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Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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    #2642
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭1641


    STB. wrote: »
    So I googled the salary and allowances for nurses, given the reluctance of many to do the same.

    They are published on the INMO's website.

    https://www.inmo.ie/tempDocs/Salary%20scales%201%20January%202018.pdf

    So 14,150 for a student nurse.

    Post qualification - 24,604.

    Then qualified staff nurses and midwives have a starting point of 28,768 rising to 43,000 after 11 years (they get a grand for each extra year they work).


    Yes, we have seen the salary scale, STB. Senior staff nurse up to €47,898, etc.

    Other promotional grades too, CNMs, CNSs, etc.


    I think the average figure in the discussion relates to average annual earnings , inclusive of allowances, premiums and, presumably overtime. And it covers all grades, not just staff nurse, as these too are included in the pay claim.


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    #2643
    alloywheel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭alloywheel


    AllForIt wrote: »
    It will be something like a percentage of what they are asking for with promises of incremental increases over the next 5 years or so. They usually end up something like that.
    Not this time, not with Brexit and probable recession coming, what with all thats going on in the world, Trump, China, Italy now in recession, the housing bubble in OZ burst etc.. And especially not considering our nurses are already some of the best paid in the world.


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    #2644
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    1641 wrote: »
    Yes, we have seen the salary scale, STB. Senior staff nurse up to €47,898, etc.

    Other promotional grades too, CNMs, CNSs, etc.

    I think the average figure in the discussion relates to average annual earnings , inclusive of allowances, premiums and, presumably overtime. And it covers all grades, not just staff nurse, as these too are included in the pay claim.


    But I gather they are not all CNMs. The majority start on a basic of 28k (after completing a 4 year degree course) rising to a max of 43 grand after 11 year pay on that payscale, with 1 thousand euro increments in between.

    It really is terrible money for such shít working conditions.


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    #2645
    jlm29
    Registered Users Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭jlm29


    STB. wrote: »
    But I gather they are not all CNMs. The majority start on a basic of 28k (after completing a 4 year degree course) rising to a max of 43 grand after 11 year pay on that payscale, with 1 thousand euro increments in between.

    It really is terrible money for such shít working conditions.

    They may not all start as CNMs, but there are many opportunities available for career progression for those that want them. From what I’ve seen, many nurses who do not move away from shift work at ward level choose this, because it suits their family life, childcare arrangements, etc.
    Postgraduate study is frequently funded by the hse, and promotions created to meet them when they get their postgrad certs.


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    #2646
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭ [Deleted User]


    hawkelady wrote: »
    I agree. It’ll be trashed out over the weekend before the 3 days in a row , I reckon. 6 or 7% upfront and the rest over the coming 3-5 years.

    They can't capitulate unfortunately. Also, if nurses get their pay rise, every other profession will strike.


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    #2647
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They can't capitulate unfortunately. Also, if nurses get their pay rise, every other profession will strike.

    We are slap bang in the middle of an existing pay agreement. Other Public Servants will not sit quietly if that is broken for nurses.


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    #2648
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭1641


    STB. wrote: »
    But I gather they are not all CNMs. The majority start on a basic of 28k (after completing a 4 year degree course) rising to a max of 43 grand after 11 year pay on that payscale, with 1 thousand euro increments in between.

    It really is terrible money for such shít working conditions.


    Of course not. I assume the majority will be staff nurses. But staff nurses must be, on average, earning quite a lot more that the basic pay scale salary, given the overall annual earnings for all grades (wte). There are quite a few allowances/premiums available for nurses. Then there is overtime.
    Some may not like overtime, but it has always appealed to some - particularly double time shifts.


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    #2649
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    STB. wrote: »
    But I gather they are not all CNMs. The majority start on a basic of 28k (after completing a 4 year degree course) rising to a max of 43 grand after 11 year pay on that payscale, with 1 thousand euro increments in between.

    It really is terrible money for such shít working conditions.

    43 is not the max, you missed the LSI and those are the 2018 figures you are quoting.

    45,703 is the max.

    You ignoring their allowances?

    https://inmo.ie/salary_information


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    #2650
    Martina1991
    Registered Users Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    STB. wrote:
    It really is terrible money for such shít working conditions.
    I agree with you.

    But increasing the salaries of the top-heavy tier of nurses is not fair and is a big obstacle for agreeing to their demands.


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    #2651
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    alloywheel wrote: »
    LIE. Show me where I said those words. I did not use the word nurses. I was talking about the HSE. I know the post number. Let you find it. :D
    And I did not say "every month". Watch your words and do not accuse me of something I did not say.

    You are not the brightest. I have quoted this to you 4 times already.
    alloywheel wrote: »
    If there was not 100,000 days a month lost to absenteeism it would help a lot. The slighest bit of a cold or a hangover or an ache and they are off. Even nurses themselves admit that.

    You were responding to the previous post. This thread is called "Do you think nurses will get their payrise".
    alloywheel wrote: »
    n.b Even if you just google "100,000 absenteeism in the HSE", the Examiner says "A STARTLING 100,000 working days were lost in one month in the HSE due to absenteeism." That was in 2009, before numbers rose to the levels they are at today.

    Now answer the questions put to you.

    Again that's not what you said.

    Given the numbers employed in the HSE and in agencies funded by the HSE total 110,000 (65,000 directly employed). It would be nigh impossible to have an abenteesim rate of 100,000 staff in one month.

    The number of nurses employed by the HSE have dropped since 2009, not risen.

    Like I have said throughout this thread, get your facts right or take your inane ramblings and audacious claims elsewhere.


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    #2652
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    backspin. wrote: »
    43 is not the max, you missed the LSI and those are the 2018 figures you are quoting.

    45,703 is the max.

    You ignoring their allowances?

    https://inmo.ie/salary_information


    The LSI is another 3 years at the top yeah ? So after 14 years, they get 45,703. So 18 years after training to be a nurse, that's what midwives and staff nurses can achieve as a basic pay - 45,703. Its worse than I originally thought.

    I didn't ignore the allowances (I posted a link to the payscales that includes the allowances on the second page). The allowances are for extra qualifications and putting in more hours etc above the basic.
    jlm29 wrote: »
    They may not all start as CNMs, but there are many opportunities available for career progression for those that want them. From what I’ve seen, many nurses who do not move away from shift work at ward level choose this, because it suits their family life, childcare arrangements, etc.
    Postgraduate study is frequently funded by the hse, and promotions created to meet them when they get their postgrad certs.

    But Jim, the basic pay scale there tells you what nurses are getting in basic pay for say the first few years after qualifying up to 14 years. I accept that some will be promoted. Do you think you'd be able to afford a mortgage on it ? Would I do it ? Not a hope.


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    #2653
    brendanwalsh
    Registered Users Posts: 988 ✭✭✭brendanwalsh


    craggyjack wrote: »
    Qualification Entitlement/Allowance €2,791 per annum
    Dual Qualified Allowance €1,395 per annum
    Sunday Allowance Never heard of this!
    Sunday Premium Double time
    Night Duty Allowance Time and a quarter
    Unit Allowance If you mean location allowance, €1,858 per annum
    Nurse Coordinator Allowance Never heard of this!
    Specialist Coordinator Allowance Never heard of this!
    Community Allowance €4,962 - €5,911 per annum
    Nurse assigned to Occupational Therapy(Qualified) €3,732 per annum
    Nurse assigned to Occupational Therapy (Unqualified) €1,702 per annum

    Also, what is the overtime rate ? And is it the same for public holidays?Overtime is generally paid at time and a quarter, except when it is on night duty after midnight when it is double pay, Saturday after four hours at time and a quarter then double time.

    I have to say that Is a serious amount of basic salary top ups. No other public sector worker gets this or even private sector .
    Not to mention they also get travel expenses, they get fully paid Masters degrees and they get paid for the four year degree.
    Those numbers above are nearly a basic salary by itself.
    Double time to work nights and then they get a week holidays anyway after the week of nights! Where do I sign up?


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    #2654
    alloywheel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭alloywheel


    STB. wrote: »
    It would be nigh impossible to have an abenteesim rate of 100,000 staff in one month.

    Or even absenteeism?

    Thats not what I said. I said (and I quoted the source to back it up, the Examiner) ""A STARTLING 100,000 working days were lost in one month in the HSE due to absenteeism."
    That would not be the same as "an abenteesim rate of 100,000 staff in one month", which I did not say or claim.

    Yet again you do not get your facts right.


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    #2655
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    alloywheel wrote: »
    Or even absenteeism?

    Thats not what I said. I said (and I quoted the source to back it up, the Examiner) ""A STARTLING 100,000 working days were lost in one month in the HSE due to absenteeism."
    That would not be the same as "an abenteesim rate of 100,000 staff in one month", which I did not say or claim.

    Yet again you do not get your facts right.


    No you did say it, quite disparagingly too. 6th time its quoted to you. And you said it the context of nurses. Even if was the HSE, its a impossible figure to achieve with a lower workforce. Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers either. Some of it is written by guys with lower IQ's than you Mr Mensa.

    Originally Posted by alloywheel viewpost.gif
    If there was not 100,000 days a month lost to absenteeism it would help a lot. The slighest bit of a cold or a hangover or an ache and they are off. Even nurses themselves admit that.


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    #2656
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Some nurses I know work three nights a month and I think they get in and around a thousand euros after tax for this.They take on extra work such as giving injections on a mobile basis on their time off.

    One student nurse I know stays overnight with an elderly person for two nights a week, she gets 150 euros per night into her hand, that’s not bad for a twenty year old. I think student nurses can call themselves carers and some make a lot of money caring for elderly people during the day. The student nurses seem to have quite a bit of free time.


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    #2657
    alloywheel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭alloywheel


    STB. wrote: »
    If there was not 100,000 days a month lost to absenteeism it would help a lot. The slighest bit of a cold or a hangover or an ache and they are off. Even nurses themselves admit that.

    I actually wrote
    alloywheel wrote: »
    If there was not 100,000 days a month lost to absenteeism it would help a lot. The slighest bit of a cold or a hangover or an ache and they are off. Even nurses themselves admit that.

    That is entirely consistent with the quote I provided from the Examiner
    alloywheel wrote: »
    n.b Even if you just google "100,000 absenteeism in the HSE", the Examiner says "A STARTLING 100,000 working days were lost in one month in the HSE due to absenteeism."

    I also provided other quotes about the HSE. I think I may have hit a raw nerve about absenteeism in the HSE, there, are you one of those who were let go by the HSE for absenteeism? You would have to be pretty bad for that surely?

    Quote "Absenteeism in the HSE amounts to 10 days per worker in one year ".
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/yourview/absenteeism-in-the-hse-amounts-to-10-days-per-worker-in-one-year-309467.html


    Quote "The overall rate of absenteeism in the HSE in 2013 was 4.73pc – almost twice that of private companies."

    "The sick days are costing the health sector around €230m a year"

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/absenteeism-bill-erodes-hse-costcutting-30185829.html

    Quote: "More staff absences in health than any other sector"
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/more-staff-absences-in-health-than-any-other-sector-1.3466166?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fmore-staff-absences-in-health-than-any-other-sector-1.3466166

    And how come staff in the HSE get sicker than the staff in the NHS? Are they not as healthy?
    Quote "In 2016 recorded an absence rate across all workers in the ( NHS ) health sector of 3.5%."
    https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k2210
    How come in Ireland in the HSE it is between 4.5 and 5%?


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    #2658
    Mocadonna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mocadonna


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    It would be unfair to have nurses salaries brought in line with other health care workers and still get all the allowances, paid qualifications, overtime, and working nights to accumulate more time off.

    Exactly this. It would be taken as a slap in the face by the other health care workers in my opinion. Are there any other arguments for this apart from nurses having degrees? Genuinely would like to hear them.


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    #2659
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    Mocadonna wrote: »
    Exactly this. It would be taken as a slap in the face by the other health care workers in my opinion. Are there any other arguments for this apart from nurses having degrees? Genuinely would like to hear them.

    I would like to know what is a typical nurse on the max of the scale (€45,701) actually getting paid in a given year after all the allowances etc. Is it 50K, 52K, 57K or what?


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    #2660
    alloywheel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭alloywheel


    backspin. wrote: »
    I would like to know what is a typical nurse on the max of the scale (€45,701) actually getting paid in a given year after all the allowances etc. Is it 50K, 52K, 57K or what?


    I bet they will not come on here to say that. However, a quick google shows that in 2013 it was reported by the Examiner "Four staff nurses earned over €140,000 last year "https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/four-staff-nurses-earned-over-140000-last-year-229997.html
    Probably a bit more now?


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    #2661
    Mocadonna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mocadonna


    backspin. wrote: »
    I would like to know what is a typical nurse on the max of the scale (€45,701) actually getting paid in a given year after all the allowances etc. Is it 50K, 52K, 57K or what?

    Me too. I know that nurse posted her pay slip on twitter but it turns out it was on old one and hadn't got up to date allowances for all the qualifications/responsibilities that she listed. She admitted this herself in the Twitter comments. It's just more of this disingenuous stuff. I'd love to see a proper payslip with no agenda or spin and we can make up our own minds.

    If I was a nurse though I'd be careful not to denigrate or annoy the other HCPs too much during this... That could come back to bite very hard.


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    #2662
    hawkelady
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


    I see some nurses are currently working 24 non stop in certain hospitals because there isn’t anyone to hand over to because of the strike starting at 8am !!! And some on here saying nurses only look after themselves and are selfish !!! Well there’s a myth busted !!!


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    #2663
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    hawkelady wrote: »
    I see some nurses are currently working 24 non stop in certain hospitals because there isn’t anyone to hand over to because of the strike starting at 8am !!! And some on here saying nurses only look after themselves and are selfish !!! Well there’s a myth busted !!!

    Putting patients at risk no doubt.


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    #2664
    hawkelady
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Putting patients at risk no doubt.

    Or they could have went home after their 13 hr shift ..... but didn’t did they. Don’t think they can legally leave patients ... .. tough job , isn’t it. Also debunks other posters here saying they have it easy etc.


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    #2665
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    hawkelady wrote: »
    Or they could have went home after their 13 hr shift ..... but didn’t did they. Don’t think they can legally leave patients ... .. tough job , isn’t it. Also debunks other posters here saying they have it easy etc.

    But that’s because they are choosing to strike?


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    #2666
    Thephantomsmask
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭Thephantomsmask


    hawkelady wrote: »
    I see some nurses are currently working 24 non stop in certain hospitals because there isn’t anyone to hand over to because of the strike starting at 8am !!! And some on here saying nurses only look after themselves and are selfish !!! Well there’s a myth busted !!!

    We were told yesterday that there is a list of nurses kept at the picket lines ready to come in for emergencies because they would not put patients in danger. Where have they gone that they won't relieve their colleagues? Unless they don't want to relieve their SIPTU colleagues that didn't vote for strike action?


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    #2667
    jlm29
    Registered Users Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭jlm29


    hawkelady wrote: »
    I see some nurses are currently working 24 non stop in certain hospitals because there isn’t anyone to hand over to because of the strike starting at 8am !!! And some on here saying nurses only look after themselves and are selfish !!! Well there’s a myth busted !!!

    Sounds like the ones at the gate in that scenario are only looking after themselves and are selfish. I think that for the most part, there’s enough nurses worried about paying their bills in a couple of weeks that that isn’t happening.


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    #2668
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,336 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    hawkelady wrote: »
    I see some nurses are currently working 24 non stop in certain hospitals because there isn’t anyone to hand over to because of the strike starting at 8am !!! And some on here saying nurses only look after themselves and are selfish !!! Well there’s a myth busted !!!

    Ehm this literally proves how selfish the strikers are?


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    #2669
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭1641


    backspin. wrote: »
    I would like to know what is a typical nurse on the max of the scale (€45,701) actually getting paid in a given year after all the allowances etc. Is it 50K, 52K, 57K or what?
    STB. wrote: »
    The LSI is another 3 years at the top yeah ? So after 14 years, they get 45,703. So 18 years after training to be a nurse, that's what midwives and staff nurses can achieve as a basic pay - 45,703. Its worse than I originally thought.

    I didn't ignore the allowances (I posted a link to the payscales that includes the allowances on the second page). The allowances are for extra qualifications and putting in more hours etc above the basic..


    The allowances and premiums cannot be ignored or downplayed. I recall the nurses settled a previous dispute (maybe 10-12 years ago, I'm not sure) by way of increases in allowances - so as to avoid it been seen as a break in the pay agreement then. It is disingenuous of the union to claim they are not part of the equation.There are widespread allowances/premiums, not available to other grades, and are a part of the total remuneration package.


    I am not sure what a typical nurse actually is but the Pay Cpmmission found the following as regards average earnings for staff nurses/midwives :


    "The Commission found that the average earning for all HSE staff nurses and midwives (excluding all promotional grades) in 2017 was approximately €51,000 including allowances overtime and other payment".
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=18&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj8ifX2mKngAhVhShUIHeeACVMQFjARegQIDBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thejournal.ie%2Firish-healthcare-pay-rates-4218924-Sep2018%2F&usg=AOvVaw1peJt9T0hm8dGDfY4IwWfk


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    #2670
    alloywheel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭alloywheel


    Including part time workers?. Including full time nurses only another study found it was €57,000

    Either way nurses have well paid, secure, pensionable jobs. Interesting the study above found that "pay rates do not appear to be unduly affecting the number of nurses, midwives and doctors applying to work abroad”.


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    #2671
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    The telling thing of course here throughout this thread is the fg bots and stay at home chaps who make no contribution to soceity other than queue at the local dole office. The same chaps no doubt attempting to attribute headlines to nurses measured in hours from ten years ago.

    The truth in the matter is that this government have run all infrastructure down to nothing. Meanwhile Simon Harris was asleep at the wheel building a 2 billion euro hospital. The overspend would have paid for any type of pay gap for nurses.


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