MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

BobbyBobberson · 18-02-2019 9:46am #1

Looks like its happening. What is the impact in all honesty?

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1097405369582866434

lawred2 · 18-02-2019 9:50am

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Looks like its happening. What is the impact in all honesty?

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1097405369582866434

might this be the first time she gets something right?

Peregrinus · 18-02-2019 9:52am

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Looks like its happening. What is the impact in all honesty?

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1097405369582866434

Off-the-cuff reaction? Let's see how many MPs are involved and who they are. But my instinct is that a split at this stage is not going to make it any easier to resolve the UK's crisis and avoid a no-deal Brexit.

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 10:03am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Off-the-cuff reaction? Let's see how many MPs are involved and who they are. But my instinct is that a split at this stage is not going to make it any easier to resolve the UK's crisis and avoid a no-deal Brexit.

The split's been there for some time. This will just be a confirmation of the numbers I think.

When you have nonsense like this, you know it's inevitable.

VinLieger · 18-02-2019 10:04am

Ive been kind of ignoring this labour anti-semitism stuff assuming it was all just red-top nonsense and distraction, is there any substance to it at all?

Capt'n Midnight · 18-02-2019 10:04am

4 :rolleyes:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47274905

At least four backbenchers who disagree with the Labour leadership over its handling of Brexit and anti-Semitism are thought likely to break away.

Enzokk · 18-02-2019 10:10am

VinLieger wrote: »

Ive been kind of ignoring this labour anti-semitism stuff assuming it was all just red-top nonsense and distraction, is there any substance to it at all?

My own impression was much like yours, I thought it was just a storm in a teacup against Labour. However the fact that is just keeps rumbling on and on and on makes me think there is more to it. The best case scenario for Labour is that Corbyn, as the head of the organization, is just unlucky that he liked an anti-semitic cartoon on social media without knowing it. That he has been unknowingly caught in situations where the accusation of anti-semitism against him can be lodged. At worst (and probably most likely), he is an anti-semite and he is allowing it to fester in Labour.

listermint · 18-02-2019 10:32am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

4 :rolleyes:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47274905

begs belief,

There is a call for a centre party in a UK where the majority dont feel they are being represented.

If Farage can pop out parties like Maltesers then why cant a few labour MPS get their act together. Even if it doesn't halt brexit. They would do extremely well given the gulf in representation

MrMusician18 · 18-02-2019 10:33am

VinLieger wrote: »

Ive been kind of ignoring this labour anti-semitism stuff assuming it was all just red-top nonsense and distraction, is there any substance to it at all?

The labour anti semitism was a load of nonsense it was part of a strategy by the labour blairites to lever under Corbyn to get him out.

Any party that's formed from a labour split now will move back into the fold once Corbyn is gone.

VinLieger · 18-02-2019 10:36am

listermint wrote: »

begs belief,

There is a call for a centre party in a UK where the majority dont feel they are being represented.

If Farage can pop out parties like Maltesers then why cant a few labour MPS get their act together. Even if it doesn't halt brexit. They would do extremely well given the gulf in representation

Unfortunately that's not true due to FPTP massively favoring larger more established parties.

A split from either labour or the tories will simply benefit the other

listermint · 18-02-2019 10:49am

VinLieger wrote: »

Unfortunately that's not true due to FPTP massively favoring larger more established parties.

A split from either labour or the tories will simply benefit the other

Then why were the Tories so fearful of UKIP - consistently i might ad ??
I get FPTP but Farage is able to do what he likes

judeboy101 · 18-02-2019 10:51am

listermint wrote: »

Then why were the Tories so fearful of UKIP - consistently i might ad ??
I get FPTP but Farage is able to do what he likes

Marginal seats?

18-02-2019 10:53am

listermint wrote: »

Then why were the Tories so fearful of UKIP - consistently i might ad ??
I get FPTP but Farage is able to do what he likes

Except get elected to HoC...

I assume they were fearful as UKIP were taking away some younger voters. Tory membership is an endangered species, due to the average age of Tory members.

johnnyskeleton · 18-02-2019 10:57am

listermint wrote: »

begs belief,

There is a call for a centre party in a UK where the majority dont feel they are being represented.

The Liberal Democrats always struck me as being a good centre option between Labour and the Conservatives. However, like most junior coalition partners they seem to have blotted their copybook with the last government and so their chances of becoming a significant political force have waned.

Also, as has been said many times in this thread, the First Past the Post system of single MP constituencies makes it very hard for such parties to come to power

listermint · 18-02-2019 10:59am

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The Liberal Democrats always struck me as being a good centre option between Labour and the Conservatives. However, like most junior coalition partners they seem to have blotted their copybook with the last government and so their chances of becoming a significant political force have waned.

Also, as has been said many times in this thread, the First Past the Post system of single MP constituencies makes it very hard for such parties to come to power

They have an extremely poor leadership and blotted their copybook with that. The name is tarnished.

Hurrache · 18-02-2019 11:00am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

4 :rolleyes:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47274905

Others are saying they're not actually leaving, just threatening to leave.

We'll know soon enough, the press conference starts in a few minutes.

edit: Well it is a bunch who resigned.

BobbyBobberson · 18-02-2019 11:04am

listermint wrote: »

They have an extremely poor leadership and blotted their copybook with that. The name is tarnished.

Yup. The students fees and also allowing benefit sanctions in exchange for the plastic bag levy has given them a bad name amongst younger voters.

LuckyLloyd · 18-02-2019 11:07am

From the EU perspective this is irrelevant. It doesn’t affect the realities of where we are and the dilemma of three “impossible” outcomes, one of which needs to be decisively moved towards over the coming couple of weeks:

- No Deal
- May’s Deal
- A50 revocation

I’ll be tuning out the Westminster politico drama bubble around it, because it’s completely irrelevant

johnnyskeleton · 18-02-2019 11:10am

listermint wrote: »

They have an extremely poor leadership and blotted their copybook with that. The name is tarnished.

Back in 2017, when it might have made a difference, a remain voter would have to choose which party/leader best served their interests. Outside of Scotland (which was mostly SNP voting), it would've made a lot of sense to vote for the party most in favour of remaining so that there would be real debate. Ok, Farron was something of a place holder at that stage, but was he any worse than Jeremy Corbyn? The party itself showed leadership in the sense that they actively took a position on Brexit.

I suppose as the largest party that was actually against Brexit (other than SNP) they had an opportunity to allow remain voters to choose an MP who represents their views. But they did not do so. Now there is only limited opposition to Brexit in Westminster, mostly coming from SNP.

Sam Russell · 18-02-2019 11:12am

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Yup. The students fees and also allowing benefit sanctions in exchange for the plastic bag levy has given them a bad name amongst younger voters.

It might be worth looking at the last time a split in the Labour party led to a new party - the Social Democrats.

Some initial success - eventually leading to an amalgamation with the old Liberal party to form the Liberal Democrats. When the Lib-Dems got the opportunity to go into coalition - they did. They took all the blame and got wiped out (almost). Just like the Green Party here suffered from - not strong enough nor wiley enough to shift the blame.

Same problem that all small parties suffer from - FPTP.

sink · 18-02-2019 11:14am

7 Labour MP's resigned. Antisemitism seems to be the main driver rather than Brexit.

devnull · 18-02-2019 11:14am

Jeremy Corbyn's poor leadership has now resulted in the break-up of his party.

Luciana Berger
Gavin Shuker
Chuka Umunna
Ann Coffey
Mike Gapes
Angela Smith
Chris Leslie

Have all tendered their resignations and have formed their own Independent group due to Antisemitism and Brexit by the looks of things, very sad day for British politics in a way but you can hardly blame them.

Akrasia · 18-02-2019 11:16am

A bunch of Labour MPs have resigned the whip, based on opposition to anti semitism. I think the number is 7

They don't seem to care about brexit.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2019 11:16am

listermint wrote: »

They have an extremely poor leadership and blotted their copybook with that. The name is tarnished.

I always find this argument amazing.

LibDems are busted because, as a junior partner in a coalition government they clearly got taken advantage of.

But Blair, and Labour, brought the UK into a war the majority of the UK did not want.

The Tories are now in charge of probably the most dysfunctional government in UK history. Even staunch Brexiteers claim that they are making a pig ears of the whole thing, with the line that Brexit would be easy only for TM etc.

Yet they continue to keep the main support. It really makes no sense so I put the aversion to the LibDems as little more that party loyalty dressed up as some stand up against lies.

Seth Brundle · 18-02-2019 11:16am

devnull wrote: »

Jeremy Corbyn's poor leadership has now resulted in the break-up of his party.

In time, it will be: "Jeremy Corbyn's poor leadership has now contributed to the break-up of his country."

Akrasia · 18-02-2019 11:18am

Ok, they're talking about brexit now. Corbyn's lack of movement towards a people's vote

devnull · 18-02-2019 11:19am

Akrasia wrote: »

A bunch of Labour MPs have resigned the whip, based on opposition to anti semitism. I think the number is 7

They don't seem to care about brexit.

Some of them resigned from Labour due to anti-semitism and some because of Brexit, maybe you should listen to all of the MPs, who will give their reasons on their own, rather than saying the first person to speak has the same reasons as the rest?

Either way Corbyn's poor leadership and 'For me, not for you' rather than the claimed 'For the many, not the few' mantra he's been living recently means they had little choice - they tried to make JC see sense and he wouldn't, if you simply can't address the problem you get out, and that's what they did.

Sam Russell · 18-02-2019 11:20am

Have the seven resigned the whip or resigned from the Labour party entirely?

theguzman · 18-02-2019 11:22am

Goods news to see Labour decline and degrade further. It also strengtens Teresa May's hand and increases even more the almost foregone conclusion of a Hard no-deal brexit.

Hurrache · 18-02-2019 11:23am

Akrasia wrote: »

A bunch of Labour MPs have resigned the whip, based on opposition to anti semitism. I think the number is 7

Not the whip, they've left the party altogether.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2019 11:24am

theguzman wrote: »

Goods news to see Labour decline and degrade further. It also strengtens Teresa May's hand and increases even more the almost foregone conclusion of a Hard no-deal brexit.

It is never good news in a democracy to have a weak opposition.

The Tories ended up out of government for 20 years the last time they were faced with a poor opposition who eventually got its act together.

LuckyLloyd · 18-02-2019 11:24am

theguzman wrote: »

Goods news to see Labour decline and degrade further. It also strengtens Teresa May's hand and increases even more the almost foregone conclusion of a Hard no-deal brexit.

This is actually the most accurate consequence / takeaway from this move you'll get all day!

dfx- · 18-02-2019 11:26am

Leroy42 wrote: »

LibDems are busted because, as a junior partner in a coalition government they clearly got taken advantage of.

It's the same as here where the junior partner is always the one booted out and FF or FG remain dominant. But we are used to coalition government here.

UK party politics can't handle the 50:50 split since 2010..the biggest majority has been 12? It couldn't process the alternative vote system. It is struggling with the fixed parliament act where now resignations have no consequence and votes of no confidence and rejections of budgets and losses on key government legislation don't matter.

Brexit is another narrow divide but isn't split along party political lines and yet that is constantly how it is reported and debated and indeed being run/negotiated by May.

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 11:33am

devnull wrote: »

Jeremy Corbyn's poor leadership has now resulted in the break-up of his party.

Luciana Berger
Gavin Shuker
Chuka Umunna
Ann Coffey
Mike Gapes
Angela Smith
Chris Leslie

Have all tendered their resignations and have formed their own Independent group due to Antisemitism and Brexit by the looks of things, very sad day for British politics in a way but you can hardly blame them.

Surprised that Chuka Umunna isn't in that number. Or Joan Ryan for that matter. Will there be more resignations I wonder.

Enzokk · 18-02-2019 11:34am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The labour anti semitism was a load of nonsense it was part of a strategy by the labour blairites to lever under Corbyn to get him out.

You know what I try to follow, when someone from a minority tells me there is a problem with racism/antisemitism/Islamophobia, because I am not from the minority then I cannot judge whether that is happening or not. This is because I have never been the victim of discrimination like they have so it is very difficult for me to dismiss their views. This discrimination will not be as blatant as Corbyn shouting abuse at Jewish members, but it will be noticeable to those that suffer it.

So when Luciana Berger says the following,

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1097439273744252928

It is imperative to take it seriously, especially as the accusations keeps happening. This is not a sleight on Labour alone. The Islamophobia displayed by the Tories are probably worse and needs to be confronted as well.

LuckyLloyd · 18-02-2019 11:35am

dfx- wrote: »

It's the same as here where the junior partner is always the one booted out and FF or FG remain dominant. But we are used to coalition government here.

UK party politics can't handle the 50:50 split since 2010..the biggest majority has been 12? It couldn't process the alternative vote system. It is struggling with the fixed parliament act where now resignations have no consequence and votes of no confidence and rejections of budgets and losses on key government legislation don't matter.

Brexit is another narrow divide but isn't split along party political lines and yet that is constantly how it is reported and debated and indeed being run/negotiated by May.

It's a constitutional crisis. Chuka and the boys resigning the labour whip is a really minor sidetrack of a quite seminal process.

Enzokk · 18-02-2019 11:37am

theguzman wrote: »

Goods news to see Labour decline and degrade further. It also strengtens Teresa May's hand and increases even more the almost foregone conclusion of a Hard no-deal brexit.

How will it help her get no-deal Brexit? As long as Labour doesn't allow her they will all vote together against that outcome so in policy they will vote with Labour even though they are not part of the party.

prawnsambo wrote: »

Surprised that Chuka Umunna isn't in that number. Or Joan Ryan for that matter. Will there be more resignations I wonder.

Third name down?;)

bilston · 18-02-2019 11:43am

So the net result of today's news is that the UK will have a hard left Labour party with a Tory govt for the forseeable. I hope these ex Labour MPs succeed as I suspect they would probably be pretty close to my politics in n many issues, but they will all almost certainly be voted out at the next election and their political careers will be finished.

What impact will it have in the Lib Dems as well?

Harry Palmr · 18-02-2019 11:44am

So then Brexit. Breaking up businesses, families, nations (in a few years) and political parties.

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 11:47am

The breakaway MPs are referrring to themselves as 'The Independent Group'. They have a website up now.

Our aim is to pursue policies that are evidence-based, not led by ideology, taking a long-term perspective to the challenges of the 21st century in the national interest, rather than locked in the old politics of the 20th century in the party’s interests.

As an Independent Group we aim to recognise the value of healthy debate, show tolerance towards different opinions and seek to reach across outdated divides and build consensus to tackle Britain’s problems.

On Brexit, firmly sitting on the fence:

Labour now pursues policies that would weaken our national security; accepts the narratives of states hostile to our country; has failed to take a lead in addressing the challenge of Brexit and to provide a strong and coherent alternative to the Conservatives’ approach; is passive in circumstances of international humanitarian distress; is hostile to businesses large and small; and threatens to destabilise the British economy in pursuit of ideological objectives.

Harry Palmr · 18-02-2019 11:49am

bilston wrote: »

So the net result of today's news is that the UK will have a hard left Labour party with a Tory govt for the forseeable. I hope these ex Labour MPs succeed as I suspect they would probably be pretty close to my politics in n many issues, but they will all almost certainly be voted out at the next election and their political careers will be finished.

What impact will it have in the Lib Dems as well?

The splinter groups (assuming some Tories also leave over Brexit) really should align themselves with the Lib Dems. It makes sense for NOT LAB/CON to all stand under one umbrella and set out a policy platform based on "not being a bastard"/social and economic moderation. Sounds boring but if the two big parties continue on their current trajectories middle will have appeal by the next scheduled GE (but obviously given the nature of the times there could be a snap one in a month).

Chukka just rejecting any idea of joining the LDs

devnull · 18-02-2019 11:50am

Jeremy Corbyn has given his usual speech, ignoring every elephant that has ever set foot in the room

I am disappointed that these MPs have felt unable to continue to work together for the Labour policies that inspired millions at the last election and saw us increase our vote by the largest share since 1945.

Labour won people over on a programme for the many not the few – redistributing wealth and power, taking vital resources into public ownership, investing in every region and nation, and tackling climate change.

The Conservative government is bungling Brexit, while Labour has set out a unifying and credible alternative plan.

When millions are facing the misery of Universal Credit, rising crime, homelessness and poverty, now more than ever is the time to bring people together to build a better future for us all.

This is why the members have left - the same old rhetoric comes out and the issues which those who have left are swept under the carpet like they don't even exist. It's laughable.

CelticRambler · 18-02-2019 11:57am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Chuka and the boys resigning the labour whip is a really minor sidetrack of a quite seminal process.

They've left the party entirely and have declared themselves independents as of now.

theguzman wrote: »

Goods news to see Labour decline and degrade further. It also strengtens Teresa May's hand and increases even more the almost foregone conclusion of a Hard no-deal brexit.

Regarding a No-deal Brexit, probably yes, but by not trying to set themselves up as a new party (straight away) this group of seven may well encourage a number of Tories to follow the same path. Much easier for a discontent Tory to move to a point of independence/neutrality and stand beside one of the lads/lasses from the "other side" than to cross the aisle completely.

The numbers don't match yet, but this is very close to the Guardian mapping of how the traditional two-party system in the UK (England) has already split into four + independents.

MrMusician18 · 18-02-2019 11:58am

Enzokk wrote: »

You know what I try to follow, when someone from a minority tells me there is a problem with racism/antisemitism/Islamophobia, because I am not from the minority then I cannot judge whether that is happening or not. This is because I have never been the victim of discrimination like they have so it is very difficult for me to dismiss their views. This discrimination will not be as blatant as Corbyn shouting abuse at Jewish members, but it will be noticeable to those that suffer it.

So when Luciana Berger says the following,

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1097439273744252928

It is imperative to take it seriously, especially as the accusations keeps happening. This is not a sleight on Labour alone. The Islamophobia displayed by the Tories are probably worse and needs to be confronted as well.

If the organization is institutionally anti-Semitic, you could question, reasonably, why she was a member at all. It didn't become institutionally anti semetic overnight nor with the election of Corbyn.

They've tried everything to get rid of him and it's just this is the bit of mud they've thrown that's stuck a bit.

With Corbyn gone and replaced by a more moderate they will rejoin. By leaving however it's less likely labour will shift back and it's more likely these will be out if there is an election this year.

ambro25 · 18-02-2019 12:02pm

Akrasia wrote: »

A bunch of Labour MPs have resigned the whip, based on opposition to anti semitism. I think the number is 7

They don't seem to care about brexit.

Angela Smith very much does, AFAIK.

Locally at least (met her a few times at events in/around Sheffield in 2016 and 2017 before I Brexoded), she was an outspoken critic of the first hour, and I'm hearing that she still is. And that is, notwithstanding her constituency's comfortable pro-Brexit vote, pre-GE2017, which nevertheless saw her returned to the HoC.

I haven't been following this announced Labour splinter, but I'm wholly unsurprised at seeing her name amongst those 7 MPs. She's Labour's version of Soubry.

Akrasia · 18-02-2019 12:03pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

The breakaway MPs are referrring to themselves as 'The Independent Group'. They have a website up now.

On Brexit, firmly sitting on the fence:

The timing of this is absolutely insane. We get it that there might be an anti semitic element in Labour, even including Corbyn himself, but we're a month away from the most important event in UK politics in 2 generations and to break away from the main opposition party and not even take a strong stance on what they want to happen regarding Brexit is gobsmacking

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 12:07pm

Akrasia wrote: »

The timing of this is absolutely insane. We get it that there might be an anti semitic element in Labour, even including Corbyn himself, but we're a month away from the most important event in UK politics in 2 generations and to break away from the main opposition party and not even take a strong stance on what they want to happen regarding Brexit is gobsmacking

Not on their website (which seems to be over-loaded now), but it seems that they do have a policy on brexit:

Umunna says they whole-heartedly support the People’s Vote campaign. He says it’s “been like getting blood from a stone getting the Labour party to do the right thing by our constituents on this issue”.

EdgeCase · 18-02-2019 12:12pm

Their website is down. You'd think someone could give them a hand with something with adequate capacity.

Mezcita · 18-02-2019 12:20pm

Response from Young Labour:

https://twitter.com/YoungLabourUK/status/1097439224310231042?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1097439224310231042&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2Flive%2F2019%2Ffeb%2F18%2Fseveral-labour-mps-set-to-quit-the-party-politics-live

Bizarre times.

VinLieger · 18-02-2019 12:22pm

Mezcita wrote: »

Response from Young Labour:

https://twitter.com/YoungLabourUK/status/1097439224310231042?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1097439224310231042&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2Flive%2F2019%2Ffeb%2F18%2Fseveral-labour-mps-set-to-quit-the-party-politics-live

Bizarre times.

Tone deaf doesnt even describe it

ancapailldorcha · 18-02-2019 12:23pm

Mezcita wrote: »

Response from Young Labour:

https://twitter.com/YoungLabourUK/status/1097439224310231042?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1097439224310231042&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2Flive%2F2019%2Ffeb%2F18%2Fseveral-labour-mps-set-to-quit-the-party-politics-live

Bizarre times.

That sort of image could be incredibly damaging for the party. Rhetoric like "cowards" and "traitors" does not belong in a respectable party of government.

MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

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