2019 12:50AM

Farmer wrote: »

Just bumped into this on twitter
Dominic Grieve loses confidence vote at Beaconsfield Conservative Association by 182 to 131 votes; paves way for deselection

A few more interesting details from the wiki about that constituency.

EU Referendum
Beaconsfield is estimated to have voted 51% Remain in the 2016 referendum on the UK's membership of the EU.[3]

2010 election
The Conservative incumbent's win in 2010, Dominic Grieve, with 61.1% of the vote, was the second highest share of the vote in the general election after William Hague in Richmond, North Yorkshire.

He might not be doing what the party wants but the voters seem to like him.

Strazdas · 30-03-2019 12:54AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You can’t stop people turning up across the square I suppose.

Most Brexiters aren’t really that thuggish - they are old, rural, often middle class. For that reason any worries about civil breakdown are unfounded. The ballot box is another thing entirely.

I definitely agree that Robinson is not a typical Brexiteer and nor are his thuggish mates.

I thought the demonstration came across badly on TV though and it can't have done anything to win anyone over. Mainly middle aged and older people, all white, Loyalist flute bands, Farage addressing them, 'treachery' and 'betrayal' on everyone's lips......it just seemed an unpleasant event and not something you'd go near.

WhiteMan32 · 30-03-2019 12:54AM

After the third defeat of TM's deal, why is there now all this talk of a fourth Meaningful Vote taking place? See this UK newspaper front page headline from this morning.......

Franz Von Peppercorn · 30-03-2019 12:55AM

Infini wrote: »

One does not simply leave the EU without a plan! Thus they got nothing and like it!

But seriously the likes of Boris, Farage, Mogg's, Hoey and the rest are the biggest collection of waster's, idiots, fool's, lying shítstirrers and failures and fúck ups. They between them have turned the the UK into a sad and laughable entity all the while doing nothing but waste time and people's sanity for their own vainglorious bullshít. None of them are fit for any sort of office same as the whole DUP they're all out for their own pathetic brandead delusional interests with no interest in the common good or the national interest. They're only fit to be ridiculed and made to be examples of how human stupidity is the cancer of this existence. Meanwhile the opposition has a dope of a leader in Jeremy Corbyn who's quite literally 40 year's behind the times and was given literally the EASIEST government to tear apart factually and has spent the entire time enabling a self destructive polity simply by refusing to do his goddamn job because hes an idelogical idiot like the rest of them.

Jeremy has done ok. He’s brought the Labour Party into a second referendum stance which would have been impossible 2 years ago. And to be fair to the DUP they are politicians of principle, even if you don’t like their principles.

Britain is a mess, it needs serious sorting out, toxic rag publications like the telegraph, express and the daily mail either need to be brought to heel by not being allowed to basically publish distorted information and outright lies.

Lies yes. Stuff you disagree with, perhaps not. Funny enough what you feel about with regards to Corbyn is exactly the kind of thing the media manipulates.

Their political system needs to be reformed to be more representative and the likes of the leave campaign should definitely been denied their victory by either annuling or rerunning the referendum for blatent cheating.

They voted (in a binding referendum) against a more proportional system a few years back. If anything was keeping extremists out of UK politics it’s their FPTP system. Be careful what you wish for.

Sturgeon over there is the only leader right now with any real standard's and interest in the welfare of the people she represents (Scotland). Honestly I hope they get their 2nd referendum and use the oppertunity to get the hell out next time because the Tories have shown clearly their interests are not served by them they'll do anything for power no matter who they screw over. As for the DUP I really hope they get their political comeuppance for their stupidity and those farmers and businesses put their money and support into the alliance at least just to make sure they're turfed out. Hang em with their own stupidity I say.

The DUP will get the same vote as always.

S.M.B. · 30-03-2019 12:55AM

I wish he was running in my constituency. I moved a few KM closer to central London this year and I now have the pleasure of knowing Kate Hoey will win regardless of my vote.

Shelga · 30-03-2019 12:57AM

WhiteMan32 wrote: »

After the third defeat of TM's deal, why is there now all this talk of a fourth Meaningful Vote taking place? See this UK newspaper front page headline from this morning.......

That’s the headline from this morning no? Before they held MV3.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 30-03-2019 01:00AM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So if everything had worked out rightly the UK would have left the EU 29 minutes ago.

No, it hasn’t been today for a few weeks. There’s a extension until April if no deal happened today (and until May if a deal was agreed).

Monday is therefore very important.

WhiteMan32 · 30-03-2019 01:01AM

Shelga wrote: »

That’s the headline from this morning no? Before they held MV3.

Yes correct - before MV3, which was defeated later in the day. Therefore, I ask why now is there talk of a MV4 ?

Professor Moriarty · 30-03-2019 01:04AM

WhiteMan32 wrote: »

After the third defeat of TM's deal, why is there now all this talk of a fourth Meaningful Vote taking place? See this UK newspaper front page headline from this morning.......

It's no longer politics as we know it, Jim. The reality of what's going on is lost in a fog of narcissism as the MPs take centre stage. Most of the Tory party don't give a foxtrot about Britain or its people. It's all about Orderrrrr, petty cut and thrust, and pithy speeches as they lap up the limelight. The world looks on aghast but the House of Commons is blissfully unaware. A ship of fools.

Professor Moriarty · 30-03-2019 01:07AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Jeremy has done ok. He’s brought the Labour Party into a second referendum stance which would have been impossible 2 years ago. And to be fair to the DUP they are politicians of principle, even if you don’t like their principles.

Lies yes. Stuff you disagree with, perhaps not. Funny enough what you feel about with regards to Corbyn is exactly the kind of thing the media manipulates.

They voted (in a binding referendum) against a more proportional system a few years back. If anything was keeping extremists out of UK politics it’s their FPTP system. Be careful what you wish for.

The DUP will get the same vote as always.

The DUP are struggling in the polls. They have completely ignored farmers and business in NI. Might change, but the wind is against them.

Mr.Nice Guy · 30-03-2019 01:10AM

Grieve was one of the few Tories I had time for. A politician that put his country before his party and personal prospects. I think history will be kinder on him than on some of the other charlatans in his party.

But he had little chance when you've got deluded views floating around like this:

https://twitter.com/davidmooregb/status/1111780153540206594

I'm tempted to wonder if these folks who are cosplaying as Winston Churchill circa 1940 will feel it was all worth it if/when the UK disintegrates, but of course should it happen they'd never blame themselves but find some other convenient scapegoat.

Professor Moriarty · 30-03-2019 01:27AM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Grieve was one of the few Tories I had time for. A politician that put his country before his party and personal prospects. I think history will be kinder on him than on some of the other charlatans in his party.

But he had little chance when you've got deluded views floating around like this:

https://twitter.com/davidmooregb/status/1111780153540206594

I'm tempted to wonder if these folks who are cosplaying as Winston Churchill circa 1940 will feel it was all worth it if/when the UK disintegrates, but of course should it happen they'd never blame themselves but find some other convenient scapegoat.

Brilliant analogy. Calls to mind a certain Old Etonian wannabe. Has all the attributes except for Churchill's wit and intelligence.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-03-2019 01:29AM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm tempted to wonder if these folks who are cosplaying as Winston Churchill circa 1940 will feel it was all worth it if/when the UK disintegrates, but of course should it happen they'd never blame themselves but find some other convenient scapegoat.

Churchill was all for Europe

Back in the real 1940, immigrants did a lot of the heavy lifting in the Battle of Britain. There's a huge disconnect between reality and perception.

The UK was bankrupted by WWII. The US gave them a loan, but shafted them on the value of sterling adding 30% to the loan a few years later. UK trade with the Commonwealth has diminished over the years as countries got independence and could make their own trade deals. Even with the drop in sterling exports to the Commonwealth haven't gone up.

The UK won't become a bigger trading economy anytime soon. The reduced state of manufacturing industry should have been a clue there. And much of it is foreign owned. A satellite company is the latest to be snapped up because the fall in sterling makes them cheaper for those with dollars or euros.

This one never gets old. BNP proudly displaying a Spitfire belong to a Polish squadron. 1940 wasn't as many portray it.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/03/03/article-0-03BAE3B3000005DC-255_468x351.jpg

briany · 30-03-2019 01:30AM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Grieve was one of the few Tories I had time for. A politician that put his country before his party and personal prospects. I think history will be kinder on him than on some of the other charlatans in his party.

But he had little chance when you've got deluded views floating around like this:

https://twitter.com/davidmooregb/status/1111780153540206594

I'm tempted to wonder if these folks who are cosplaying as Winston Churchill circa 1940 will feel it was all worth it if/when the UK disintegrates, but of course should it happen they'd never blame themselves but find some other convenient scapegoat.

The British have no business comparing aspects of Brexit or the EU to WWII. Barely any of them banging on about it were alive when it was happening. Their experience of it is completely through rose-tinted lenses. Many people died, cities in Britain were flattened, and it left the country in dire financial straits. There should be no appetite to go back to anything comparable, and certainly not completely voluntarily.

Infini · 30-03-2019 02:03AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Jeremy has done ok. He’s brought the Labour Party into a second referendum stance which would have been impossible 2 years ago. And to be fair to the DUP they are politicians of principle, even if you don’t like their principles.

He could've done far better but even during the Brexit referendum his participation was basically not there. If you want the top job you have to give it your all not sit back and let the place burn down. As for the DUP while you might point them as politicians of principal but they've got cronyism and corruption all over them not to mention incompetence. Hardly principal when they do everything to undermine their union by being utterly braindead in their approach.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Lies yes. Stuff you disagree with, perhaps not. Funny enough what you feel about with regards to Corbyn is exactly the kind of thing the media manipulates.

If one is voicing an opinion (piece) that's one thing. "Enemies of the People", "one last chance" and the like of publishing opinions as though they're facts and poisoning the well is another. When the line crosses from divergent view to provocative deceitful bullshít that's not me disagreeing that's calling it as it is. When argument's are made that have no factual basis or the information has been twisted with provocative wording thats no longer a newspaper its a propaganda rag.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

They voted (in a binding referendum) against a more proportional system a few years back. If anything was keeping extremists out of UK politics it’s their FPTP system. Be careful what you wish for.

Their system isn't keeping out extremists because instead they've infiltrated the main parties (in this case the tories) and because the system is basically a duopoly between Labour/Tories with most of the stupity infecting the Tories we now got a paralysed system because the headbanger idiots have far more disproportionate power than they should.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The DUP will get the same vote as always.

That ultimately depends on their financial backing. They've deliberately crossed the farming and buisness communities and have not given a damn about their concerns. "Send em to the chippy". That's their attitude to government. I doubt they'll get the same vote if a concentrated effort is mounted against their toxic carryon expecially with those 2 communities alienated.

Lucy8080 · 30-03-2019 03:23AM

The D.U.P. turned down the golden gift on offer in the negotiations. N.I. could have become a UK/E.U. economic powerhouse.

Their myopic vision saw it as a weakening of the Union. They reverted to type.. "No,No,No...never."

What soft nationalist would vote for a united Ireland when N.I. is having it's own tiger?

The economic lift to places like the Shankill/Falls,Portadown etc...jesus wept!

Now Nigel Dodds has told the world he doesn't mind the E.U. so much!

Before the" Leave Referendum" I was on a tube in London reading the METRO ( a free paper at all underground/overground stations).

It had an outside 4 page advert telling Londoners to vote Leave. The small print showed it was paid for by the D.U.P. ( but Nigel doesn't mind staying).

I think a no deal Brexit has narrowed it's odds on happening today .It has become more possible i.m.o.

"Mainland British politics" is faced with the fiscal nightmare of no deal versus the political nightmare of an unsatisfactory Brexit.

T.I.G. is a new party on the scene.

Farrage is talking up a Brexit party.

UkIP seem to be hinting at Tommy Robinson standing for election.

A lot of Tories and Labour M.P.s are standing in Leave constituencies.Labour have a real problem here.

Interesting times.

30-03-2019 03:48AM

Trillions in assets moving to Belfast. GB totally reliant on NI for financial access to the EU. A booming economy. Strongest union ever.

Fools.

prinzeugen · 30-03-2019 03:54AM

It is interesting times. I predict that there will be a general election and it will be the death of the Labour party (unless they use voter fraud like last time).

Landslide for the Conservatives or UKIP. The SNP and Labour will be wiped out in Westminster.

And No deal exit. To be replaced by a deal 9 days later.. By the EU begging for something!

The EU is the problem!

prinzeugen · 30-03-2019 03:55AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Trillions in assets moving to Belfast. GB totally reliant on NI for financial access to the EU. A booming economy. Strongest union ever.

Fools.

Proof?

Lucy8080 · 30-03-2019 04:03AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

It is interesting times. I predict that there will be a general election and it will be the death of the Labour party (unless they use voter fraud like last time).

Landslide for the Conservatives or UKIP. The SNP and Labour will be wiped out in Westminster.

And No deal exit. To be replaced by a deal 9 days later.. By the EU begging for something!

The EU is the problem!

Some Labour constituencies are vulnerable to well placed right of centre (brexit only stand) candidates.

I'll thank your post and the previous post because I think they are replying to me, ( sometimes I miss posts replying to me, no offence anyone).

30-03-2019 04:04AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Proof?

In what world could I provide proof of something that wasn't allowed to happen?

"He'd have been richer if he'd collected his lottery win."
"Proof?"

Cookie_Monster · 30-03-2019 04:09AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

By the EU begging for something!

why would the EU be begging for a deal?

The UK provides nothing that cannot be sourced elsewhere and doesn't buy enough of any particular thing to actually matter on a continent wide scale

prinzeugen wrote: »

The EU is the problem!

how so?

30-03-2019 04:48AM

Just saw that the withdrawal agreement got more support from MPs than any of the eight options that were voted down.

Possibly a stupid question but is there a process whereby out of many options, the one with the most votes wins, instead of a single motion requiring a majority?

RobertKK · 30-03-2019 05:08AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Just saw that the withdrawal agreement got more support from MPs than any of the eight options that were voted down.

Possibly a stupid question but is there a process whereby out of many options, the one with the most votes wins, instead of a single motion requiring a majority?

Cabinet ministers all abstained on voting for the various options the other day so that would have helped the withdrawal agreement to get more votes.

AllForIt · 30-03-2019 05:47AM

devnull wrote: »

No, they didn't and they don't, and I've explained this earlier.

The argument that leaving and agreeing certain other terms and deals with the EU is not Brexit and therefore democracy is dead is utterly flawed, because the ballot paper didn't ask that kind of question. If they want to ask that question, they should lobby for a referendum doing exactly that.

The document written as a result of the Referendum Act 2015, Free Movement, Customs Union, in fact a whole range of options were marked as possible outcomes if the UK voted to no longer be a member of the European Union. Therefore to go for one of these outcomes would be consistent with the referendum text.

Being a member of the European Union is a black and white question. You either revoke Article 50 and you are a member or anything else is not a member. Trying to suggest otherwise is a deliberate misinterpretation of the referendum text and making a presumption and is anything but democratic.

The referendum text asked a simple question and the responses were simple answers. The referendum tells you about these things, it doesn't tell you any more than that and anything else is presumptions being made by people who have agendas and are twisting things for their own means.

Well this is total nonsense. Do you seriously think the working class ppl of Britain would agree with your interpretation of the Brexit referendum.

You talk like an experienced high powered lawyer.

I followed the Brexit campaign avidly and I was in no doubt whatsoever that leave would win. I was actually surprised that the margin was so small.

The ppl who voted yes, I have no doubt in my mind, wished for a complete and utter disengagement with everything to do with the European Union. Everything. The common agricultural policy etc etc. A start again approach.

If you don't understand this then you seriously haven't been paying attention.

RobMc59 · 30-03-2019 06:15AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just saw that the withdrawal agreement got more support from MPs than any of the eight options that were voted down.

Possibly a stupid question but is there a process whereby out of many options, the one with the most votes wins, instead of a single motion requiring a majority?

The WA was mooted last night as a possible option in tandem with a referendum choice.

Irish Praetorian · 30-03-2019 06:17AM

AllForIt wrote: »

Well this is total nonsense. Do you seriously think the working class ppl of Britain would agree with your interpretation of the Brexit referendum.

You talk like an experienced high powered lawyer.

I followed the Brexit campaign avidly and I was in no doubt whatsoever that leave would win. I was actually surprised that the margin was so small.

The ppl who voted yes, I have no doubt in my mind, wished for a complete and utter disengagement with everything to do with the European Union. Everything. The common agricultural policy etc etc. A start again approach.

If you don't understand this then you seriously haven't been paying attention.

I cant really speak for the working class but Im not particularly convinced by anyone who wants to offer a single explanation as to while 17 odd million people voted for something. People want and do different things and they do so for any number of reasons. The attempt by pundits to try and retcon the leave vote as a lock step desire for a no deal relationship with Europe and the attendant turmoil that entails, just doesnt have any substance to it.

Like you I had the sense that leave would win in 2016, but looking back at it why wouldnt they have? The leave campaign could offer the voters everything from a protest vote, an anti immigrant vote, a vote venting long established anti EU 'sentiment' whilst simultaneously offering a vision of the future where Britain could get whatever it wanted, needing only to ask. Meanwhile the remain vote had to carry the cross of reality, peoples actual real experiences of life and the track record of history. You could make the argument that there was a genuine libertarian reason to vote brexit but im not sure how much of the vote that issue commanded. A simple matchup of fantasy and reality, hardly surprising fantasy won.

AllForIt · 30-03-2019 06:19AM

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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