Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

alloywheel wrote: »

After many decades of being a pillar of the EEC / EU, since the early seventies, and its second biggest net contributor, the UK has has enough and has democratically voted to leave. Say what you like about the British, but when they say they will do something, they do it. They do not surrender. They do not have further referendums or get bribed to change their mind, like us. They will leave on March 29th, they have had enough. The EU saying the Brexiters have a special place in Hell just strengthens their resolve and does not help matters.

The question is what will happen on this island? The British and the Unionists do not want a hard border, but my bet is that the EU will force us to have a hard border.

It reminds me of visiting Gibraltar many decades years ago. The British symbolically had their gates open, while only a stones throw away the Spanish had their gates closed, so no traffic could pass.

The British were always a trading country with the rest of the world, that is how they controlled a quarter of the world at one stage, they like trading with the world.

They controlled 1/4 of the world through a series of bloody invasions that set up a host of exploitative regimes.

The EU wont create the conditions that make a border necessary on this island, the EU are not implementing any new policy. There is no change being enforced on the EU side. The British are the ones that are changing things on this island, this was their choice and they are responsible for the border if one has to be erected.

gooch2k9 wrote: »

Myself and a unionist fellow at work had a similar discussion last week, concerning the Irish language. The conclusion was unionists couldn't/wouldn't compromise on it as it is a weapon of Sinn Féin. I'd imagine the argument would be the same regarding the flag.

Thats ok, Unionists won't compromise and they dont have to, they just have to be out voted, thats the beauty of the GFA.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The population of Northern Ireland is 1.9 million a majority of them are in favour of retaining the union. Are we really going to spilt hairs on this?

"Unionist" is a political descriptor, as far as I am aware there has never been an election wher 1 million people voted for unionist parties.

CelticRambler wrote: »

Would either/both of you agree that the same logic should apply to NI? GB has subsidised it to more or less the same amount annually as it's net contribution to the EU, but with much less of a return on that investment.

Or to put it another way: if the financial cost of EU membership is sufficient justification for justify English nationalists to cut their ties with the EU, is there any good reason to not to cut ties with NI, especially when the presence of NI in the UK prevents the UK from signing new trade deals with other countries/blocs?

You not comparing like with like. NI is an integral part of the UK/Britain. My history is not good but I think we have been for 800+ years.
Some parts of the UK are being very supportive of NI, Scottish highlands, etc, etc. And I am very appreciative of everything that the rest of the UK does to support us.
NI has been crucial to the UK at certain times in history eg the world wars. Churchill said that if it wasn’t for Ulster Britain would not be free. I believe enniskillen and London were the only two towns to raise two regiments, the Belfast shipyard was vital during their war. The raf based the war headquarters in Stormont etc etc.
So it’s a little more complex.

alloywheel wrote: »

I think everyone in the UK is glad the UK stayed out of the Euro too. The British were proved right on that one.

Being part of the Eurozone contributed to our property bubble and subsequent bust, because Germany insisted we stick to the interest rates that suited them back in 2001 - 2006. Those interest rates were far too low for our economy at the time, but it suited the Germans, who lent to us. And insisted we repay the bondholders when it all went t*** up. The UK were able to control their own interest rates and their downturn and recession and property slump was not as bad as ours. The Germans shafted us then, they will do it again, mark my words. When it will suit them, 4 or 5 million people on the edge of Europe will not be high on their list of priorities.

Yes yes, the EU will turn on us, any day now. They would really want to get a move on though, they have less than 50 left to actually do it.

alloywheel wrote: »

I think everyone in the UK is glad the UK stayed out of the Euro too. The British were proved right on that one.

Being part of the Eurozone contributed to our property bubble and subsequent bust, because Germany insisted we stick to the interest rates that suited them back in 2001 - 2006. Those interest rates were far too low for our economy at the time, but it suited the Germans, who lent to us. And insisted we repay the bondholders when it all went t*** up. The UK were able to control their own interest rates and their downturn and recession and property slump was not as bad as ours. The Germans shafted us then, they will do it again, mark my words. When it will suit them, 4 or 5 million people on the edge of Europe will not be high on their list of priorities.

Germany didn’t insist on keeping interest rates low. They couldn’t have as they had one vote out of fifteen plus votes on the ECB governing body. And if the interest rates were “too low” for us, then it was our responsibility to manage our economy in a prudent fashion, rather than betting it all on the average house price increasing ad infinitum.

alloywheel wrote: »

If you take the EDA for example , that agency is financed by its members in proportion to their Gross National Income. An effect of this is that some nations pay different contributions towards the budgets than others. For example, in 2007 the biggest budgetary contributor was Germany at a cost of €4,202,027 followed by the United Kingdom paying €3,542,487, and France paying €3,347,139. Few people in the UK will mourn the loss of UK membership of that agency.

The U.K. was one of the enthusiastic supporters of the EDA and quite upset that the EU would “punish them” by refusing to let them continue on as members of it after the U.K. left the EU.

The choice now facing the U.K. is either forego the advances made by the EDA or alternatively it can set up a “British Defence Agency” and pay the entire €30+ billion by itself, rather than the €3.3 billion it would have to pay as part of the EDA.

Deleted (repeat post).

View wrote: »

By the government and people of Ireland.

What do you think people used as a flag prior to 1916 (which is when the Tricolour started to become a popular flag and even then it was very much associated solely with one strand of public opinion here).

Not much evidence of its use by the people of Ireland. And it ceased to be used by the government in 1800.

When Henry VIII had himself declared "King of Ireland" in 1541, he adpoted a gold harp on a blue background as the coat of arms of the new Kingdom. No such symbol had ever been used, so far as we know, by any High King ruling or claiming to rule Ireland, or by any regional king. The previous English administration in Ireland (which, as we know, most of the time rules only small parts of Ireland), the "Lordship of Ireland" didn't use the harp either; its coat of arms was three crowns on a blue field. Some coinage issued in Ireland by King John did contain a triangular device which may, or may not, have been a crude represenation of a harp, but that's the closest we come to any official use of the harp as a national emblem prior to 1541.

Thereafter the English administration in Ireland pretty consistently used a gold harp on a blue field as its emblem up until the Act of Union in 1800. However there's not much evidence that this enjoyed any popular support or usage. Irish merchant shipping (of which there was never very much) flew the British red ensign. A gold harp on a green background is said to have been used by some of the French military detachments associated with the Wild Geese, and was certainly adopted by the United Irishmen, and later used by the Fenians. The St. Patrick's Cross - a red diagonal cross on a white background - turns up as a patriotic emblem in the eighteenth century, particularly associated with the Volunteer movement and Grattan's Parliament (and this, of course, is eventually incorporated into the Union Jack). And of course in the nineteenth century we have a bewildering variaty of Starry Ploughs, Sunbursts, Shamrocks, etc, in use alongside the green harp banner. The green harp banner wasn't so much a national symbol as a nationalist symbol.

Joanna Better Hairpiece wrote: »

If uk farmers want staff post-brexit, all they have to do in adopt to 'the new price elasticity' (i.e. pay better wages).

You think consumers will be just as quick to adopt to the new price elasticity?

alloywheel wrote: »

I think everyone in the UK is glad the UK stayed out of the Euro too. The British were proved right on that one.

Being part of the Eurozone contributed to our property bubble and subsequent bust, because Germany insisted we stick to the interest rates that suited them back in 2001 - 2006. Those interest rates were far too low for our economy at the time, but it suited the Germans, who lent to us. And insisted we repay the bondholders when it all went t*** up. The UK were able to control their own interest rates and their downturn and recession and property slump was not as bad as ours. The Germans shafted us then, they will do it again, mark my words. When it will suit them, 4 or 5 million people on the edge of Europe will not be high on their list of priorities.

Not this again. The low interest rates didn't just suit Germany, but the vast bulk of the Eurozone!

Ireland could very easily have enacted legislation to prevent over lending by our own domestic banks. In fact such legislation is currently on the statute books!

Just because the fire is lit doesn't mean you have to shove your hand into it.

The Euro has forced some fiscal responsibility on Irish governments. No longer can they simply devalue the currency. Long may it continue.