WRU move to kill off Ospreys

Former Former · 04-03-2019 9:47pm #1

Here's the story.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/scarlets-ospreys-set-merge-major-15921430

Pretty massive stuff. The Scarlets were supposed to be big enough to survive as a single entity, it's a real shame it's (apparently) come to this.

awec · 04-03-2019 9:50pm

Scarlets and Ospreys, the only regions that have ever actually been anything other than a waste of space in this league.

troyzer · 04-03-2019 9:50pm

Former Former wrote: »

Here's the story.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/scarlets-ospreys-set-merge-major-15921430

Pretty massive stuff. The Scarlets were supposed to be big enough to survive as a single entity, it's a real shame it's (apparently) come to this.

Nobody lives there. That's the issue.

awec · 04-03-2019 10:08pm

These regions won't exist in 5 years.

bilston · 04-03-2019 10:50pm

Scarlet Ospreys...what a terrible name

Former Former · 04-03-2019 11:01pm

Also, a new pro team in Colwyn Bay. They're having a laugh.

awec · 04-03-2019 11:01pm

This really is a last roll of the dice for the WRU. They won’t get another chance at this. Get their regions wrong again and that’ll be that.

If you were a scarlets or ospreys fan you’d be wondering why bother.

awec · 04-03-2019 11:05pm

Former Former wrote: »

Also, a new pro team in Colwyn Bay. They're having a laugh.

IRFU to setup a province on the Aran Islands in solidarity.

Burkie1203 · 04-03-2019 11:08pm

https://twitter.com/_TheRugbyClub/status/1102690054504439808?s=19

Burkie1203 · 04-03-2019 11:13pm

https://twitter.com/jcorrigangolf/status/1102657948059348993?s=19

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/1102679088559472640?s=19

04-03-2019 11:19pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/_TheRugbyClub/status/1102690054504439808?s=19

Jesus. This is going to be a clusterf**k. All a bit grim, fans must be really struggling now. Downsizing to three regions was probably not a bad solution. But another new region...? I'll be interested to see what the rationale behind this turns out to be.

Zzippy · 04-03-2019 11:21pm

awec wrote: »

Scarlets and Ospreys, the only regions that have ever actually been anything other than a waste of space in this league.

Cardiff won the Challenge Cup last season, and have beaten Munster, Connacht and Ulster in the last two seasons. Dragons are indeed a waste of space.

Neil3030 · 04-03-2019 11:22pm

This could actually be a FANTASTIC move and I've been banging this drum for ages!

1. North Wales actually has an identity that the entire region will get behind.
2. You've immediately created an us v them north/south rivalry that will spice up derbies
3. The N Wales team can also claim to be the "real" Welsh team, with the stronger use of the Welsh language up there
4. Ferry to Holyhead and 45minute train ride = plenty of traveling Irish fans!

awec · 04-03-2019 11:26pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

This could actually be a FANTASTIC move and I've been banging this drum for ages!

1. North Wales actually has an identity that the entire region will get behind.
2. You've immediately created an us v them north/south rivalry that will spice up derbies
3. The N Wales team can also claim to be the "real" Welsh team, with the stronger use of the Welsh language up there
4. Ferry to Holyhead and 45minute train ride = plenty of traveling Irish fans!

Not sure if you're serious or not.

Eod100 · 04-03-2019 11:32pm

awec wrote: »

IRFU to setup a province on the Aran Islands in solidarity.

Craggy Island, anyone that gets in Joe's bad books gets sent there..:P

Neil3030 · 04-03-2019 11:34pm

awec wrote: »

Not sure if you're serious or not.

Why?

troyzer · 04-03-2019 11:40pm

I think the idea with the RCG team is that it'll get significant private investment and effectively be off the books of the WRU.

awec · 04-03-2019 11:40pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Why?

Nobody cares about rugby in north wales. With this approach, they are completely screwing over Ospreys fans by pretty much winding up their team. Their most successful region.

Scarlets are also getting screwed because they're going to go through some sort of revamp as part of this.

So what will happen:

1. New team gets setup
2. Initial novelty factor shows promising crowds
3. WRU declare it a success
4. North wales team gets humped pillar to post each week
5. Crowds dwindle
6. North wales team goes bust
7. Arse falls out of it all again.

This north wales team will be like a weaker version of the Dragons (who should coincidentally count themselves fortunate to exist).

awec · 04-03-2019 11:49pm

troyzer wrote: »

I think the idea with the RCG team is that it'll get significant private investment and effectively be off the books of the WRU.

Private backers would have to pump serious money in to get a competitive team together, and somehow manage to generate income to maintain it.

The Welsh regions have struggled to generate interest in the densely populated, rugby-supporting south, but somehow, through some sort of magic, the WRU think they're going to find success in the sparsely populated, football-supporting north.

And to top it off, they think Ospreys fans are just going to go support the Scarlets. Swansea, the second biggest city in Wales, with no pro rugby representation.

Madness ted.

Must be really awkward being the representative of the Dragons when the regions all get together for a wee chat with the WRU.

Neil3030 · 05-03-2019 12:06am

The WRU have struggled to unify a diverse rugby fanbase beneath hastily constructed identities. Irish rugby fans take for granted how important a unifying provincial identity has been in smoothing over the transition from the club to the provincial game, and it still took time. North Wales just need to be as competitive as Kings, Dragons and Zebre to start off, and since they regularly sell out U20s matches in Colwyn Bae (~6k), there is already a fanbase there to build on.

awec · 05-03-2019 12:09am

Neil3030 wrote: »

The WRU have struggled to unify a diverse rugby fanbase beneath hastily constructed identities. Irish rugby fans take for granted how important a unifying provincial identity has been in smoothing over the transition from the club to the provincial game, and it still took time. North Wales just need to be as competitive as Kings, Dragons and Zebre to start off, and since they regularly sell out U20s matches in Colwyn Bae (~6k), there is already a fanbase there to build on.

The Kings, Zebre and the Dragons?

You’re giving us the hard sell, eh?

Eod100 · 05-03-2019 12:10am

Neil3030 wrote: »

The WRU have struggled to unify a diverse rugby fanbase beneath hastily constructed identities. Irish rugby fans take for granted how important a unifying provincial identity has been in smoothing over the transition from the club to the provincial game, and it still took time. North Wales just need to be as competitive as Kings, Dragons and Zebre to start off, and since they regularly sell out U20s matches in Colwyn Bae (~6k), there is already a fanbase there to build on.

Yeah and provinces have advantage of a clearly defined geographical boundary. The tinkering with the Welsh regions seems a mess. Probably a stupid question, but can they not continue on as is?

Neil3030 · 05-03-2019 12:12am

Eod100 wrote: »

Yeah and provinces have advantage of a clearly defined geographical boundary. The tinkering with the Welsh regions seems a mess. Probably a stupid question, but can they not continue on as is?

People from North Wales know where they are from!

Neil3030 · 05-03-2019 12:15am

awec wrote: »

The Kings, Zebre and the Dragons?

You’re giving us the hard sell, eh?

I'm curious - what point do you think I was making there?

Eod100 · 05-03-2019 12:15am

Not sure it's fairly likely but raises an interesting point too.

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/1102698552726294528

awec · 05-03-2019 12:17am

Neil3030 wrote: »

I'm curious - what point do you think I was making there?

That so long as theyre no worse than the worst right now that it’s ok.

It’s a very low bar. Like the bar is pretty much laying on the ground.

The league has no business admitting another team of that standard.

Eod100 · 05-03-2019 12:20am

Neil3030 wrote: »

People from North Wales know where they are from!

Don't doubt it but point is that boundaries not as clearly defined as provinces. Whole region thing gets diluted even more if they're going to make a hybrid of Scarlets and Ospreys. Along with the cutting of squads and upheaval that will cause.

I think from outside looking in and probably ignoring the politics of it, Dragons are very lucky to remain in place. Their Pro14 and European record over the years has been pretty dire. Not sure how they're expected to turn that around.

Neil3030 · 05-03-2019 12:26am

awec wrote: »

That so long as theyre no worse than the worst right now that it’s ok.

It’s a very low bar. Like the bar is pretty much laying on the ground.

The league has no business admitting another team of that standard.

Because your concern was that the North Wales team would be beaten out of the gate each week, and the crowds will die off. The bar being so low actually increases the likelihood that the project can succeed. The NW coastline alone is a region of 500k people that has had no meaningful rugby in the professional era, and as long as the team can be competitive every once in a while, it will be enough to keep the crowd (a crowd who, like I say, fill the stadium for U20s matches).

Neil3030 · 05-03-2019 12:28am

Eod100 wrote: »

Don't doubt it but point is that boundaries not as clearly defined as provinces. Whole region thing gets diluted even more if they're going to make a hybrid of Scarlets and Ospreys. Along with the cutting of squads and upheaval that will cause.

I think from outside looking in and probably ignoring the politics of it, Dragons are very lucky to remain in place. Their Pro14 and European record over the years has been pretty dire. Not sure how they're expected to turn that around.

That actually could work in their favour - think of the Munster fans in counties like Kilkenny or Laois, who felt the team represented them more than a team from Dublin.

errlloyd · 05-03-2019 1:52am

I wonder if without the benefit of the provinces would Ireland have placed their four professional franchises differently. I think Cork at the time probably had a much stronger claim to a professional franchise than Galway.

Former Former · 05-03-2019 3:16am

Neil3030 wrote: »

That actually could work in their favour - think of the Munster fans in counties like Kilkenny or Laois, who felt the team represented them more than a team from Dublin.

I think such people had a Damascene conversion when Leinster started winning things.

Any new region is going to be absolutely brutal. People won't want to turn up to watch a team getting hockeyed every week.

sydthebeat · 05-03-2019 8:14am

30 years ago if anyone had said that neath, Swansea and Llanelli would end up being merged together they would have been laughed at......

MarinersBlues · 05-03-2019 8:39am

errlloyd wrote: »

I wonder if without the benefit of the provinces would Ireland have placed their four professional franchises differently. I think Cork at the time probably had a much stronger claim to a professional franchise than Galway.

Two teams in Leinster more likely.
Dublin and then the rest.

Tigerandahalf · 05-03-2019 8:40am

I wonder how the Ospreys players will be carved up. Will the top tier players move on block to Scarlets and then the lesser lights moved up north to Colwyn Bay.

There had been talk of a 2 + 2 approach where presumably the best players would play with Cardiff and Scarlets/Ospreys and then the other 2 would be development sides. The 2 lesser sides would be Welsh union owned with academy players perhaps pushed there.

All you can hope is that the community get behind that Colwyn Bay side and fill out the stadium. It is meant to be a beautiful region with nice beaches, from looking online. So it might be a nice trip. Population of the town is 30,000.

Cosmo Kramer · 05-03-2019 8:52am

MarinersBlues wrote: »

Two teams in Leinster more likely.
Dublin and then the rest.

I think they would have gone with just three professional teams for cost reasons given the state of Irish rugby in the 90s. The teams would have been based in Belfast for NI, Dublin for the east coast and commuter counties and Limerick for the rest of the country.

Neil3030 · 05-03-2019 8:55am

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I wonder how the Ospreys players will be carved up. Will the top tier players move on block to Scarlets and then the lesser lights moved up north to Colwyn Bay.

There had been talk of a 2 + 2 approach where presumably the best players would play with Cardiff and Scarlets/Ospreys and then the other 2 would be development sides. The 2 lesser sides would be Welsh union owned with academy players perhaps pushed there.

All you can hope is that the community get behind that Colwyn Bay side and fill out the stadium. It is meant to be a beautiful region with nice beaches, from looking online. So it might be a nice trip. Population of the town is 30,000.

Colwyn Bay, Deganwy, Conwy are all great spots. You're a short hop from Snowdonia National Park too if you bring the car over.

The 2+2 idea might explain why Newport wasn't merged with Cardiff.

nice_guy80 · 05-03-2019 8:55am

Leinster has enough clubs, schools and population to have two teams

Former Former · 05-03-2019 9:12am

It's another nail in the coffin for the Pro14 too.

Cosmo Kramer · 05-03-2019 9:13am

The 'Scarlet Ospreys' would have quite a squad to pick from next year if they're allowed to keep their better players in a 2+2 Welsh setup. Leinster-esque in terms of both strength and depth. Presumably some will have to move on though?

Could have a XV something like...

Rob Evans (S)
Ken Owens (S)
Samson Lee (S)
Alun Wyn Jones (O)
Jake Ball (S)
Dan Lydiate (O)
Justin Tipuric (O)
Aaron Shingler (S)
Gareth Davies (S)
Rhys Patchell (S)
George North (O)
Hadleigh Parkes (S)
Jonathan Davies (S)
Steff Evans (S)
Leigh Halfpenny (S)

thomond2006 · 05-03-2019 9:14am

Former Former wrote: »

It's another nail in the coffin for the Pro14 too.

How so?

irishbucsfan · 05-03-2019 9:49am

thomond2006 wrote: »

How so?

You know, the failing pro 14? That the South Africans are desperate to get into?

Cosmo Kramer · 05-03-2019 9:57am

I've never been to South Wales so, to be honest, I've never really looked it up before, but I'm surprised at how near, geographically, all the Welsh pro teams are to each other. Scarlets and Ospreys' stadiums are only 11 miles apart, Cardiff and Dragons' are 15. I always had it in my head that Llanelli was way out in West Wales somewhere, but it's not all like that.

Longer term the way for Welsh rugby to succeed financially might end up being a merger of Dragons and Cardiff into an East Wales team as well as this merger and just have three pro teams that keep all their best players in the principality.

05-03-2019 10:16am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You know, the failing pro 14? That the South Africans are desperate to get into?

No no - he doesn't mean that specific failing pro14 - he means the other failing pro14, you know the one with the most competitive teams in Northern Hemisphere rugby.

troyzer · 05-03-2019 10:31am

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I've never been to South Wales so, to be honest, I've never really looked it up before, but I'm surprised at how near, geographically, all the Welsh pro teams are to each other. Scarlets and Ospreys' stadiums are only 11 miles apart, Cardiff and Dragons' are 15. I always had it in my head that Llanelli was way out in West Wales somewhere, but it's not all like that.

Longer term the way for Welsh rugby to succeed financially might end up being a merger of Dragons and Cardiff into an East Wales team as well as this merger and just have three pro teams that keep all their best players in the principality.

South Wales has something like three quarters of the Welsh population. As well as that, rugby is not particularly popular in North Wales. It makes absolute sense.

Buer · 05-03-2019 10:32am

The truth is somewhere in the middle. The Pro14 isn't a great league. It's not even a good league. But it is also aggressively trying to grow and has brought in more revenue through television and expansion of late and they deserve credit for that. They have shown a willingness to examine their set up and take drastic measures to improve the league. These won't improve it overnight though.

At the moment though, it's a bit of a joke due to how teams treat it but it's hard to blame some of them for doing so. If the Welsh teams get their affairs in order and the South Africans consolidate and gradually improve, it could be a great league. Not exactly small ifs though.

Former Former · 05-03-2019 10:41am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No no - he doesn't mean that specific failing pro14 - he means the other failing pro14, you know the one with the most competitive teams in Northern Hemisphere rugby.

... Two of which are about to cease to exist.

AdamD · 05-03-2019 10:48am

The Pro 14 doesn't need relegation at least, we still get new teams every year :pac:

awec · 05-03-2019 10:57am

Buer wrote: »

The truth is somewhere in the middle. The Pro14 isn't a great league. It's not even a good league. But it is also aggressively trying to grow and has brought in more revenue through television and expansion of late and they deserve credit for that. They have shown a willingness to examine their set up and take drastic measures to improve the league. These won't improve it overnight though.

At the moment though, it's a bit of a joke due to how teams treat it but it's hard to blame some of them for doing so. If the Welsh teams get their affairs in order and the South Africans consolidate and gradually improve, it could be a great league. Not exactly small ifs though.

It is trying to grow, but just how much more of this team changing bollocks can it really endure?

This is probably the worst of the lot. The most successful Welsh side is about to get canned and their other successful team is going to be changed up as a result.

They have a big problem here. Ospreys fans will not go to Llanelli to watch a team playing in red called Scarlets. If they change the team name, or the kit, or where the team plays, then Scarlets fans will not go watch that team.

And the league has absolutely no business letting in any more "development" (read: shite) teams. The product is already weak enough as it is.

Squidgy Black · 05-03-2019 10:58am

Wonder are the WRU going to try and push as many of the excess players over to the Dragons?

You'd imagine the bigger players will be looking east.

thomond2006 · 05-03-2019 11:10am

Let's not be totally miserable.

The Welsh regions are underperforming, steps are being taken to address it. Questionable steps, yet steps nonetheless. There is a population of 687k in North Wales with no professional rugby team, there's a potential market. Colwyn Bay is a 4hr drive from Llanelli but is currently in the Scarlets "region".

The Scots have now got two competing teams, as opposed to previous seasons where only one would be strong.

Benetton have become a playoff contender.

The Pro14 by all accounts will not accept further small unions from South Africa (the Griquas and Pumas) and are only looking for the other current Super Rugby teams to join.

stephen_n · 05-03-2019 11:25am

awec wrote: »

It is trying to grow, but just how much more of this team changing bollocks can it really endure?

This is probably the worst of the lot. The most successful Welsh side is about to get canned and their other successful team is going to be changed up as a result.

They have a big problem here. Ospreys fans will not go to Llanelli to watch a team playing in red called Scarlets. If they change the team name, or the kit, or where the team plays, then Scarlets fans will not go watch that team.

And the league has absolutely no business letting in any more "development" (read: shite) teams. The product is already weak enough as it is.

You forgot to add historically in front of the most successful bit there. Ospreys have been in steady decline for the last few years. They are currently only marginally better than Dragons.

Neath and Swansea were bitter rivals and yet formed the Ospreys. Fans may not like it at first but if the team performs, they will come around quick enough.

WRU move to kill off Ospreys

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