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Mass shooting New Zealand Mosque - MOD NOTE POST #1

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    #962
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    So if a person, say an Iman who lives in Ireland, who had just given a talk was to have his photo taken next to Mustafa Proud ISISmember you would be just peachy about that?

    I’d have no problem with the photo, I wouldn’t be calling for the iman to be shamed or banned from speaking I would however hope the police arrested the man who was a member of an international terrorist organization.


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    #963
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    It’s the wrong way to approach this tragedy, it plays into the idea a lot of the alt right guys have of the whole globalist world being against them. They’ll point to the books being banned, call to prayer being played on Friday and assault weapons being banned as reason for them being treated differently when they “fight back”. We’re giving them all the ammunition they need to justify their beliefs. When the attacks in France were done there so no books banned, no individual philosopher or YouTube figures blamed for legitimizing the sort of people who did this shooting. This is playing right into their hands.

    I think they already have enough ammunition to fuel their fantasies already.

    A book chain decided not to stock a book. Big deal. They will have decided to not stock many many books on many many topics by many many authors.

    It has not been banned.


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    #964
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,440 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    It’s the wrong way to approach this tragedy, it plays into the idea a lot of the alt right guys have of the whole globalist world being against them. They’ll point to the books being banned, call to prayer being played on Friday and assault weapons being banned as reason for them being treated differently when they “fight back”. We’re giving them all the ammunition they need to justify their beliefs. When the attacks in France were done there so no books banned, no individual philosopher or YouTube figures blamed for legitimizing the sort of people who did this shooting. This is playing right into their hands.

    The shooter knew that the establishment/Left would react that way.

    That doesn't make him analytical, it was obvious they would react differently.


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    #965
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    Danzy wrote: »
    The shooter knew that the establishment/Left would react that way.

    That doesn't make him analytical, it was obvious they would react differently.

    He wrote that they would but that he hopes that would angry other like him into action, so far he’s been proven 100% correct.


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    #966
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Cienciano wrote: »
    We know how the photo was taken, the link here is not the photo itself. It's that the sort of stuff the shooter was listening to was JP.


    Just as well no books have been banned here.

    It's scary that jordan peterson has more of a link to terrorism than the quran in the eyes of this book store. Just listening to 'the sort of stuff' that JP talks about is enough to stop stocking his book. But quoting the quran or using it as justification for terrorism is far enough removed to keep it in stock. Just sounds a bit mad.


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    #967
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Didn't she do that on Saturday Night Live??

    And it destroyed her career in the U.S - but as far as I am aware didn't encourage any one to open fire on any Popes...

    Whoops wrong show :o


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    #968
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,712 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    It's scary that jordan peterson has more of a link to terrorism than the quran in the eyes of this book store. Just listening to 'the sort of stuff' that JP talks about is enough to stop stocking his book. But quoting the quran or using it as justification for terrorism is far enough removed to keep it in stock. Just sounds a bit mad.

    How do you know they stock the Quran?

    Which book store is it?


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    #969
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Boggles wrote: »
    How do you know they stock the Quran?

    Which book store is it?

    I assumed

    edit: https://www.whitcoulls.co.nz/product/the-koran-978019953732737934


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    #970
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Boggles wrote: »
    How do you know they stock the Quran?

    Which book store is it?

    Whitcoulls.

    They do stock the Quran - they also stock the Bible which obviously should be banned has it encouraged mass killings through out the centuries as people violently disagreed with the meaning of parts of it.

    AND it fuels Christian extremists such as those Christians in Uganda who wanted to bring a law making homosexuality a capital offence.


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    #971
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Whitcoulls.

    They do stock the Quran - they also stock the Bible which obviously should be banned has it encouraged mass killings through out the centuries as people violently disagreed with the meaning of parts of it.

    AND it fuels Christian extremists such as those Christians in Uganda who wanted to bring a law making homosexuality a capital offence.

    Yes to be credible they will have to remove a lot of books from their shelves.


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    #972
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    Yes to be credible they will have to remove a lot of books from their shelves.

    Or as a private company decide for themselves which books they wish to stock... kinda like how people argue what message cake makers should be allowed to write on the cakes they make.


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    #973
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Or as a private company decide for themselves which books they wish to stock... kinda like how people argue what message cake makers should be allowed to write on the cakes they make.

    tell me where I said they couldn't?


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    #974
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    tell me where I said they couldn't?

    Never said you did.


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    #975
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    you know the way most people on Boards scoff at the idea common in America that there is safety in more people carrying guns?

    And we will continue to do so. Keep American exceptionalism exceptional. Especially on this topic.
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    The President of the Czech Republic two years ago, shortly after the Paris attack, urged those with permits to carry, and for others to arm themselves, as a defense system against terrorist attack. There are a quarter million carry permit holders in the population of ten million.

    I think there are only two "normal democracies" (outside of the US) that give wide latitude to their citizens to bear loaded firearms in public: Czech Republic and Israel. (Assuming you can describe as "normal" a country whose very existence is questioned, to say the least, by a large minority of people living in its jurisdiction, but let's not disappear down that rabbit hole)

    So apart from a paranoid confessional state in a permanent state of military readiness, you have the Czech Republic as the only non American democracy (to the best of my knowledge) that allows people to walk around tooled up with loaded firearms. Even Switzerland, long held up as the poster boy of respectable, restrained, militarily prepared "gun enthusiasts", doesn't permit that.

    Just one! And I believe it has restrictions, the like of which would have many NRA loyalists in the US up in arms if introduced state side.

    I don't know of ANY normal democracy that has an outright ban on its citizens owning firearms. Even Britain permits reasonable gun ownership. In that, you can own a gun for sporting, hunting or vermin-control purposes but there are almost NO circumstances in which you can actually shoot someone with it.

    That's the basic premise of firearm ownership in this country, with which I have no problem. By Irish standards, I am a gun-rights advocate, even though I don't own one; in the US I would be a hard-left freedom-hating progressive who only "politicizes" the issue after the latest instance of gun carnage instead of offering the tried and trusted, but provenly useless "Thoughts and Prayers" to the victims.

    Incidentally, any mods who are uneasy about gun-rights being discussed in this forum, despite the relevance of the NZ prime minister's prompt action on the matter, might like to consider who first raised this matter, albeit tentatively and subtly, in Post number 10.


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    #976
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,440 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Chelsea Clinton is getting it in the neck from the totalitarian Left as well, told she was responsible for Christchurch.

    The finger snapping is very creepy.

    For many of us who are economically on the Left, the decent in to cultist thinking and actions in a large section of the modern Left and progressive movements is frightening.


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    #977
    Cienciano
    Registered Users Posts: 14,238 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    It's scary that jordan peterson has more of a link to terrorism than the quran in the eyes of this book store. Just listening to 'the sort of stuff' that JP talks about is enough to stop stocking his book. But quoting the quran or using it as justification for terrorism is far enough removed to keep it in stock. Just sounds a bit mad.
    I'll tell you what's even more mad. You searching what books a privately owned shop on the other side of the world stock and worrying about their credibility


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    #978
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Cienciano wrote: »
    I'll tell you what's even more mad. You searching what books a privately owned shop on the other side of the world stock and worrying about their credibility

    You don't discuss things? You don't check things relevant to posts? Sometimes even... trivial things?


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    #979
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Danzy wrote: »
    Chelsea Clinton is getting it in the neck from the totalitarian Left as well, told she was responsible for Christchurch.

    The finger snapping is very creepy.

    For many of us who are economically on the Left, the decent in to cultist thinking and actions in a large section of the modern Left and progressive movements is frightening.

    Meh. That's been there since the beginning.
    Spanish Civil War was a masterclass in people trying to out-left each other.


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    #980
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I would observe that California has had a ban on semi-automatic rifles capable of using a detachable magazine since Jan 2000. I moved there in Feb 2000. Have you seen my AK-74, FAL, Steyer AUG, Tavor X95 or SiG 556? Pictured on the shooting forum.

    Again, the problem is people who generally do not understand the mechanics behind the thing they don’t like trying to write technical legislation which doesn’t do what they want...


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    #981
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    Well done on successfully turning a thread about a white nationalist murdering fifty Muslims into an anti-left thread. Quite the accomplishment. Shameful, but still impressive.


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    #982
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,440 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    MrFresh wrote: »
    Well done on successfully turning a thread about a white nationalist murdering fifty Muslims into an anti-left thread. Quite the accomplishment. Shameful, but still impressive.

    He was as left as much as he was right.

    Strongly opposed to the free market, to globalization, believed in the State as the dominant force in business.


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    #983
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Danzy wrote: »
    He was as left as much as he was right.

    Strongly opposed to the free market, to globalization, believed in the State as the dominant force in business.
    Just going on the snippets that have been reported of what he was coming out with(now admittedly I haven't read his "manifesto"), my overriding impression of him and how I would describe him - and this may sound odd - is that he's a troll. Coming from a similar basic start point as any forum/twitter troll(with murder on top of course). The "manifesto" for a start, the 4/8chan stuff, the wildly different and contrasting opinions, deflection, appeals to populism and appeals to different "friendly" groups, name dropping pretty random "influencers" and even dropping the name of the youtube "star" guy just before he went off to murder innocent people. Like it was like some sort of disconnect single player game. His travels and subsequent crime are like some horrific trolling trajectory too and his court appearance with the "nazi" symbolism stuff. If a poster came out with that kinda thing in text here I'd be immediately thinking wind up merchant and troll. I dunno if I'm explaining my thinking on this well though.

    Maybe... OK think of the biggest oddball troll you've encountered in your time online, now imagine that same troll with that extra garnish on top of inhumanity and murderous intent(though I'd bet he reckons he's both humane and not murderous, which backs up that he's neither). I reckon what you'd end up with might this prick.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #984
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,479 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Wibbs wrote: »
    A non semiautomatic rifle type, that can carry 8 rounds of various calibers in their fixed magazines and capable of very accurate rapid fire, not far off a semiautomatic, reloading being the bottleneck there. The legislation doesn't cover them and they're also quite the popular firearm. Revolvers aren't in the mix either.

    So the legislation is not perfect, so what? It's a first step towards trying to actually do something rather than the continued fingers in ears approach of the past. It'll never keep everyone happy but we live in a democracy and the majority want guns further restricted.

    The next step to follow will be individual gun registration and probably ammunition tracking as well, mentioned on the radio this morning that they will take more time to consider the exact implementation of this step 2. There was a further step 3 as well but I missed what that was going to be.


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    #985
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    1. omg, this thread really went south today ...
      Zorya wrote: »
      brain helplessly freezes
    2. ArrBee wrote: »
      interestingly, Australia has made a show of sending "bad New Zealanders" back to NZ in recent years.
      Any reciprocal action by NZ could be based on the same "understanding". smile.png
      ---> since I also asked about this few days/pages ago ...
      mvl wrote: »

    Another point - having in mind that Australia and NZ PMs have had some (recent) escalations related to Australia criminal deportations habits, assume there is almost zero chance NZ would deport this one until he's served his sentence ... anyone heard differently ?
    ... did you hear anything recent on this (is deportation an option, if yes, it would be done at what stage of the sentence ? )


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    #986
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    So the legislation is not perfect, so what? It's a first step towards trying to actually do something rather than the continued fingers in ears approach of the past. It'll never keep everyone happy but we live in a democracy and the majority want guns restricted.
    Democracy is the best system we have so far, but it can often mean a) all the fools are on the same side and b) is all too easily hijacked by events and emotions and ignorance of what laws are being passed and what people think they want. QV Brexit/Trump et al.

    Hell, look at New Zealand's understandable if a tad daft political and legal action over the last week. There's a muppet up in court for sharing the video, who is potentially facing ten years in prison according to their laws, yet when this new gun control act goes through possession of a banned firearm will be subject to a four grand fine or up to three years in prison. It's apparently worse to share a video of the crime than actually possess the type of weapon that might cause another such crime. Eh... wut?

    Secondly just because one does something, doesn't mean that something will have the effect you think. It'll also be interesting to see how many New Zealand gun owners actually hand back their weapons.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #987
    BBFAN
    Registered Users Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭BBFAN


    Zorya wrote: »
    As I've said, I ain't his fan, but anyone with a titter of wit knows what happened in that photo. He gave his lecture, stood in the promotion place or whatever and every 4 or 5 seconds someone steps up for the photo and couple of words. He has said it could be hundreds in an evening. Most likely that is the context of the evidence, your honour.

    BS, you could easily spot that t-shirt in a couple of seconds and refuse to get in the photo. :rolleyes:


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    #988
    GinAndBitter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 746 ✭✭✭GinAndBitter


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Just going on the snippets that have been reported of what he was coming out with(now admittedly I haven't read his "manifesto"), my overriding impression of him and how I would describe him - and this may sound odd - is that he's a troll. Coming from a similar basic start point as any forum/twitter troll(with murder on top of course). The "manifesto" for a start, the 4/8chan stuff, the wildly different and contrasting opinions, deflection, appeals to populism and appeals to different "friendly" groups, name dropping pretty random "influencers" and even dropping the name of the youtube "star" guy just before he went off to murder innocent people. Like it was like some sort of disconnect single player game. His travels and subsequent crime are like some horrific trolling trajectory too and his court appearance with the "nazi" symbolism stuff. If a poster came out with that kinda thing in text here I'd be immediately thinking wind up merchant and troll. I dunno if I'm explaining my thinking on this well though.

    Maybe... OK think of the biggest oddball troll you've encountered in your time online, now imagine that same troll with that extra garnish on top of inhumanity and murderous intent(though I'd bet he reckons he's both humane and not murderous, which backs up that he's neither). I reckon what you'd end up with might this prick.

    You're spot on, I read maybe 5 pages of it. The whole thing is trolling, I'd find some of it funny if it wasn't written by a mass murderer.


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    #989
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,479 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Secondly just because one does something, doesn't mean that something will have the effect you think. It'll also be interesting to see how many New Zealand gun owners actually hand back their weapons.

    It may or it may not, who knows for now. At least something is being tried instead of doing nothing until the mythical perfect solution becomes available.

    Laws can be reversed or amended if needed if they don't work out...


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    #990
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    It may or it may not, who knows for now. At least something is being tried instead of doing nothing until the mythical perfect solution becomes available.

    Laws can be reversed or amended if needed if they don't work out...
    Also as a nation who have created less than perfect laws in recent years as a result of tragedies, it did lead to the initial stages to pretty radical changes for our nation. In a positive sense.


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    #991
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    It may or it may not, who knows for now. At least something is being tried instead of doing nothing until the mythical perfect solution becomes available.
    I have found and history tends to show that when emotions are high it's best for those in charge to step back and consider with objectivity the next step, not just take one. In fairness human nature tends to the latter.
    Laws can be reversed or amended if needed if they don't work out...
    Depends entirely on the law. Most aren't and tend to be dug in like ticks, particularly ones that are set up against future possibilities while trying to prove a negative.
    GinAndBitter wrote:
    You're spot on, I read maybe 5 pages of it. The whole thing is trolling, I'd find some of it funny if it wasn't written by a mass murderer.
    yeah, now like I say I've not read that guff, nor intend to do so, maybe years down the line as a historical curio, but from the reported stuff he struck me as very much of our time, our "west" too. Now Islamist terrorists use the interwebs, but it's for comms and usually painfully "unhip" propaganda vids, whereas this muppet was right "on trend" spouting all the right rhetoric and buzzwords and from not just one "side". I mean he visits Pakistan and Turkey, expresses how wonderful the culture is in the first place and how he respects Islam, then goes off and murders 50 people in an Islamic place of worship. His political stuff is at odds with itself and he's all over social and antisocial media and go pros the whole thing like a unboxing video of mass murder, name checking youtubers. He doesn't try to go out in a blaze of misplaced glory either. Oh no, surrender, now the video is over, like his go pro batteries died. Very fcuking surreal for me.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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