Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

Buford T. Justice XIX · 21-01-2019 09:19PM

Starting to get down to the brass tacks now. There's talks about forming 6 regional Co-ops and buying factories or contracting killing. Shares are currently being talked about at €5-10k each.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/six-multimillion-beef-plan-co-ops-proposed-433317

charolais0153 · 22-01-2019 01:12PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Starting to get down to the brass tacks now. There's talks about forming 6 regional Co-ops and buying factories or contracting killing. Shares are currently being talked about at €5-10k each.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/six-multimillion-beef-plan-co-ops-proposed-433317

a bit more expensive than the 10er at the start

Buford T. Justice XIX · 22-01-2019 01:38PM

charolais0153 wrote: »

a bit more expensive than the 10er at the start

That was always going to be the case, I would have thought?

K9 · 22-01-2019 01:55PM

Would they not be better of to just concentrate setting up purchasing groups in different counties and taking it from there.

wrangler · 22-01-2019 02:55PM

K9 wrote: »

Would they not be better of to just concentrate setting up purchasing groups in different counties and taking it from there.

It's not really worth all the effort just to set up purchasing groups, discount on inputs is only a help, it's not going to make the difference of survival or not.
This move to sell their own beef will test the strength of the support and, more to the point, tell them whether to waste any more time on it.
After all farmers can buy in on any level it seems.

alps · 22-01-2019 03:02PM

K9 wrote: »

Would they not be better of to just concentrate setting up purchasing groups in different counties and taking it from there.

Purchasing groups need stringent structure, and complete buy-in from its members. Buy in in terms of confidentiality, honesty in dealings, and on the button payment.

My view is that they an only ever work with a previously connected core as its start up. They need to be tidy in numbers and geographically beneficial for suppliers and very well administered.

Otherwise they can only be a discount provider, and in that matter, the question will always be, a discount from what....?

_Brian · 22-01-2019 03:17PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Starting to get down to the brass tacks now. There's talks about forming 6 regional Co-ops and buying factories or contracting killing. Shares are currently being talked about at €5-10k each.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/six-multimillion-beef-plan-co-ops-proposed-433317

Wonder what you get for your €10k ?

K9 · 22-01-2019 03:24PM

alps wrote: »

Purchasing groups need stringent structure, and complete buy-in from its members. Buy in in terms of confidentiality, honesty in dealings, and on the button payment.

My view is that they an only ever work with a previously connected core as its start up. They need to be tidy in numbers and geographically beneficial for suppliers and very well administered.

Otherwise they can only be a discount provider, and in that matter, the question will always be, a discount from what....?

Sorry meant to say for selling to factories as well. If that can’t work, would setting up 6 co-ops work?

_Brian · 22-01-2019 03:42PM

The minute you mention €2million there a cnut somewhere rubbing his hands and making plans.

Be serious work to keep things on straight and narrow.

There would quickly be a need to have serious business heads on board, now money will start bleeding out in costs, expenses and wages.
Transparency and accountability will be key to ongoing support. A number of chaps drawing €50k plus salaries will test support pretty quick and yet nothing will happen otherwise.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 22-01-2019 04:45PM

_Brian wrote: »

Wonder what you get for your €10k ?

You get membership and voting rights in the co-op for that. And the right to have your cattle processed under whatever processing agreement is arrived at.

You will also have a right to partial ownership of any fixed assets such as processing plants bought and reopened, depending on how it's structured.

Those figures seem to be opening figures, there's talk later in the article of 1k to 2k shares being an option rather than 10k shares.

Zeebsisgone654 · 22-01-2019 05:04PM

Anyone know why setup 6 coops, would not one coop be a stronger entity ?

patsy_mccabe · 22-01-2019 05:27PM

There's a belief out there that the factories are making massive margins on each animal. If that's not the case, and margins are in fact very tight, then setting up of these COOPs is a waste of time.
It would be like setting up an airline trying to tap into Ryanair's profits. Companies are usually successful because they have cut everything to the bone (pardon the pun) and run very lean operations.

_Brian · 22-01-2019 05:30PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

You get membership and voting rights in the co-op for that. And the right to have your cattle processed under whatever processing agreement is arrived at.

You will also have a right to partial ownership of any fixed assets such as processing plants bought and reopened, depending on how it's structured.

Those figures seem to be opening figures, there's talk later in the article of 1k to 2k shares being an option rather than 10k shares.

Will tie €10 members have the right to have cattle processed ?

coolshannagh28 · 22-01-2019 05:38PM

I would imagine margins are very tight , the beef barons are rich because they process hundreds of thousands of cattle a year individually , they sell it on cheap to the UK multiples ; there is possibly space for the BPM to look higher up that market and create margin and outsource the processing if that was possible. Many variables here , the way Brexit is heading it could be best to hold fire before investing big money

Buford T. Justice XIX · 22-01-2019 06:08PM

_Brian wrote: »

Will tie €10 members have the right to have cattle processed ?

No, that money was just fundraising to hold meetings and admin for WhatsApp groups, I imagine.

The co-op set up is a very different process and won't be done overnight. That'll have to go through ICOS and set up rules and structures for it before they can look for membership iirc.

older by the day · 22-01-2019 06:41PM

It will difficult to see guys part time, with twenty cows, handing 5 or 10 thousand to buy shares in a meat factory, last time I bought shares was in eircom, that didn't go great. With brexit and climate change, super market cartels, having to find new marketing to stand out from what's there all ready. The eircom shares purchase don't sound to bad now

alps · 22-01-2019 06:57PM

K9 wrote: »

Sorry meant to say for selling to factories as well. If that can’t work, would setting up 6 co-ops work?

It wouldn't be right of me to say K9 as I havnt been to the meetings, but I would say that the amount of money spoken about is a massive amount of money for any farmer to hand over to anyone, especially without any track record in this business, and with the knowledge that many have tried and failed.

Co-ops or group selling can and does work (as Wrangler explained earlier) but don't underestimate the importance of sticking together in these models, and that I'm afraid has often been farmers downfall.

Bass Reeves · 22-01-2019 11:52PM

I called into the meeting tonight in Killmallock. I think it is very much a suckler focused group. Having said that they had a few very interesting speakers. There was a lad from Kilkenny doing rose veal. He was marketing at present to Hotels and specialist retailers. However he had sold some to Belgium. The meat he sold was grain fed but they were hoping because it was Irish that it would be grass fed. He is looking into the economics of it. He is looking into the production of it . He was saying HO friesians were the most suitable and about 4.2/ kg was about what the market pays. His calves killed about 195 kgs DW.

There was two meat wholesalers. Neither could deal with the processors. One had been dealing with them. He was supplying into high end Hotels and Food Halls in Asia but quality was too variable often because processors seemed unwilling to hang meat more than a day or two. He commented as well that Gordan Ramsey had a restaurant I think in Hong Kong that was doing an Irish Hereford sirloin but stopped because of variable quality of the product.
The other lad was the wholesalers that wanted to supply the Chinese market. While the price may seem high he want grass fed beef. From listening to him and the other two speakers there seems to be a market for grass fed beef we are not tapping into whether it is in Asia or in Europe. The processors seem to be into selling our QA hormone free beef as a commodity product. There seems a reluctance to brand it. However I think the main focus is on sucklers by the organization

Siamsa Sessions · 23-01-2019 01:32PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

From listening to him and the other two speakers there seems to be a market for grass fed beef we are not tapping into whether it is in Asia or in Europe. The processors seem to be into selling our QA hormone free beef as a commodity product. There seems a reluctance to brand it.

I was at a social event on Monday night and the speaker was an "ex business executive" (no names or people may take a dislike). He was asked from the floor why beef wasn't given a brand like dairy products similar to Dairygold, etc.

He said he didn't know, but the brand at the moment seems to be no more than "Irish beef". That being the case, he said, what does "Irish" mean to consumers where our processors currently sell beef?

That was just one of the points he made, but overall, I got the sense that any product in the food/drinks game is nothing until it has a brand and is marketed properly.

Farmer · 23-01-2019 05:56PM

I wonder is it that a lot of our beef gets sold under supermarkets' own brand so there is no room for double branding

dzer2 · 23-01-2019 06:05PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I called into the meeting tonight in Killmallock. I think it is very much a suckler focused group. Having said that they had a few very interesting speakers. There was a lad from Kilkenny doing rose veal. He was marketing at present to Hotels and specialist retailers. However he had sold some to Belgium. The meat he sold was grain fed but they were hoping because it was Irish that it would be grass fed. He is looking into the economics of it. He is looking into the production of it . He was saying HO friesians were the most suitable and about 4.2/ kg was about what the market pays. His calves killed about 195 kgs DW.

There was two meat wholesalers. Neither could deal with the processors. One had been dealing with them. He was supplying into high end Hotels and Food Halls in Asia but quality was too variable often because processors seemed unwilling to hang meat more than a day or two. He commented as well that Gordan Ramsey had a restaurant I think in Hong Kong that was doing an Irish Hereford sirloin but stopped because of variable quality of the product.
The other lad was the wholesalers that wanted to supply the Chinese market. While the price may seem high he want grass fed beef. From listening to him and the other two speakers there seems to be a market for grass fed beef we are not tapping into whether it is in Asia or in Europe. The processors seem to be into selling our QA hormone free beef as a commodity product. There seems a reluctance to brand it. However I think the main focus is on sucklers by the organization

Hi Bass

As one of the original producer group that set up the rose veal. That lad in Kk wouldn't touch our cattle. I was producing 120 HD a yr. The finished carcass weight needed to be over 210kgs and under 240.
We bought the calves at 15 to 20 day old a bag a milk replacer. The cattle were metal fed with either straw, hay or maize silage. Anything under 210 kgs would break even. At the time we were getting 4.10 euro.

wrangler · 23-01-2019 06:07PM

Farmer wrote: »

I wonder is it that a lot of our beef gets sold under supermarkets' own brand so there is no room for double branding

Should be all labelled as Irish....labels mightn't be too big though and then we have the QA label.
I don't think labelling outside Ireland would be a help, might even be a hindrance.
Supermarket choice as to whether it goes on the top or bottom shelf

K9 · 23-01-2019 06:14PM

dzer2 wrote: »

Hi Bass

As one of the original producer group that set up the rose veal. That lad in Kk wouldn't touch our cattle. I was producing 120 HD a yr. The finished carcass weight needed to be over 210kgs and under 240.
We bought the calves at 15 to 20 day old a bag a milk replacer. The cattle were metal fed with either straw, hay or maize silage. Anything under 210 kgs would break even. At the time we were getting 4.10 euro.

How much meal a day would they be fed and what age would they be slaughtered at?

Say my name · 23-01-2019 06:33PM

wrangler wrote: »

Should be all labelled as Irish....labels mightn't be too big though and then we have the QA label.
I don't think labelling outside Ireland would be a help, might even be a hindrance.
Supermarket choice as to whether it goes on the top or bottom shelf

It should be all labelled with the sire breed and the dam breed and age of animal.
Consumers wouldn't be long becoming Connoisseurs and producers wouldn't be long producing what the consumer requires. Rather than the lucky dip of looking for marbling in the freezers.
And others complaining of beef as tough as leather with gallons of gravy required to soften it up.

dzer2 · 23-01-2019 06:33PM

They would eat a tonne of meal in the initial stage 18 percent ration and in the last 14 weeks 16 percent. Normally killed at 46 to 49 weeks

Farmer · 23-01-2019 06:36PM

Ballymore tonight at 8

Here's the rest of the list from
beefplan.Ie

UPCOMING MEETINGS
Sligo, Leitrim : Ballymote Mart - Jan 23rd, 8:00pm

Meath, Louth, Dublin : Ardboyne Hotel, Navan - Jan 24th 8:30pm

Galway : Ard Ri Hotel, Tuam - Jan 28th 8:00pm

Monaghan : Glencairn Hotel, Castleblaney - Jan 30th 8:00pm

Kerry : Castleisland Mart, - Feb 4th 7:30pm

Wicklow : Arklow Bay Hotel, Arklow - Feb 5th 8:00pm

Mayo : Mayo Sligo Mart Ballina - Feb 6th 8:00pm

Carlow : Dolmen Hotel, Feb 7th, 8:00pm

Roscommon : Elphin Mart, Feb 21st, 8:00pm

dzer2 · 23-01-2019 06:42PM

Say my name wrote: »

wrangler wrote: »

Should be all labelled as Irish....labels mightn't be too big though and then we have the QA label.
I don't think labelling outside Ireland would be a help, might even be a hindrance.
Supermarket choice as to whether it goes on the top or bottom shelf

It should be all labelled with the sire breed and the dam breed and age of animal.
Consumers wouldn't be long becoming Connoisseurs and producers wouldn't be long producing what the consumer requires. Rather than the lucky dip of looking for marbling in the freezers.
And others complaining of beef as tough as leather with gallons of gravy required to soften it up.

Went for a meal in Austria last week. Had a steak wasn't sold by weight just by type.
Price ranged from 22 euro to 34. The steak was 90mm round easily 35mm high. I wasn't given a steak knife to cut it either. The quality and taste were top notch. Stayed in an apartment over a farmhouse the farmer 13 cows and 3 replacement at 2 yr old and 4 weanlings. He gave us a tour of the place. All his fodder was saved with a small forage wagon. He had machinery up to the value of 300k. He wasn't in partnership with any other Landowners I'm the area.

Bass Reeves · 23-01-2019 07:19PM

dzer2 wrote: »

Hi Bass

As one of the original producer group that set up the rose veal. That lad in Kk wouldn't touch our cattle. I was producing 120 HD a yr. The finished carcass weight needed to be over 210kgs and under 240.
We bought the calves at 15 to 20 day old a bag a milk replacer. The cattle were metal fed with either straw, hay or maize silage. Anything under 210 kgs would break even. At the time we were getting 4.10 euro.

All I can tell you is what he said at the meeting last night. He is of the opinion that there is a demand for grass fed rose veal. He gave a price for O2 grading rose veal bulls of 4.2/kg. They would be slaughtered at the 7 month stage from August to October/November. He said his calves were averaging 195DW. That would mean these bulls coming into 820 euro at a LW of 400-430kgs. The hardest part would be fat cover especially later in the year. I imagine you would be feeding ration at grass from start of year. On the plus side you have minimum nitrates but the animal would want to be going full tilt from the day it was born. The other issue would be meat colour IMO as it would more than likly be as red as normal beef.

_Brian · 23-01-2019 07:38PM

Was thinking today and with the whole Brexit mess why would the Beef plan start investing money into a project where Brittan is the market ??

dzer2 · 23-01-2019 07:59PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

dzer2 wrote: »

Hi Bass

As one of the original producer group that set up the rose veal. That lad in Kk wouldn't touch our cattle. I was producing 120 HD a yr. The finished carcass weight needed to be over 210kgs and under 240.
We bought the calves at 15 to 20 day old a bag a milk replacer. The cattle were metal fed with either straw, hay or maize silage. Anything under 210 kgs would break even. At the time we were getting 4.10 euro.

All I can tell you is what he said at the meeting last night. He is of the opinion that there is a demand for grass fed rose veal. He gave a price for O2 grading rose veal bulls of 4.2/kg. They would be slaughtered at the 7 month stage from August to October/November. He said his calves were averaging 195DW. That would mean these bulls coming into 820 euro at a LW of 400-430kgs. The hardest part would be fat cover especially later in the year. I imagine you would be feeding ration at grass from start of year. On the plus side you have minimum nitrates but the animal would want to be going full tilt from the day it was born. The other issue would be meat colour IMO as it would more than likly be as red as normal beef.

Veal is sold as white meat and to kill at that weight at that age they would have to be hiding a month or two before they were registered. Also veal has little to no marbling in it. One lad in the scheme was I'll for a while an a neighbour fed his cattle for 3 weeks and the factory were able to tell him the cattle were fed silage.

Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

Comments