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Madeleine McCann

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    OwlsZat wrote:
    I only see one hole, that of the name. What else is off?


    Only one? No mention of M's eye defect. Never thought to phone the police even when the child tells her she's abducted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Something Else
    Private detective was a joker, he brought the man who was paying him ejit son along amx got him to do the work,
    As far as i could see he was fleeceing them for there money ,
    What job would you pay thousand for a speicalist to do obly for them to gey uneducated son to do there work ??
    The Kenndys came across as people who lucky or where good at there work and wanted the limelight i the McCann case , they came across as morons to be honest

    I was being somewhat flippant tbh ...

    The McCanns have hired four different firms of private eyes over four years before Op Grange was launched in May 2011 in the UK. I dont think I would employ any of them tbh.

    "Firstly they employed Control Risks Group in May 2007. Allegedly paid for at the expense of an anonymous donor whose identity has never been revealed - the group engaged a private jet and hired a Moroccan tourist guide to accompany them to the mountain village where they believed the missing girl might be. She was not there. This local guide later claimed was to be paid a 'million pounds' The group managed to further alienate the case from the official investigation.

    They hired Spaniards Metodo 3 in October 2007 but sacked them when M3 boss Francisco boasted: “Madeleine will be home by Christmas."

    Next came private investigators Oakley International, an A-team of former British special forces soldiers and US security agents run by Kevin Halligen, from March to September 2008. But they were ditched when Halligen was later exposed as a conman. He is alleged to have fleeced the Madeleine Fund out of £150,000 with bogus invoices and inflated expenses.

    A fourth team helping out after Portuguese police shelved their investigation were Alpha Investigations run by ex-RUC officer David Edgar and former Merseyside detective Arthur Cowley. But they stepped down after nearly three years when the Met Police came on board."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    One of the more inconsistent criticisms of the mccanns is that directed at their use of PIs, and indeed their calling for the involvement of Scotland Yard.

    If they were somehow involved in the disappearance, they would be best advised to leave well enough alone and let this story fade from the limelight. Were they involved, any PI or Scotland Yard involvement (regardless of the terms of reference that applied) would be bad news for them.

    Again on the Occam’s razor principal, their constant agitation for this story not to die is far more consistent with their lack of involvement, than it is with their involvement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,953 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Accident happened, parents hid body
    drkpower wrote: »
    One of the more inconsistent criticisms of the mccanns is that directed at their use of PIs, and indeed their calling for the involvement of Scotland Yard.

    If they were somehow involved in the disappearance, they would be best advised to leave well enough alone and let this story fade from the limelight. Were they involved, any PI or Scotland Yard involvement (regardless of the terms of reference that applied) would be bad news for them.

    Again on the Occam’s razor principal, their constant agitation for this story not to die is far more consistent with their lack of involvement, than it is with their involvement.

    Not really makes them loook innocent , They hire the PI's to soley investigate an aduction amd also its not paid for out of there own money,
    They know there was no forensic eveidence found on them anyway so they can never get done

    There treatment of the children says it all to me, anyome who is pro McCann never seems answers or talk about the fact they let male friemds bath there children and took turns doing it , utterly bizzare thing to do , if a male friend offered to bath any of my kids id have serious questions and issues with them


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,046 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    OwlsZat wrote: »
    The accusations at first look ok to level against the parents until you realise how difficult it would be for them to kill their own daughter and cover it up in the middle of a police and media frenzy.

    Madeline was most likely taken from an open apartment then moved by ferry at first light to Tangire Morocco. (intercepted Arabic message) She was cited multiple times closely by (not the women with the kid wrapped in a blanket on her back). It's also well known that countries neighbouring Morocco have a bustling slave trade.

    The only other credible link is the Belgium child sex ring stuff but there is no concrete evidence to back this up. Surely the risk of her being recognised throughout Europe would be far too great.

    Getting on a ferry isn't plausible. There would be passport checks on the Spanish side


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,130 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    I have a feeling that all the PIs and Scotland Yard and all the rest of it were on the back of them knowing somehow that they were being protected by higher powers in the UK.

    Day one Sky News live from Portugal, day two the media descended. It ain't that difficult to figure out that if it were you or me (heaven forbid), that kind of immediate publicity frenzy would not happen within 12 hours or so.

    Just my opinion anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Without having to read back has anyone yet come up with an explanation as to how the parents killed Madeleine and disposed of her body? If I knew what page it was on I could go and have a read.....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,046 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    gozunda wrote: »
    The thing is. The child disappeared. The dogs were brought in on the advice of one of the UK leading police detectives.

    I do not understand why the parents were so against the use of such methods (used throughout the world) when clearly this had the potential to at least find out if there were indications that something had happened to the child whilst alone in the apartment.

    Surely to God any parent would be more than happy even if as it turned out, the follow up forensic examinations were found not to be conclusive.

    And yet the same parents were willing to pay for some highly controversial hocus pocus guy from South Africa who said he could locate the child alive or dead using a strand of hair in conjunction with a device he had invented himself...

    I just dont know. None of this makes any sense whatsoever ...

    They also hired a PI that would've been exposed as a fraud with a simple Google search


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,953 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Accident happened, parents hid body
    splinter65 wrote: »
    Without having to read back has anyone yet come up with an explanation as to how the parents killed Madeleine and disposed of her body? If I knew what page it was on I could go and have a read.....

    There are no explanation only guesses ,
    If id to hazard a guess ud imagine it was in a not in blunt force way , as they wouldnt have much time or equipment to clean blood ,
    For getting rid of the body bins where picked up every night at 4am and tipped into a land fill so bumoing her in a bin
    would sound the most obvious way ,

    Its horrible to even write that about a poor little girl but it mite infact be a better end than if she was sold offf by human trafficers

    Who knows what happened , all the crazy cases you hear around the world nothing would surprise me ,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Creol1


    Something Else
    drkpower wrote: »
    One of the more inconsistent criticisms of the mccanns is that directed at their use of PIs, and indeed their calling for the involvement of Scotland Yard.

    If they were somehow involved in the disappearance, they would be best advised to leave well enough alone and let this story fade from the limelight. Were they involved, any PI or Scotland Yard involvement (regardless of the terms of reference that applied) would be bad news for them.

    Again on the Occam’s razor principal, their constant agitation for this story not to die is far more consistent with their lack of involvement, than it is with their involvement.

    Ockam's Razor stipulates that entities are not be multiplied beyond necessity. Using Ockam's Razor as our metric, the blame lies squarely with the McCanns because otherwise we are introducing new personalities.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 340 ✭✭Calltocall


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    As of today are there any private investigators/British Police/Portuguese Police still actively investigating the case or have all investigations now ceased?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭micks_address


    gozunda wrote: »
    Private detective was a joker, he brought the man who was paying him ejit son along amx got him to do the work,
    As far as i could see he was fleeceing them for there money ,
    What job would you pay thousand for a speicalist to do obly for them to gey uneducated son to do there work ??
    The Kenndys came across as people who lucky or where good at there work and wanted the limelight i the McCann case , they came across as morons to be honest

    I was being somewhat flippant tbh ...

    The McCanns have hired four different firms of private eyes over four years before Op Grange was launched in May 2011 in the UK. I dont think I would employ any of them tbh.

    "Firstly they employed Control Risks Group in May 2007. Allegedly paid for at the expense of an anonymous donor whose identity has never been revealed - the group engaged a private jet and hired a Moroccan tourist guide to accompany them to the mountain village where they believed the missing girl might be. She was not there. This local guide later claimed was to be paid a 'million pounds' The group managed to further alienate the case from the official investigation.

    They hired Spaniards Metodo 3 in October 2007 but sacked them when M3 boss Francisco boasted: “Madeleine will be home by Christmas."

    Next came private investigators Oakley International, an A-team of former British special forces soldiers and US security agents run by Brit Kevin Halligen, from March to September 2008. But they were ditched when Halligen was later exposed as a conman. He is alleged to have fleeced the Madeleine Fund out of £150,000 with bogus invoices and inflated expenses.

    A fourth team helping out after Portuguese police shelved their investigation were Alpha Investigations run by ex-RUC officer David Edgar and former Merseyside detective Arthur Cowley. But they stepped down after nearly three years when the Met Police came on board."
    I think Halligan was Irish..at least that's what the documentary says


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Something Else
    Calltocall wrote: »
    As of today are there any private investigators/British Police/Portuguese Police still actively investigating the case or have all investigations now ceased?

    Operation Grange staff by police officers is still active in the UK and has recently rquested yet more money making it the longest running and most expensive active police investigation in the seach for a missing child in the UK.

    Afaik they are limited to looking at certain aspects of the case in relation to an abduction scenario. DCI Colin Sutton (ex Scotland Yard) is on record saying he turned the offer of running this operation as he was advised his remit to investigate would be severely restricted...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Something Else
    I think Halligan was Irish..at least that's what the documentary says

    I think you may be correct. The above is an extract. I think he was living in the UK at the time. He died in Jan 2018 afaik.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-42804612


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭micks_address


    gozunda wrote: »
    Calltocall wrote: »
    As of today are there any private investigators/British Police/Portuguese Police still actively investigating the case or have all investigations now ceased?

    Operation Grange staff by police officers is still active in the UK and has recently rewuested yet more money making it the longest running and most expensive active police investigation in the seach for a missing child in the UK.

    Afaik they are limited to looking at certain aspects of the case in relation to an abduction scenario. DCI Colin Sutton (ex Scotland Yard) is on record saying he turned the offer of running this operation as he was advised his remit to investigate would be severely restricted...
    I know the funding may be conditional on not investigating the parents etc but I doubt this would stop any good investigation.. im sure they are looking at the case from every angle..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Only one? No mention of M's eye defect. Never thought to phone the police even when the child tells her she's abducted.

    She did ring the police who in turn told the Portugeese police who then took weeks to follow up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭micks_address


    gozunda wrote: »
    OwlsZat wrote: »
    I only see one hole, that of the name. What else is off?

    Be great if someone could follow up with Anna Stram on the name to rack her brain on the exact exchange. Also to find out if anything was done in terms of reviewing CCTV at the time.

    McCanns private detectives at the time are detailed as following up the sighting. I'm sure thet left no stone unturned ....

    Private detective was a joker, he brought the man who was paying him ejit son along amx got him to do the work,
    As far as i could see he was fleeceing them for there money ,
    What job would you pay thousand for a speicalist to do obly for them to gey uneducated son to do there work ??
    The Kenndys came across as people who lucky or where good at there work and wanted the limelight i the McCann case , they came across as morons to be honest
    I actually think the pi from metodo was actually pretty good. His work resulted in a Paedophile ring being taken down in Barcelona. I'd say the money from the Kennedys was dependent on the son tagging along. They seem to have spent a lot of energy on the Russian malinka who was linked to Robert Murat. He had done some web site works for murat. I guess a theory might be he was involved and she ended up in russia


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    cgcsb wrote: »
    Getting on a ferry isn't plausible. There would be passport checks on the Spanish side

    I agree. I'm leaning more towards the central Europe side since. Particularly after the Madeline look alike was found in Morocco.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭micks_address


    OwlsZat wrote: »
    Only one? No mention of M's eye defect. Never thought to phone the police even when the child tells her she's abducted.

    She did ring the police who in turn told the Portugeese police who then took weeks to follow up.
    I wonder about a 3.5 year olds memory..would she even remember at this stage she was abducted it still alive?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,046 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    tibruit wrote: »
    While I`m not necessarily convinced of the McCanns guilt, in answer to the specific question you`ve posed I will say this. Gerry left the dinner to check on the kids around 9 and took long enough for Kate to remark that he must have stopped to watch the football. We know he bumped into an aquaintance on the street and stopped to chat for a few minutes. In his own testimony he also offered some evidence of delay by saying that he went to the toilet in the apartment and stopped to linger for a while over a sleeping Madeleine and thought how beautiful she was. If Madeleine was actually dead and a plan was already in place to dispose of the body at this time, then all he had to do was place her in his tennis bag and put the bag in one of the large communal green bins. There was one nearby. I cannot see how any of these bins would have been properly checked later and they were collected that night after midnight and taken to landfill. The disposal of the body didn`t require any more good luck for success than that of an abduction. He only needed a few minutes.

    This makes sense and sending the friend to check the scene would have meant him raising the alarm. But he didn't check. They must have been surprised when he came back and said all was ok.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    I know the funding may be conditional on not investigating the parents etc but I doubt this would stop any good investigation.. im sure they are looking at the case from every angle..

    I don't think the funding works like that. They will continue to fund once there continues to be a definite line of enquiry. Which we are led to believe there is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Something Else
    splinter65 wrote: »
    Without having to read back has anyone yet come up with an explanation as to how the parents killed Madeleine and disposed of her body? If I knew what page it was on I could go and have a read.....

    As a scenario? Tbh even the Portuguese police investigation didn't come to the conclusion that parents had killed her tbh. In this thread it is just one of five possibilities listed in the poll. I believe it has some support but afaik theres not a lot of discussion about it imo.

    As to the 'disposal of her body' - there is no evidence one way or the other of how either the child was spirited away alive or dead. I reckon
    If this was known we wouldn't be discussing the story ....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭micks_address


    cgcsb wrote: »
    tibruit wrote: »
    While I`m not necessarily convinced of the McCanns guilt, in answer to the specific question you`ve posed I will say this. Gerry left the dinner to check on the kids around 9 and took long enough for Kate to remark that he must have stopped to watch the football. We know he bumped into an aquaintance on the street and stopped to chat for a few minutes. In his own testimony he also offered some evidence of delay by saying that he went to the toilet in the apartment and stopped to linger for a while over a sleeping Madeleine and thought how beautiful she was. If Madeleine was actually dead and a plan was already in place to dispose of the body at this time, then all he had to do was place her in his tennis bag and put the bag in one of the large communal green bins. There was one nearby. I cannot see how any of these bins would have been properly checked later and they were collected that night after midnight and taken to landfill. The disposal of the body didn`t require any more good luck for success than that of an abduction. He only needed a few minutes.

    This makes sense and sending the friend to check the scene would have meant him raising the alarm. But he didn't check. They must have been surprised when he came back and said all was ok.
    You'd want to be one cool cucumber to find your daughter dead and immediately decide to put her in a bag and dump her in a bin. I can't imagine being that calculated unless something is pre meditated


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    I wonder about a 3.5 year olds memory..would she even remember at this stage she was abducted it still alive?

    I think she'd known recently post abduction that a stranger wasn't her mummy and that she had been on holiday. I can buy in to both those statements.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    You'd want to be one cool cucumber to find your daughter dead and immediately decide to put her in a bag and dump her in a bin. I can't imagine being that calculated unless something is pre meditated

    That's it like. There is repetition about this tennis bag. Did someone not confirm earlier all the luggage that came on holiday returned on holiday?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭micks_address


    gozunda wrote: »
    splinter65 wrote: »
    Without having to read back has anyone yet come up with an explanation as to how the parents killed Madeleine and disposed of her body? If I knew what page it was on I could go and have a read.....

    As a scenario? Tbh even the Portuguese police investigation didn't come to the conclusion that parents had killed her tbh. In this thread it is just one of four possibilities listed in the poll. I believe it has some support but afaik theres not a lot of discussion about it imo.

    As to the 'disposal of her body' - there is no evidence one way or the other of how either the child was spirited away alive or dead. I reckon
    If this was known we wouldn't be discussing the story ....
    Amarals theory (the portoguese lead investigator) is accidental death followed by storage in refrigerator followed by being carried in the boot of the rented renault scenic and then the body disposed of


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭micks_address


    OwlsZat wrote: »
    I wonder about a 3.5 year olds memory..would she even remember at this stage she was abducted it still alive?

    I think she'd known recently post abduction that a stranger wasn't her mummy and that she had been on holiday. I can buy in to both those statements.
    Absolutely agree with that I was more wondering might she'd remember now. That does seem a very plausible siting in Amsterdam, the only inconsistent is her saying her name was Maddy.. instead of Madeline.. that said our sons name is shortened and we nearly always use the short version... He does to I think...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭micks_address


    OwlsZat wrote: »
    You'd want to be one cool cucumber to find your daughter dead and immediately decide to put her in a bag and dump her in a bin. I can't imagine being that calculated unless something is pre meditated

    That's it like. There is repetition about this tennis bag. Did someone not confirm earlier all the luggage that came on holiday returned on holiday?
    I'm not sure re the bag, it could always have been picked up there I guess


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭micks_address


    OwlsZat wrote: »
    You'd want to be one cool cucumber to find your daughter dead and immediately decide to put her in a bag and dump her in a bin. I can't imagine being that calculated unless something is pre meditated

    That's it like. There is repetition about this tennis bag. Did someone not confirm earlier all the luggage that came on holiday returned on holiday?
    I'm not sure re the bag, it could always have been picked up there I guess


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Something Else
    You'd want to be one cool cucumber to find your daughter dead and immediately decide to put her in a bag and dump her in a bin. I can't imagine being that calculated unless something is pre meditated

    If she was killed and whoever killed her it would be true that sometimes desperate situations often provide unlooked for solutions. That or stupid people sometines just get lucky. And no I'm not say the father is in any way stupid btw.


This discussion has been closed.
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