Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

BonnieSituation · 12-03-2019 02:12PM

blanch152 wrote: »

We all know that, but your country calls and you choose whether to answer or not.

It's not their country

ToBeFrank123 · 12-03-2019 02:13PM

PokeHerKing wrote: »

They have the Irish government and the EU fighting their corner. An infinitely better option than a few votes in the HoC.

The Irish government and EU can't vote in the HoC where the decision will ultimately be made if there's a hard border or not.

Hurrache · 12-03-2019 02:15PM

Cox is doing his best to sell the agreement in the HoC.

maynooth_rules · 12-03-2019 02:16PM

PokeHerKing wrote: »

They have the Irish government and the EU fighting their corner. An infinitely better option than a few votes in the HoC.

Sinn Fein have been an utter shambles throughout all of the Brexit negotiations. The utter definition of hurlers in the ditch. The Nationalist community in the North deserve much better

ToBeFrank123 · 12-03-2019 02:16PM

GM228 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1105454734058708992?s=19

Ah well don't think the EU or May could have done any more.

It seems like nothing short of a hard Brexit will satisfy ERG and DUP.

Infini · 12-03-2019 02:16PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The Irish government and EU can't vote in the HoC where the decision will ultimately be made if there's a hard border or not.

Of course. But neither will they find any deals for themselves with the EU or even the US if they impose one. Decisions made against the interest of the common good expecially those made by fools and ideologues with pig ignorance of the realities on the ground will come back to haunt them.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Ah well don't think the EU or May could have done any more.

It seems like nothing short of a hard Brexit will satisfy ERG and DUP.

In fairness the EU has given as much as it is willing to. May landed herself in this position shes where the buck stops. As for the European Troll Group and Dumbàss Unionist Party these 2 reek of incompetence and corruption and hopefully karma will have a way of coming back to haunt them for this whole excercise.

Hurrache · 12-03-2019 02:16PM

David Blevins saying that the DUP won't be supporting it, an official statement is imminent.

farmchoice · 12-03-2019 02:17PM

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Sinn Fein have been an utter shambles throughout all of the Brexit negotiations. The utter definition of hurlers in the ditch. The Nationalist community in the North deserve much better

im no sinn feiner but i could not agree with you there. hey have played it very well, kept off the pitch and let the dup run around shooting at themselves.

ToBeFrank123 · 12-03-2019 02:19PM

Nalani Crashing Scabies wrote: »

time and again people peddle this nonsense

the SF MPs are elected on an abstentionist platform, and were elected as so in 2017.

And this hardline attitude makes a hard border all the more likely.
Sad really but there you go.
As I said it was pie in the sky that they would intervene to help Ireland in its hour of need. They are just going to sit on their hands and take the wages and expenses and do nothing.

I get it.

maynooth_rules · 12-03-2019 02:21PM

farmchoice wrote: »

im no sinn feiner but i could not agree with you there. hey have played it very well, kept off the pitch and let the dup run around shooting at themselves.

They keep bringing up the topic of a border poll which is horrific timing at the moment. They are the first to voice their opinion on any issue regards Brexit, despite refusing to take their seats in Westminster (but not refusing to take expenses from there

) and high tailing it straight to the opposition benches when they could have formed a government here after the last election

ToBeFrank123 · 12-03-2019 02:22PM

farmchoice wrote: »

im no sinn feiner but i could not agree with you there. hey have played it very well, kept off the pitch and let the dup run around shooting at themselves.

And if them playing on the pitch could in some small way prevent a hard border on the island of Ireland?

They've left the pitch entirely to the DUP in the HoC.

Infini · 12-03-2019 02:25PM

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Sinn Fein have been an utter shambles throughout all of the Brexit negotiations. The utter definition of hurlers in the ditch. The Nationalist community in the North deserve much better

In fairness they're playing the long game here. The DUP and friends has through Brexit done more to advocate for a UI than any time in the past. Why get involved when all one needs to do is let the DUP set itself up as the wrecker of the NI economy then slaughter them when a Hard Brexit happens and hammer home the fact they were in Westminster engineering this. Its a sound strategy to be fair expecially should a crash occur as a UI then becomes a legitimate "Out" from all this Brexit fiasco and at the same time shows that Westminster doesnt care bout NI.

ToBeFrank123 · 12-03-2019 02:28PM

If the long game includes a hard border, they've played that really well! Because that what they are going to get.

LeinsterDub · 12-03-2019 02:28PM

Cryptopagan wrote: »

Labour would win a GE handily. It has a vision for Brexit it’s parliamentary party can get behind with relatively little dissent.

That's not what the polls suggest

gooch2k9 · 12-03-2019 02:31PM

JRM asking what the consequences would be if a future parliament just pulled out of the backstop. These people have the cheek to talk about good faith.

Infini · 12-03-2019 02:34PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

If the long game includes a hard border, they've played that really well! Because that what they are going to get.

A Hard Border though is a catalyst for a UI because theres significant opposition to it and a UI negates its existence. Noone wants it but if one is implimented then the strategy turns to removing it.

PokeHerKing · 12-03-2019 02:35PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote:

The Irish government and EU can't vote in the HoC where the decision will ultimately be made if there's a hard border or not.

ToBeFrank123 wrote:

If the long game includes a hard border, they've played that really well! Because that what they are going to get.

Sinn fein campaigned for a no vote for Brexit. They did as much as they could really. I'm not a sinn fein supporter by any stretch.

Taking their seats in HoC would also have had no effect on where we find ourselves today. So your point is moot and could be seen as a snipe at sinn fein for the sake of it.

CelticRambler · 12-03-2019 02:35PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

And if them playing on the pitch could in some small way prevent a hard border on the island of Ireland?

They've left the pitch entirely to the DUP in the HoC.

Ah, give over. The last vote was lost by 200 votes; SF's handful of members wouldn't make any difference. I thought you claimed earlier that you were a master of political intrigue?

BonnieSituation · 12-03-2019 02:36PM

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Sinn Fein have been an utter shambles throughout all of the Brexit negotiations. The utter definition of hurlers in the ditch. The Nationalist community in the North deserve much better

Do they deserve the SDLP?

If they think SF were poor they will surely vote for other parties.

J Mysterio · 12-03-2019 02:38PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

DUP is Rejecting the deal, a report at the BBC says.

This is what happens when you get into bed with the DUP.

The NI government which they should be working in has been shut for two years because they wont even offer Irish language rights to 1/2 the population of Northern Ireland.

Sore way to learn an obvious lesson. Maybe if the UK government paid more attention to a consitutent part of their 'kingdom' they wouldn't be in such a mess, but then this is the UK government who appointed Karen Bradley as NI Secretary, a woman who didnt realise Nationalists and Unionists dont vote for each other and who thinks UK soldiers shooting NI civilians is proper order.

joe40 · 12-03-2019 02:41PM

maynooth_rules wrote: »

They keep bringing up the topic of a border poll which is horrific timing at the moment. They are the first to voice their opinion on any issue regards Brexit, despite refusing to take their seats in Westminster (but not refusing to take expenses from there ) and high tailing it straight to the opposition benches when they could have formed a government here after the last election

Sinn fein have been very clear in their position, their overarching aim is the establishment of a united Ireland.
Whether or not agree with this is up to yourself, but they are were elected in the north on a platform of non attendance at Westminster. That was their manifesto.
Now people think that should be torn up. Things like democratic mandate must mean nothing to some people.
Every single person that voted for a Sinn Fein MP knew they would not attend Westminster.
The way some people talk you would think that was a decision they made on a whim. I don't support Sinn Fein but I totally support their position in this.

Plus that last sentence that they were in a position to form a government... What are you talking about?

CelticRambler · 12-03-2019 02:48PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

The NI government which they should be working in has been shut for two years because they wont even offer Irish language rights to 1/2 the population of Northern Ireland.

Heard in the background a little while ago that the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Assemblies are taking umbridge at the fact that Arlene's been getting favourable treatment (pre-agreement consultations, an effective veto on any decision) even though she's nothing more than the leader of a phantom regional government whereas Scotland and Wales have a functioning government.

Imreoir2 · 12-03-2019 02:52PM

farmchoice wrote: »

im no sinn feiner but i could not agree with you there. hey have played it very well, kept off the pitch and let the dup run around shooting at themselves.

As it turns out, you can only score own goals when you control both sides of the pitch.

SF being in westminster is not really all that important, the only thing the UK can do there is decide to invoke a nuclear option of a no-deal Brexit. If the UK is so inclined, a handfull of SF MP's won't deter them. For everything else, SF representation in the EU parliament and the Dáil is far more influential on the shape of the final deal.

Cryptopagan · 12-03-2019 02:55PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That's not what the polls suggest

The polls said May would romp home to a large majority last time, but her lead collapsed over the course of the campaign. In the context of a GE called specifically to break the Brexit impasse, Labour would be campaigning on the basis of a Brexit policy the vast majority of their candidates will support. The Tories would still be hopelessly divided. That's a recipe for a thumping defeat.

Macy0161 · 12-03-2019 02:56PM

Listened to the lunch time news on Radio 4. Both the political editor of the sun, and Matthew Parris both see it going back to the people, either via a referendum on May's Deal or a General Election. Both also saw a Tory defeat iirc. It followed on from an interview with someone from the 1922 committee saying defeat meant an election was inevitable, essentially (my take) as it can't be countenanced that the House would take control from the executive.

robinph · 12-03-2019 02:57PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Corbyn is a disaster. However, a snap GE right now would essentially be a Brexit referendum. With, probably, the Tories campaigning on a relatively hardish Brexit and Labour campaigning on a relatively softish Brexit/second referendum.

I don't see how it would be a referendum?

You'd be voting for the Withdrawal Agreement on one hand, but only in a few constituencies where there is someone following the Tory party line and in the Mogg following constituencies you'd still be voting for No Deal. The alternative option being another bunch of negotiations to come to the same result, but the negotiations carried out by a bloke with a beard which would be the only significant difference in the end.

Would just be a party that is offering the WA versus a party that will re negotiate the WA and come back in a couple of months with exactly the same thing on different coloured paper.

trellheim · 12-03-2019 02:57PM

wonderful tweet going around "well that was a billion pounds well spent" to the DUP

Cryptopagan · 12-03-2019 02:59PM

robinph wrote: »

I don't see how it would be a referendum?

You'd be voting for the Withdrawal Agreement on one hand, but only in a few constituencies where there is someone following the Tory party line and in the Mogg following constituencies you'd still be voting for No Deal. The alternative option being another bunch of negotiations to come to the same result, but the negotiations carried out by a bloke with a beard which would be the only significant difference in the end.

Would just be a party that is offering the WA versus a party that will re negotiate the WA and come back in a couple of months with exactly the same thing on different coloured paper.

No, Labour's proposals are for a permanent Custom Unions, removing the need for the backstop in its present form.

kalych · 12-03-2019 03:03PM

joe40 wrote: »

Sinn fein have been very clear in their position...

Reads exactly like "Brexit means Brexit"..."Red lines...", etc.

I'm not in the business of bashing SF, but surely their electorate might have a changed their opinion since 2017 after all that's happened. To claim that nothing has changed is as diluted as the DUP position of "no regulatory divergence from the UK" while refusing to align on marriage rights and pro-choice.

SF could have at least done a party members poll on this.

Professor Moriarty · 12-03-2019 03:03PM

robinph wrote: »

I don't see how it would be a referendum?

You'd be voting for the Withdrawal Agreement on one hand, but only in a few constituencies where there is someone following the Tory party line and in the Mogg following constituencies you'd still be voting for No Deal. The alternative option being another bunch of negotiations to come to the same result, but the negotiations carried out by a bloke with a beard which would be the only significant difference in the end.

Would just be a party that is offering the WA versus a party that will re negotiate the WA and come back in a couple of months with exactly the same thing on different coloured paper.

I wouldn't agree. Labour's stated position (and that of the bearded bloke) is to have a Customs Union plus other closer ties. The vast majority of Labour MPs and members (despite the bearded bloke who has now fallen into step) want a Norway style Brexit.

Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

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