Incident at Roscommon hotel (asylum seekers)

Boggles · 15-02-2019 3:06pm

Wibbs wrote: »

How do you propose to tell the difference?

The difference in what?

You posed a simplistic hypothetical.

I answered it.

I can't make assumptions on your hypothetical, you do know that right?

By all means flesh out your hypothetical.

But I'm still failing to see what specific tangible problem you have with prosecuting hate crime.

dav3 · 15-02-2019 3:06pm

You should listen to your friend above wibbs. Just put every person you don't agree with on ignore leaving you to create a safe space for yourselves while pushing your political agenda.
Meanwhile the rest of the grown-ups can get on with discussing the arson and attempted murder attacks and how it can be prevented in the future.

Boggles · 15-02-2019 3:09pm

Kivaro wrote: »

And for those of us who have him on ignore,

I imagine the only person you don't have on ignore is Wibbs.

Sorry Wibbs, could you quote that so he can read it.

:cool::P:confused::pac:;):p:):rolleyes::o:(:eek:

Wibbs · 15-02-2019 3:10pm

Chinasea wrote: »

Hintaronney:, look up "Irish stero types" you know, drunken, fighting, child molesters, Irish Republican Army" begarrah, begarrah.

Which is again not the point in play. The point in play again is: Do you deny multicultural societies in Europe have complex social issues around and because of multiculturalism? Simple question and no Irish begorrahs involved, or any other stereotype for that matter. "Race" doesn't come into it much either. Where and when it does is as an obvious difference that stands out, so makes for an easier target. For a start people from places like Syria and other parts of the Middle East are Caucasians. The palest Europeans out there are mostly descended from Middle Eastern farmers who spread through Europe in the Mesolithic bringing agriculture with them. I'm the same "race" as a Syrian. If you're European in origin so are you.

Conversation (and that is a stretch) is being had, due to hysterical, RACIST, bigoted, hyperbull**** running rampant like, like, like.... fire.

Please point out examples where I have been racist and bigoted, or retract that false accusation. Otherwise the only person I can see here who is being hysterical is you and being incredibly dishonest in your accusations with it. Not a shock mind you, when arguments fail, resort to insults and insinuations as a tactic in the vain hope the paucity of said arguments don't come under more scrutiny and show them for the simplistic responses to complex social issues that they are.

Wibbs · 15-02-2019 3:23pm

dav3 wrote: »

You should listen to your friend above wibbs. Just put every person you don't agree with on ignore leaving you to create a safe space for yourselves while pushing your political agenda.
Meanwhile the rest of the grown-ups can get on with discussing the arson and attempted murder attacks and how it can be prevented in the future.

Apparently the "grown ups" preventative solution is "fight hate" and "stamp it out". Maybe you need more grown ups to help with the harder questions and answers.

In any event I've never put anyone on ignore. Nor do I go running to teacher when someone disagrees with me. Nor do I call for echo chambers, indeed on a consistently regular basis I speak out against them and the increasing number of them.

Me. Earlier in this thread wrote:

Open dialogue works, but to have open dialogue you have to have two parties willing to talk and listen to opinions and arguments they don't like. In this increasingly echo chamber and divided world good luck with that. We see this most starkly in the online world. Open forums of debate are shrinking, replaced by down votes and exclusion of anything that doesn't agree with the local party line. And this is evident across all politics and philosophies.

You'd be only too happy to have a load of people who disagreed, even questioned you excluded from the thread. As for "political agendas" almost your entire posting history on this website and across a couple of previous accounts has been a "political agenda". You post and comment on little else.

dav3 · 15-02-2019 3:51pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Apparently the "grown ups" preventative solution is "fight hate" and "stamp it out". Maybe you need more grown ups to help with the harder questions and answers.

In any event I've never put anyone on ignore. Nor do I go running to teacher when someone disagrees with me. Nor do I call for echo chambers, indeed on a consistently regular basis I speak out against them and the increasing number of them.

You'd be only too happy to have a load of people who disagreed, even questioned you excluded from the thread. As for "political agendas" almost your entire posting history on this website and across a couple of previous accounts has been a "political agenda". You post and comment on little else.

Is this post directed at me? You've clearly gone too far down the rabbit hole if this is the level you're at now. There has been quite a lot of phycological projection coming from you and your friends over the last few pages.

Are you going to continue to hijack these threads posting the same points ad nauseam?

The only debate to be had is that a person or persons decided they were going to burn down a building with people inside it for racist reasons. The only statistic needed is that it was 1 building. 1 building too many. That's it.

Zorya · 15-02-2019 4:27pm

I got carded for far less personally directed abuse than is going on at the moment and has been going on in this thread. It is frustrating when the rules of engagement are arbitrary.

Why is it that people who have a centrist or cautious opinion regarding economic migrants - the term right wing is stupid, cliched and meaningless - are allowed to be called anything here?

4068ac1elhodqr · 15-02-2019 4:32pm

Clearly an operation by some posters to derial the thread.

Here's a simple question:
Did this hotel or whatever it was require/get planning permission to become a hostel/DPcentre or whatever it has become now?

I know of planning permission being rejected for actual luxury hotels (creating jobs, tourism),
over on the other side of the Island - that got planning rejected due to 'traffic concerrns' from locals.

Boggles · 15-02-2019 5:32pm

Kaysen Thoughtless Billiards wrote: »

Clearly an operation by some posters to derial the thread.

The Thread is about a racist scumbag who attempted to burn down a hotel with people inside it.

Have you any thoughts on it?

Kaysen Thoughtless Billiards wrote: »

Here's a simple question:
Did this hotel or whatever it was require/get planning permission to become a hostel/DPcentre or whatever it has become now?

AFAIK and don't take it as gospel, Alan Kelly introduced legislation that didn't require planning permission.

But what's the angle here, disgruntled man so sufficiently annoyed by planning permission laws he decided to burn down the hotel?

Kaysen Thoughtless Billiards wrote: »

I know of planning permission being rejected for actual luxury hotels (creating jobs, tourism),
over on the other side of the Island - that got planning rejected due to 'traffic concerrns' from locals.

What did you say about derailing the thread?

If planning gets rejected the reasons are outlined, can you link to the planning decisions of the hotels?

I doubt many of the Asylum Seekers would have cars so I doubt there would be a large increase in traffic or wide need for parking other than what would be all ready provided for by an existing hotel.

Also Asylum Centres do create jobs if that's your main concern.

Zorya wrote: »

I got carded for far less personally directed abuse than is going on at the moment and has been going on in this thread. It is frustrating when the rules of engagement are arbitrary.

Then report it, stop crying wambulance about it.

malinheader · 15-02-2019 6:26pm

Fr. Hiroshima Twinkie wrote: »

Well that's it, you've convinced me!

Truly, the people whose hotel was burned down need to accept the arsons had perfectly legitimate concerns. In fact, they shouldn't be prosecuted! After all, when your country's being invaded by hordes of rapists (who're also dole-sponging, work-stealing terrorists) who've left Europe a burning ruin in their wake, isn't anything justified?

Who cares if innocent people get killed! Who cares if people lose their homes or livelihoods! We need to send a message that people with different coloured skin or who have different beliefs from us aren't welcome! :mad:

DO you live in or near one of the places mentioned.

pumpkin4life · 15-02-2019 6:44pm

Fr. Hiroshima Twinkie wrote: »

Well that's it, you've convinced me!

Truly, the people whose hotel was burned down need to accept the arsons had perfectly legitimate concerns. In fact, they shouldn't be prosecuted! After all, when your country's being invaded by hordes of rapists (who're also dole-sponging, work-stealing terrorists) who've left Europe a burning ruin in their wake, isn't anything justified?

Who cares if innocent people get killed! Who cares if people lose their homes or livelihoods! We need to send a message that people with different coloured skin or who have different beliefs from us aren't welcome! :mad:

It is a legitimate concern when the population of your town changes without your consent, without you knowing any of the people coming in; when your tax payers money is spent to take care of them. And, while the guy who burned down the place is nuts, the reaction is entirely predictable and completely avoidable.

To prevent future fires and lads going rogue, try:

Listening to rural communities and stop this shìt. You're only doing it to feel like a nice person anyway.

Economic migrants don't get hurt. Locals don't get hurt. Things continue on.

Otherwise, Ireland's going to converge with the rest of Europe and their will be a massive increase in social dysfunction.

15-02-2019 7:26pm

pumpkin4life wrote: »

It is a legitimate concern when the population of your town changes without your consent, without you knowing any of the people coming in;

No population of a town has any knowledge or gives consent about any newcomers to their town.
I can go live wherever I want in this country & no one needs to be consulted beforehand

nice_guy80 · 15-02-2019 7:44pm

bubblypop wrote: »

No population of a town has any knowledge or gives consent about any newcomers to their town.
I can go live wherever I want in this country & no one needs to be consulted beforehand

As it should be

What if 100 people move in next door overnight

Wibbs · 15-02-2019 8:15pm

Zorya wrote: »

I got carded for far less personally directed abuse than is going on at the moment and has been going on in this thread. It is frustrating when the rules of engagement are arbitrary.

I have found in my time as a mod that among those of all sorts who live to hit the report post button, the so called "left" are generally more likely to hit report a post* and in a busy forum/thread most mods are not reading replies and rely on reports to get a heads up. In my experience and opinion it's very rarely "bias" Z, more like the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

*I reckon because the "right" types tend to be convinced Boards and mods are biased so don't bother. Joke being the "left" types are often equally convinced Boards and mods are biased against them. Which for me at least suggests more balance than either "side" will admit.

Wibbs · 15-02-2019 8:17pm

bubblypop wrote: »

I can go live wherever I want in this country & no one needs to be consulted beforehand

Yeah like you moving on your own to a small town is in any way equal to a couple of hundred people, any people, moving all at once to a small town.

malinheader · 15-02-2019 8:19pm

Fr. Hiroshima Twinkie wrote: »

Too ****ing right! The people of Ireland need to know that random acts of violence will continue until the demands of people that have these perfectly legitimate concerns are delivered upon! :mad:

I live in all of those places! And let me tell you this: I can't ****ing step outside my door without running into Sharia court officials armed with Muslamic ray-guns, telling me I need to start praying five times a day or they'll cut my head off!

What the **** happened to this country? Why can't I go about my business without being molested by this subhuman scum? And what the hell is going on when people can't even burn down buildings without these do-gooder right-on types telling them not to! This is OUR country! We don't want these dirty, smelly foreign types milling about OUR towns! :mad:

Sorry I asked. Was hoping for a sane person from one of these areas to give there opinion on the clips. Ie is it as bad or hyped up. Watch out for those ray guns. Ffs.

Wibbs · 15-02-2019 8:25pm

dav3 wrote: »

Are you going to continue to hijack these threads posting the same points ad nauseam?

By "hijack" do you mean disagree with you in a group discussion? Because that's how discussion works. Do you mean ask questions where your only answers appear to be go reactive, deflect and attack? And you suggest I want an echo chamber? Really? Do you ever hold up a mirror to your own posts? Apparently not.

Kivaro · 15-02-2019 8:33pm

Reports on the Irish Times today state that claims for asylum in Ireland have reached a 10 year high. Why?
The generous social welfare mecca that we have here is most likely the number one reason. According to the Irish Times in a FOI request, the recent new employment rights for asylum seekers is also driving it. They come here and do one or two years work (if that) and then they are on welfare for life after that if they decide that work is not for them. We know already that many lower-paid workers with children are much better off on the welfare system than working. Low-paid asylum seekers will also see welfare as a better alternative to working. And with billions being spent on social housing in the next few years, there will be brand new homes for the new arrivals.

The Irish Times article mentioned the fears by the Department of Justice of the arrival of illegal immigrants from Britain who "may" come to Ireland after Brexit and claim asylum. And after Brexit, other asylum seekers worldwide will see Ireland as an alternative to Britain to seek asylum.

The head of the Irish Refugee Council was quoted on the Irish Times article that Ireland should "be well able to provide accommodation and appropriate services for newly-arrived asylum seekers". What planet is this man on? I understand that tax payers are paying his salary and that of the staff there, so higher numbers of asylum seekers will correspond to more funding that they receive.

According to internal briefings prepared within the Department of Justice and obtained by the Irish Times, there is a warning of rising tensions “between and among” residents and staff at existing direct provision centres.

Some questions: do we accept asylum seekers indefinitely and in what numbers? Are there enough hotels around the country to handle the influx?
Is it time to admit that a substantial number of asylum seekers are economic migrants? Why have we not learned from other European countries' experiences?

And last question: Is it time to have a rational impartial discussion on the topic yet?

dav3 · 15-02-2019 8:38pm

Wibbs wrote: »

By "hijack" do you mean disagree with you in a group discussion? Because that's how discussion works. Do you mean ask questions where your only answers appear to be go reactive, deflect and attack? And you suggest I want an echo chamber? Really? Do you ever hold up a mirror to your own posts? Apparently not.

There is no need for your asinine rant. A simple answer of 'yes' to the question would have sufficed.

Wibbs · 15-02-2019 8:56pm

dav3 wrote: »

There is no need for your asinine rant. A simple answer of 'yes' to the question would have sufficed.

So far in this thread and by a few people, I along with others have been accused of being a racist, a bigot, a child, a hysteric, paranoid, arrogant, a snivelling little shit and a number of other charming epithets and "LOLs" in place of debate. I suppose I can add "asinine" to the list. Meh, keep them coming as in lieu of debate at least it's amusing.

So have you anything to say to actually engage with debate, or will you continue along the same well trodden path?

Wibbs · 15-02-2019 9:02pm

Kivaro wrote: »

And last question: Is it time to have a rational impartial discussion on the topic yet?

I can't see it happening and I wouldn't hold your breath. It seems to be a fait accompli at this stage and discussion will only kick off when we're facing the same problems as every other country in Europe with similar setups, though hopefully - and I suspect this will be the case - we'll have less of it, because of our small population and the general Irish cultural response of centrism. We tend not to go fully daft to either end of the political spectrum. Politically we as a nation could be summed up with "be grand".

15-02-2019 9:05pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Yeah like you moving on your own to a small town is in any way equal to a couple of hundred people, any people, moving all at once to a small town.

It happened. A lot. Many many little towns had hundreds of houses built during the boom. Small villages became big towns overnight. No one had any right to vet the people moving in.

pumpkin4life · 15-02-2019 9:05pm

bubblypop wrote: »

No population of a town has any knowledge or gives consent about any newcomers to their town.
I can go live wherever I want in this country & no one needs to be consulted beforehand

A village of a population with 564 people according to the last census.

Add 80 people.

564+80=644 people.

644/564 = That's a 14% increase in population in one go, all economic migrants.

That's enough to completely change the structure of the town.

This isn't some random lad buying a holiday home round the corner.

15-02-2019 9:06pm

pumpkin4life wrote: »

A village of a population with 564 people according to the last census.

Add 80 people.

564+80=644 people.

644/564 = That's a 14% increase in population in one go, all economic migrants.

That's enough to completely change the structure of the town.

This isn't some random lad buying a holiday home round the corner.

So?

BBFAN · 15-02-2019 9:26pm

tretorn wrote: »

Please stop with this nonsense.

If asylum seekers are Muslim they won’t integrate here. How as a woman can you integrate with Irish people if you can’t be in male company without a chaperone. How can you integrate with other women if you are covered head to toe with just your eyes visible.

Muslims have lived in great numbers in France and the UK for decades, these two countries have suffered the most from terrorism, France in particular is destroyed and Germany will be the same in two decades.

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

I think your the first person on this thread to mention religion?

Emmmmm?

dav3 · 15-02-2019 9:27pm

Wibbs wrote: »

So far in this thread and by a few people, I along with others have been accused of being a racist, a bigot, a child, a hysteric, paranoid, arrogant, a snivelling little shit and a number of other charming epithets and "LOLs" in place of debate. I suppose I can add "asinine" to the list. Meh, keep them coming as in lieu of debate at least it's amusing.

So have you anything to say to actually engage with debate, or will you continue along the same well trodden path?

Right on cue you start playing the victim card again.

Do you honestly believe you're debating? I doubt you have an original thought in your head on this subject. Every comment you make is parroted from one of the many crackpot conspiracy theorists, some of which were even posted in this thread.

It's the arrogance and aggression from yourself on your friends that turns so many people off commenting on here.

How many threads like these are you going to continue to hijack with logical fallacy, desperately trying to convince people that Ireland is on a slippery slope?

pumpkin4life · 15-02-2019 9:32pm

bubblypop wrote: »

So?

Increased community distrust and breakdown.
Increased pressure on services like housing and health.
Increased actual racism brought about by seeing an economic migrant cared for in a hotel room, to the one crazy lad who sexually harasses/assaults some young one.
Increased voting against the interest of the Irish people, once citizenships are granted, leading to more polarization in society.

And, back to the whole point of this thread, the increased probability of arson attacks where innocent people (a lot of us would do the same thing if we had the same opportunity as these economic migrants from Pakistan, Georgia, Congo etc, this is not a case of hating on these lads being moved into Rooskey) might be burned alive.

If you don't dump 80 people into a town of 564 people, then hotels won't get burned down, typically. That's way more effective than bullshìt statements like "fight hate" and "Irish people are wacists" and "lets have a rational discussion even though rational means agreeing with me".

Wibbs · 15-02-2019 10:00pm

dav3 wrote: »

Right on cue you start playing the victim card again.

Nope, you may play that game and assume others do, I don't. I'm merely pointing out what has been said by those like yourself because ye're claiming to be seeking an honest and open debate. Hell at one point you yourself were musing on my longevity; You could could have a week left to live, you may have 10 years left to live. This is no way to see out the remaining years of your life. Surely you can see that. You can't live in a constant state of fear right up until the end. There is still time to change. And that's not "aggressive" and "arrogant"? Never mind some feverish projection on your part. I do know that if just one of those things had been aimed at you you'd be hitting report post like a flipper button on a pinball machine. BTW I didn't report any posts. I generally don't as it happens.

Do you honestly believe you're debating? I doubt you have an original thought in your head on this subject. Every comment you make is parroted from one of the many crackpot conspiracy theorists, some of which were even posted in this thread.

Point out an example of "crackpot conspiracy" I've posted? I have said the many decades long evidence from other European nations that have run the multicultural experiment have led to social problems and why are we hellbent on trying to repeat them near verbatim? Ghettoisation, racism towards the indigenous population and in turn from them, increases in social problems in the following generations of immigrant folks, increases in poverty among ethnic groups, community mistrust of each other and especially authorities, and that's for a start, all the way up to civil disturbances. Do you deny that these social issues exist and continue to exist in the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Holland, Sweden? You seem to think the extreme right wing have all but gone away, so anything is possible.

However I also said a few times and in my last post with it hopefully - and I suspect this will be the case - we'll have less of it, because of our small population and the general Irish cultural response of centrism. We tend not to go fully daft to either end of the political spectrum.

I have also suggested possible solutions to some of the issues. At least to the point of going beyond pie in the sky stuff like "fight racists". EG local consultation and dialogue before centres are set up. People are much more likely to welcome a thousand people in when they feel they have a choice in the matter, rather than a hundred people when they feel they don't. If local and governmental authorities are wary of giving locals a choice what message does that send? They don't care or value local opinion? They don't trust them to make the right choice? That too many might be racists? That's a damned good way to encourage the minority of nutters to get the wider community behind them. And if that's the case what the hell do they think is wise about dropping people into that environment, especially if it's vulnerable families actually fleeing war zones?

Though TBH I don't see it as that complex a response from the local authorities, never ascribe conspiracy or complexity to something when basic incompetence is by far the more likely reason.

Most of all we should have an open dialogue on where other countries got it wrong and got it right and try to being in more of the latter. It's pretty clear by the slipshod approach by the Irish government and local authorities that they're not doing this.

That's asking questions looking for answers.

dav3 · 15-02-2019 10:34pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope, you may play that game and assume others do, I don't. I'm merely pointing out what has been said by those like yourself because ye're claiming to be seeking an honest and open debate...

I never made that claim. The debate on this subject has raged on for years. You need to stop being so disingenuous by suggesting otherwise.

You also need to knock the 'butter wouldn’t melt in your mouth' spiel on the head. What exactly did "almost your entire posting history on this website and across a couple of previous accounts has been a political agenda" mean earlier?

Using emotive language such as 'men of fighting age' or 'open borders' brings nothing to the discussion, yet we see it popping up time and again on threads like these. It's designed to spread fear and hostility, and is typically directed to a particular type of person.
I doubt you have the statistics for asylum centres in Ireland, the feedback from the local population, or indeed the history. Yet you appear to be an expert on the subject and continue to push the slippery slope theory about Ireland at any opportunity.

How about you bring your "debate" to one of the many other threads running around boards and leave this one as it should be. These discussions do not evolve naturally. They are constantly hijacked by the same people within the first couple of pages pushing their agenda looking to spread fear and hate among people.

Although it is presented as 'just asking questions', it is anything but. Thankfully the majority of Irish people can see through this.

SnakePlissken · 15-02-2019 10:49pm

bubblypop wrote: »

pumpkin4life wrote: »

A village of a population with 564 people according to the last census.

Add 80 people.

564+80=644 people.

644/564 = That's a 14% increase in population in one go, all economic migrants.

That's enough to completely change the structure of the town.

This isn't some random lad buying a holiday home round the corner.

So?

This is the calibre of debate we're dealing with.

Incident at Roscommon hotel (asylum seekers)

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