Another American backed coup happening in Venezuela

eagle eye · 10-02-2019 3:09pm

ArchXStanton wrote:

I wonder does he ever get up in the morning, look in the mirror and realise he's a stooge for US imperialistic foreign policy, what's more pitiful is these brainwashed type people believe they are thousands of kilometres from home in places like Iraq protecting "muh American freedams".... thank you for your service!.... Of furthering death and destruction in the name of oil

Do you think that everything will be ok if Maduro is left in charge of Venezuela?

Gatling · 10-02-2019 3:36pm

Brian? wrote: »

These threads just attract anti Socialist posters who don’t want to engage in anything but they did this and they did that.

Case and point ...

Manic Moran · 10-02-2019 4:13pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I wonder does he ever get up in the morning, look in the mirror and realise he's a stooge for US imperialistic foreign policy, what's more pitiful is these brainwashed type people believe they are thousands of kilometres from home in places like Iraq protecting "muh American freedams".... thank you for your service!.... Of furthering death and destruction in the name of oil

Nope, can’t say I do. My personal opinions on what I was thinking whilst thousands of kilometers from home are another matter, though I have to say, I was spending more brainpower on what was in front of me and who I was talking to than higher governmental assessments.

In the meantime, I wish the Venezuelan dissident US imperialistic stooges who object to the Maduro government all the luck in the world. Especially if the Maduro supporters won’t address basic questions on the topic instead of trying to deflect.

Irish Praetorian · 10-02-2019 4:21pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I wonder does he ever get up in the morning, look in the mirror and realise he's a stooge for US imperialistic foreign policy, what's more pitiful is these brainwashed type people believe they are thousands of kilometres from home in places like Iraq protecting "muh American freedams".... thank you for your service!.... Of furthering death and destruction in the name of oil

To be fair, whilst I can't claim to have made an extensive search, I'm not sure if Mr. Manic has ever used the phrase 'muh freedoms'; best I can tell he seems to suffer from the characteristic vice of professional soldiers, namely a desire to try and get everybody there and back in one piece.

Perhaps I am mistaken on that point and by all means I remain open to correction. However, regardless but it does seem somewhat unseemly to make the whole 'brainwashed stooge' whilst at the same time reciting perhaps the most average caricature of anti-American sentiment.

ArchXStanton · 10-02-2019 5:32pm

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

To be fair, whilst I can't claim to have made an extensive search, I'm not sure if Mr. Manic has ever used the phrase 'muh freedoms'; best I can tell he seems to suffer from the characteristic vice of professional soldiers, namely a desire to try and get everybody there and back in one piece.

Perhaps I am mistaken on that point and by all means I remain open to correction. However, regardless but it does seem somewhat unseemly to make the whole 'brainwashed stooge' whilst at the same time reciting perhaps the most average caricature of anti-American sentiment.

Why not, it boggles my mind that these people and a lot of the American public think they are over in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya and soon to be Venezuela fighting for their freedom back home, how exactly are these countries impinging on their freedom... Oh would you look at that my inbox just went off, a warning for personal abuse, I'll leave you too it, no matter were the US shows up carnage ensues

Irish Praetorian · 10-02-2019 5:45pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Why not, it boggles my mind that these people and a lot of the American public think they are over in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya and soon to be Venezuela fighting for their freedom back home, how exactly are these countries impinging on their freedom... Oh would you look at that my inbox just went off, a warning for personal abuse, I'll leave you too it, no matter were the US shows up carnage ensues

Well to answer your question as best I can, I don't think its fair to paint the American public as being universally in favour of these foreign adventures, quite far from it actually. Heck in 2008 opposition to Iraq was one of the reasons for Obama's election and his presidency largely dwelt on drawing down these forays, not increasing them. Libya I must remind you was an Anglo-French adventure not an American one, and Syria, despite the chattering, was not invaded by the US and managed to ruin itself without American intervention (instead benefiting from Saudi and UAE 'help'). Trump in the most recent election also ran on a brief of avoiding foreign entanglements and in many cases backing down from confrontation with Russia. I'm really not convinced the US is going to 'pull an Iraq' when it comes to Venezuela so I think your worries there might be premature.

I will finish with this one side note though, we do have to start making some greater distinctions in these countries between 'US and US aligned' and 'freedom fighters' - there is no American annexation that various militant groups in Iraq or Afghanistan can claim to be fighting, just governments that are at least purporting to try and be better than what came before them. We will not be better off if the Taliban return to power in Afghanistan or if somehow Islamist insurgents take control of Iraq. Despite the cost in blood, US intervention in those regions at least left them with better governments than those which preceded them, and we should be careful to not throw these particular babies out with the bathwater. In much the same way, we should not be so quick to recoil at the idea of a Venezuelan opposition government, simply because it has been 'touched' by the US.

James Brown · 11-02-2019 3:25pm

Brian? wrote: »

These threads just attract anti Socialist posters who don’t want to engage in anything but they did this and they did that.

As I recall it started when the US was criticised then went on to discuss socialism and why would China or Russia be any better. As regards the thread title....

Corporate America drives these faux democratic outrages. 'The west' will nod along in most cases so as not to upset US trade. It's a complete sham and everyone knows it. Might some good come from it, sure. Who the US supports depends on where the money is. At least Ireland took a stand on Israel. Anyone hear the praise Trump poured on Kim Jong Un the other day?

President Donald Trump tweeted on Friday that he believes North Korea will become an "economic powerhouse" under leader Kim Jong Un.

"North Korea, under the leadership of Kim Jong Un, will become a great Economic Powerhouse," Trump tweeted. "He may surprise some but he won’t surprise me, because I have gotten to know him & fully understand how capable he is. North Korea will become a different kind of Rocket - an Economic one!"
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-praises-kim-jong-un-says-north-korean-leader-may-surprise-some-1325122

The man's regime has famine, murders and disappearances as the norm.
And the US is the champion of democracy looking out for the average Venezuelan? How must people who escaped North Korea be feeling reading such tripe? I think it's fair to criticise the US without having to defend Karl Marx.

Spannerplank · 11-02-2019 7:33pm

CPTM wrote: »

Hi Spannerplank - I've a huge amount of connections and family currently in Venezuela. Luckily none of them are eating rats or flamingos at the moment. But think of the bottom of our society, I mean the very bottom. How are they living in our first world country?

Mass starvation doesn't necessarily happen like the infamous Ethiopian cases wherein people wake up and suddenly there is no food. It can happen over time, which is the case in Venezuela. People are still working in banks you know, the police are still getting up. Kids are going to school. Even restaurants are open and bakeries. If you're looking for an Ethiopian epidemic, you won't find it in Venezuela. The starvation that's happening is because people are eating 50% of their daily recommended calorie intake, a lot of bread and water, and maybe some cheese. Very little nutrition. Kids are growing, but the videos you can find online will show you teenagers that look like 6 year olds. Remember the different levels of society, and with starvation in Venezuela we're mainly talking about the bottom half, which is enveloping more of their society everyday.

The problem I have with the media is that they make people like you question everything even when there is clear evidence of a problem. The media's general approach to glorifying everything now has you implying in this thread that you don't believe any of it, and begging for videos and, when you get them, validity of the videos and pictures. You have lost so much faith in public information, that you can only believe things when you physically travel and see them with your own eyes.

What I would ask you to do is forget about using some parts of the media and online videos as a starting point. You are using them as an input to your perspective of Venezuela and you're right - that's not the correct approach.

Think about a far left regime and the history of them. Think about passports not being issued to civilians so they can't work if they leave. In spite of that, think about the mass exodus from the country (millions). Think about the treacherous journeys that everyday people are making with their kids to get over the freezing Venezuelan mountains. Think about the protests and amount of different world powers that are backing the end of Maduro's presidency.

Can't your mind see (without videos) that perhaps people are leaving behind a desperate place? Now, once you have reached that conclusion, take a look at the videos online - Are the bottom half of society eating rats? Yes, of course they are. What else would make you pack up your belongings, take your kids over a freezing mountain, and move to another country in which you have no access to work or social welfare?

mod note:

Please read the charter before posting again. You cant just dump a video and ask other posters to give their view on it. It is a discussion forum not a bulletin board.

Cheerful Spring · 11-02-2019 9:53pm

Gatling wrote: »

These threads just seem to attract anti American posters who don't want to engage in anything but they did this and they did that ,
While apparently being blissfully unaware of actually whats going on around the world ,

Why are we anti-American? I think America is a great country. Disagreeing about their foreign policy is not the same as hating the country.

Spannerplank · 11-02-2019 10:27pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you think that everything will be ok if Maduro is left in charge of Venezuela?

I would imagine it will be just fine if the US ceased its campaign of economic warfare designed to cause widespread civilian misery in an attempt to foment a coup that will replace the existing and predominantly supported leader with a CIA trained stooge.

If you swallow the lie that Maduro is a dictator then I have some news for you.

Venezuela is one of THE most democratic countries in the world. It is one of only two (the other being Iceland) where a sitting president can be recalled at any time.

The Carter Institute which has inspected and overseen over 100 elections in 39 countries. They monitored 25 elections in Venezuela since 1999. 6 of them in the last year and former President Jimmy Carter stated that they were the most transparent and bona fide in his experience.

AngryHippie · 11-02-2019 11:00pm

Spannerplank wrote: »

I would imagine it will be just fine if the US ceased its campaign of economic warfare designed to cause widespread civilian misery in an attempt to foment a coup that will replace the existing and predominantly supported leader with a CIA trained stooge.

If you swallow the lie that Maduro is a dictator then I have some news for you.

Venezuela is one of THE most democratic countries in the world. It is one of only two (the other being Iceland) where a sitting president can be recalled at any time.

The Carter InstituteCENTER which has inspected and overseen over 100 elections in 39 countries. They monitored 25 elections in Venezuela since 1999. 6 of them in the last year and former President Jimmy Carter stated that they were the most transparent and bona fide in his experience.

What are you on ?

From your own source, Last Week:https://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/venezuela-020419.html
Press release stating that the national assembly was freely elected and subsequently disbanded by Maduro.....

from March 24th

Center urges Nicolás Maduro to respect the democratic and participatory values and clauses protected in the Venezuelan constitution and calls on all Venezuelan leaders, including the democratically elected National Assembly

How you read this as Maduro being some sort of victim of anything other than his own utter failure was beyond me, until I realised that you can't even get the name of the organization correct. :rolleyes:

Spannerplank · 11-02-2019 11:58pm

AngryHippie wrote: »

What are you on ?

From your own source, Last Week:https://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/venezuela-020419.html
Press release stating that the national assembly was freely elected and subsequently disbanded by Maduro.....

from March 24th

How you read this as Maduro being some sort of victim of anything other than his own utter failure was beyond me, until I realised that you can't even get the name of the organization correct. :rolleyes:

Well somebody's lying then:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/former-us-president-carter-venezuelan-electoral-system-best-in-the-world/5305779

AngryHippie · 12-02-2019 12:23am

Spannerplank wrote: »

Well somebody's lying then:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/former-us-president-carter-venezuelan-electoral-system-best-in-the-world/5305779

Mérida, 21st September 2012 (Venezuelanalysis.com) – Former US President Jimmy Carter has declared that Venezuela’s electoral system is the best in the world.

Thats from 7 years ago.

FWIW WW2 lasted 6 years. lots can change....;)

Irish Praetorian · 12-02-2019 12:47am

While we're on the subject, GlobalResearch.ca is practically speaking the equivalent of InfoWars or any generic conspiracy theory website, with a content replete with the expected nonsense. It's also been accused of being a major outlet of pro-Russian propaganda but I will just leave this gem from an article that was in circulation when I clicked on it just now;

'9/11 was a neo-con coup. To believe otherwise is to willfully suspend the laws of physics, and to reject historical facts and common sense. It requires a leap of misguided faith.'

To my mind, even if one had truck with the sentiments or opinions expressed within, this is the equivalent of someone posting from Fox News or the Daily Mail to get a fair and balanced look at Venezuela.

AMKC · 12-02-2019 2:53pm

I see he gave on interview to the BBC where he said Donald Trump is a white supremacist and the the KKK now run America. Now don't get be wrong. I do not like Donald Trump. He is not a nice person and never should have run for President but I do think some of the things that the Venezuelan president said are a bit over the top like the KKK bit.
I also think the Venezuelan President is silly not to accept the aid been offered to them as while he might not be suffering his people certainly are and its terrible to see. To think Venezuela used to be the richest Country in Central America and now its one if not the poorest is very sad to see.

Spannerplank · 12-02-2019 5:52pm

AngryHippie wrote: »

Thats from 7 years ago.

FWIW WW2 lasted 6 years. lots can change....;)

Yet the CC said they had no observation since 2003. Was it 2003 or 2012?

Spannerplank · 12-02-2019 5:56pm

AMKC wrote: »

I see he gave on interview to the BBC where he said Donald Trump is a white supremacist and the the KKK now run America. Now don't get be wrong. I do not like Donald Trump. He is not a nice person and never should have run for President but I do think some of the things that the Venezuelan president said are a bit over the top like the KKK bit.
I also think the Venezuelan President is silly not to accept the aid been offered to them as while he might not be suffering his people certainly are and its terrible to see. To think Venezuela used to be the richest Country in Central America and now its one if not the poorest is very sad to see.

Foreign aid, when not asked for, is a tool of outside infiltration. It's a method of telling the world "these monkeys can't take are of themselves" .

Spannerplank · 12-02-2019 6:08pm

AMKC wrote: »

I see he gave on interview to the BBC where he said Donald Trump is a white supremacist and the the KKK now run America. Now don't get be wrong. I do not like Donald Trump. He is not a nice person and never should have run for President but I do think some of the things that the Venezuelan president said are a bit over the top like the KKK bit.
I also think the Venezuelan President is silly not to accept the aid been offered to them as while he might not be suffering his people certainly are and its terrible to see. To think Venezuela used to be the richest Country in Central America and now its one if not the poorest is very sad to see.

North Korea is sitting on over 1 trillion dollars worth of iron, bauxite, copper, zinc, etc. But they can't harvest it because the US has prevented them. You may not like the fact that Washington are wrecking societies that want to go their own way but that's your personal problem.

Topgear on Dave · 12-02-2019 6:32pm

Spannerplank wrote: »

North Korea is sitting on over 1 trillion dollars worth of iron, bauxite, copper, zinc, etc. But they can't harvest it because the US has prevented them. You may not like the fact that Washington are wrecking societies that want to go their own way but that's your personal problem.

North Korea is a brutal dictatorship controlled by a small elite with leadership handed down from father to son.

It doesn't strike me as a society that is "going its own way".

Spannerplank · 12-02-2019 6:40pm

AMKC wrote: »

I see he gave on interview to the BBC where he said Donald Trump is a white supremacist and the the KKK now run America. Now don't get be wrong. I do not like Donald Trump. He is not a nice person and never should have run for President but I do think some of the things that the Venezuelan president said are a bit over the top like the KKK bit.
I also think the Venezuelan President is silly not to accept the aid been offered to them as while he might not be suffering his people certainly are and its terrible to see. To think Venezuela used to be the richest Country in Central America and now its one if not the poorest is very sad to see.

What did the tiny white ruling class of Venezuela call Chavez when he ran for power against the habitually corrupt and vicious Calderon?

They referred to him as "Negro e Indio"

It wasn't enough to see if the man could lead. The first thing out of their mouths was that he was a n..g.r

AMKC · 12-02-2019 6:58pm

Spannerplank wrote: »

North Korea is sitting on over 1 trillion dollars worth of iron, bauxite, copper, zinc, etc. But they can't harvest it because the US has prevented them. You may not like the fact that Washington are wrecking societies that want to go their own way but that's your personal problem.

I never said anything about having a personal problem about what Washington are doing.

James Brown · 12-02-2019 6:59pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

North Korea is a brutal dictatorship controlled by a small elite with leadership handed down from father to son.

It doesn't strike me as a society that is "going its own way".

Yet they are A.O.K by Trump. He thinks it's all a bit of ego jostling and diplomatic fun. But Venezuela is completely different....

Irish Praetorian · 12-02-2019 9:09pm

Spannerplank wrote: »

Foreign aid, when not asked for, is a tool of outside infiltration. It's a method of telling the world "these monkeys can't take are of themselves" .

Spannerplank wrote: »

North Korea is sitting on over 1 trillion dollars worth of iron, bauxite, copper, zinc, etc. But they can't harvest it because the US has prevented them. You may not like the fact that Washington are wrecking societies that want to go their own way but that's your personal problem.

Spannerplank wrote: »

What did the tiny white ruling class of Venezuela call Chavez when he ran for power against the habitually corrupt and vicious Calderon?

They referred to him as "Negro e Indio"

It wasn't enough to see if the man could lead. The first thing out of their mouths was that he was a n..g.r

You know, when one of the big rumours going around is that Russian bots are trying to sway peoples opinion by using online message boards, it kind of makes sense not to tack in three separate responses to a single post in a 50 minute period.

Just to deal with the points you raise, firstly, I am surprised to learn that unsolicited foreign aid is apparently an insult to the glorious Bolivarian regime One might be led to believe that the 2 million odd emigrations in recent years had let that particular cat out of the bag, but I'm sure maintaining the prestige of the regime is the more pressing issue.

Secondly, it is also a surprise to learn that the US is the reason that North Korea can't extract iron, bauxite, copper and zinc, but at the same time, through some magical process, it is more than capable of extract coal for Chinese benefit. Perhaps you might elaborate on that process for us, presumably it has nothing to do with North Korea being a backwards totalitarian state incapable of sustaining the kind of economic and political maturity evident in its southern neighbour.

Lastly, I'm not sure what exactly is relevant in noting that someone somewhere 15 years ago referred to a man who died 5 years ago as (and Im translating here) 'Black and Indian' - I could certainly imagine racial prejudice has and continue to play a role in politics as it does worldwide, I'm just not sure that it can be used to excuse such exceptional malfeasance in national governance. Also while I'm here it was President Caldera, not Calderon, you may be confusing him with a Mexican counterpart by that name.

Spannerplank · 12-02-2019 11:57pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

North Korea is a brutal dictatorship controlled by a small elite with leadership handed down from father to son.

It doesn't strike me as a society that is "going its own way".

Is it now?
A brutal dictatorship you say.

Been there or just parrotting?

AngryHippie · 13-02-2019 12:09am

Spannerplank wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Is it now?
A brutal dictatorship you say.

Been there or just parrotting?

Brutal enough to murder his own half brother with nerve agent in a foreign airport.....heard about it or just a bit defensive ?

johnnyskeleton · 13-02-2019 12:28am

Mod note:

Spannerplank banned for three days for trolling.

markodaly · 15-02-2019 1:42pm

It is amazing the retorts one gets when faced with the failures of Socialism.
The Russians and Chinese are great lads. The Ukrainians and Tibetans should be grateful for the foreign influence,
but the Americans are evil incarnate always and forever.

This got me thinking, would the same people object to the Marshal plan of 1948.
This was the time when banners were flown in France by communist sympathisers stating that Stalin was 'a man of peace'
Well, I guess they are on the wrong side of history... lol

In all seriousness though, Truman recognised that the enemy of democracy was not Stalinism but poverty, so maybe we should divert the topic to a marshal plan for Latin America. Look at Chile post-Pinochet. Venezuela had all the raw materials to be another Chile, but instead it's just another East Germany.

James Brown · 15-02-2019 2:53pm

Stalin

It's amazing how criticism of the US backed coup resorts to criticisms of dictatorships, (which by the way both the US and Ireland are happy to do business with despite rampant human rights violations) feigning socialism. The only thing Maduro did wrong was not make the west money.

Gatling · 15-02-2019 5:16pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

.
The only thing Maduro did wrong was not make the west money.

He's made himself a lot of money like Chavez before him ,

Again typically it's all America's fault for the way idiots are elected and run their economies into the ground while the leader and his friends get rich ,

Irish Praetorian · 15-02-2019 5:46pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Stalin It's amazing how criticism of the US backed coup resorts to criticisms of dictatorships, (which by the way both the US and Ireland are happy to do business with despite rampant human rights violations) feigning socialism. The only thing Maduro did wrong was not make the west money.

Forgive me for saying so, but if people arent inclined to take the criticism of the various superpowers involvement with dictatorial regimes during the cold war period, they should not be so quick to dole it out. I generally find 1991 is a good cut off point to start judging the actions of the worlds nations. Incidentally if we are going to condemn nations for doing business with dictatorships, it may amuse you to learn that up until this year the US was one of the last powers to buy Venezuelan oil with cash. It never ceases to amaze me how the Maduro regime could expound such vociferous condemnation of the US whilst still gleefully trading with them.

Another American backed coup happening in Venezuela

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