Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

bogman_bass

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If you look at supermarket space allotted to beef in any supermarket mince only takes up 20-30% of the space give even that it turns over faster than roasts and steakes it is hard to see total turnover being higher than 50%. Butchers even allot less space to mince.

But the vast majority of the forequarter never sees the butchers counter. It’s gone into manufacturing.
People eat a lot of mince they just don’t buy it as mince.

It’s burgers or lasagne or a hundred other products.

Willfarman

Great work there bass. That took a lot of effort that excelled most of the poor attempts at broaching the subject by the farming press.

Albert Johnson

A big +1 on Willfarmer's comments above. It's always interesting to interpret the figures involved in the various parts of the production system. Much of the journalism metered out by the farming media leaves much to be desired when it comes to the actual facts and figures involved.

I think it's of vital importance that we as primary producers educate ourselves as to the workings of the entire production chain. This knowledge would help to create greater trust and allow all parties to develop reasonable expectations of what is expected of each other. At the moment everything beyond the factory gate is kept top secret and a lot of lads seem to believe the setting of the beef price is a weekly mix of guess work and black magic. It's only by understanding how the other side lives that we can hope to achieve success.

My biggest fear for the beef movement and any subsequent organization is that they try to divide rather than unite. From my limited exposure to the group in question it seems to increasingly become a "them versus us" issue. As I've said before shouting into microphones and comparing the factories efforts to taking up where Cromwell left off will not put more money into farmers pockets.

A more civilised and forward thinking approach is needed in my opinion, reversing the decline is a mammoth task but is not outside the bounds of possibility. My views are my own but I do believe that the wrong people are drawn to the upper levels of these groups, we badly need a Cormac Healy type figure to represent the silent majority.

charolais0153

Albert Johnson wrote: »

A big +1 on Willfarmer's comments above. It's always interesting to interpret the figures involved in the various parts of the production system. Much of the journalism metered out by the farming media leaves much to be desired when it comes to the actual facts and figures involved.

I think it's of vital importance that we as primary producers educate ourselves as to the workings of the entire production chain. This knowledge would help to create greater trust and allow all parties to develop reasonable expectations of what is expected of each other. At the moment everything beyond the factory gate is kept top secret and a lot of lads seem to believe the setting of the beef price is a weekly mix of guess work and black magic. It's only by understanding how the other side lives that we can hope to achieve success.

My biggest fear for the beef movement and any subsequent organization is that they try to divide rather than unite. From my limited exposure to the group in question it seems to increasingly become a "them versus us" issue. As I've said before shouting into microphones and comparing the factories efforts to taking up where Cromwell left off will not put more money into farmers pockets.

A more civilised and forward thinking approach is needed in my opinion, reversing the decline is a mammoth task but is not outside the bounds of possibility. My views are my own but I do believe that the wrong people are drawn to the upper levels of these groups, we badly need a Cormac Healy type figure to represent the silent majority.

One can only imagine the money he is on and the last time a member of a farming organisation was on big money there was uproar;)

Albert Johnson

charolais0153 wrote: »

One can only imagine the money he is on and the last time a member of a farming organisation was on big money there was uproar;)

I agree that finding a means to pay such a figure would prove problematic, it would no doubt be everyone else's responsibility as is one of our biggest failings as a sector. However if the proposed Messiah delivered some worthwhile results they could be seen as value for money.

My biggest gripe with the last member of a farming organisation and there handsome pay package was there underhanded attempts to conceal said wage while delivering sweet f@ck all to the majority!. Begrudging anyone something they have earned is counterproductive but being outraged at someone taking excessive payment for a poor service is fair game.

I'm not looking to start a representation bashing thread, there's lots of lads at that every day and nothing changes. Much of what I comment must look like a wish for some sort of George Orwell type Utopia where the silent majority overcome the tyrannical overloads. Maybe I am that deluded but surely there's bound to be a happy medium where farmers can continue to fulfill the role they have played for millenia without losing there proverbial shirt in the process?

Bass Reeves

charolais0153 wrote: »

One can only imagine the money he is on and the last time a member of a farming organisation was on big money there was uproar;)

But he was not on big money to represent farmers. He was on big money for fixing IFA financial issues. He developed a few project that solved financial problems that IFA had. He was no Messiah. However he had all of the upper echlons in thrall and then whipped out a large amount out of the pension fund to take his own pension outside of the fund. Because of the timing of this he seems to have put the whole fund under stress. He then continued to extract massive wage rises by keeping the upper echlons in thrall. I wonder is he on the same money now. He was really only a bang average administrator.

When you look at the way he left the structures of the IFA as an organization they are well rid of him. When you are organization that is funded by membership in a way paid offices should be invisible. In good organizations like the GAA and the IRFU paid full time officials are invisible.

CloughCasey1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

But he was not on big money to represent farmers. He was on big money for fixing IFA financial issues. He developed a few project that solved financial problems that IFA had. He was no Messiah. However he had all of the upper echlons in thrall and then whipped out a large amount out of the pension fund to take his own pension outside of the fund. Because of the timing of this he seems to have put the whole fund under stress. He then continued to extract massive wage rises by keeping the upper echlons in thrall. I wonder is he on the same money now. He was really only a bang average administrator.

When you look at the way he left the structures of the IFA as an organization they are well rid of him. When you are organization that is funded by membership in a way paid offices should be invisible. In good organizations like the GAA and the IRFU paid full time officials are invisible.

You forgot John Delaney and the FAI. ; )
Empty barrells make the most noise.

Bass Reeves

Willfarman wrote: »

Great work there bass. That took a lot of effort that excelled most of the poor attempts at broaching the subject by the farming press.

TBH a lot of it is only simple maths. Admittedly I have an interest in the subject. I am lucky in that I have a fairly good memory so can recall facts and figures. Most of the rest is only looking around and being able to sort wheat from chaff.

BB posted a bit about manufacturing beef. First thing is most of this is catered by the cow beef sector. There is premium and 2nd grade manufacturing beef. Most lower priced cow beef would fill the 2nd grade. The big question is it possible to extract higher prices for other parts of the trade. Most U30 month beef forequarter goes into the premium mince trade whether as burgers for McDonald's and Superman's or mince for Tesco's. Maybe we should protest outside McDonald's rather than Tesco's. But then they have no trollys to chain together.

Another about the burger trade Larry is no longer involved after he had to sell the processing units involved in producing burgers was it for Burger King because of a bit of horsemeat in them. He has found other outlets for this forequarter beef

wrangler

Albert Johnson wrote: »

I agree that finding a means to pay such a figure would prove problematic, it would no doubt be everyone else's responsibility as is one of our biggest failings as a sector. However if the proposed Messiah delivered some worthwhile results they could be seen as value for money.

My biggest gripe with the last member of a farming organisation and there handsome pay package was there underhanded attempts to conceal said wage while delivering sweet f@ck all to the majority!. Begrudging anyone something they have earned is counterproductive but being outraged at someone taking excessive payment for a poor service is fair game.

I'm not looking to start a representation bashing thread, there's lots of lads at that every day and nothing changes. Much of what I comment must look like a wish for some sort of George Orwell type Utopia where the silent majority overcome the tyrannical overloads. Maybe I am that deluded but surely there's bound to be a happy medium where farmers can continue to fulfill the role they have played for millenia without losing there proverbial shirt in the process?

If we have such poor representation, why can I get my land lease money tax free, why can I draw a contributory old age pension with minimal payments , why are we being paid 1.6bn through various schemes when there's a lot more deserving cases out there, why were good farmers able to hold on to most of there entitlements when the odds were stacked against them for the last 2 or 3 CAP REFORMS, Why was the whole motorway CPO process turned on it's head in 2005 to give farmers a fairer deal in the 2005 - 2010 developement plan
Farm transfers with only nominal tax......you're like the family that spent the night in the police station , they said that the government had nothing for them and then it was discovered that she was getting €70000 social welfare..
It might surprise you to know that there are a lot of people out there that need public funds more than farmers

Like in other organisations the irish are too willing to stand back and let a few do the work and then plough in with criticism.
My mistake was to trust our treasurer, a farmer

Bass Reeves

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

You forgot John Delaney and the FAI. ; )
Empty barrells make the most noise.

No I didn't JD is a full time paid administrator that I was talking about. Too visible in a member subscribed organization

Albert Johnson

In reply to wranglers post above I guessed that a mention of the IFA (though not by myself) would be enough to bring you into the debate.

I would agree that certain things that were lobbied for by the IFA such as nominal tax on farm transfers and ensuring the continuation of EU funding are integral to Irish agriculture. Other measures such as tax free leasing and in relation to the old age pension are of no concern to me at the minute but are at least options for others.

I also never said that we had poor or otherwise representation only aired my views on where it could possibly be improved. Please don't liken me to the social welfare brigade it's unnecessary and uncalled for in this instance. I understand your history with a certain organisation but at this stage it's sounding like school children arguing over which power ranger is best.

It wouldn't at all surprise me that there are groups out there that are in much more dire straights than us farmers. The homeless for example and perhaps even the nurses and other front line workers.

I agree 100% that it's very hard to gain much support in this country regardless of your pedigree. It's one of my main fears for the newest representation group. They could learn a lot from the IFA and other more established organisations.

I try to see the good in everything, the IFA included and despite the fact that I would never have any correspondence with them if at all possible I try to practice the approach of live and let live. For example the Nazi's gave the world Fanta orange so nothing can be all bad I suppose. I aim to keep the same opinion of many organisations both farming and non farming in this world.

wrangler

Albert Johnson wrote: »

In reply to wranglers post above I guessed that a mention of the IFA (though not by myself) would be enough to bring you into the debate.

I would agree that certain things that were lobbied for by the IFA such as nominal tax on farm transfers and ensuring the continuation of EU funding are integral to Irish agriculture. Other measures such as tax free leasing and in relation to the old age pension are of no concern to me at the minute but are at least options for others.

I also never said that we had poor or otherwise representation only aired my views on where it could possibly be improved. Please don't liken me to the social welfare brigade it's unnecessary and uncalled for in this instance. I understand your history with a certain organisation but at this stage it's sounding like school children arguing over which power ranger is best.

It wouldn't at all surprise me that there are groups out there that are in much more dire straights than us farmers. The homeless for example and perhaps even the nurses and other front line workers.

I agree 100% that it's very hard to gain much support in this country regardless of your pedigree. It's one of my main fears for the newest representation group. They could learn a lot from the IFA and other more established organisations.

I try to see the good in everything, the IFA included and despite the fact that I would never have any correspondence with them if at all possible I try to practice the approach of live and let live. For example the Nazi's gave the world Fanta orange so nothing can be all bad I suppose. I aim to keep the same opinion of many organisations both farming and non farming in this world.

For anyone to deliver anything out of the budget for a group that has diminishing political clout is an achievement, Political parties will earn more votes easier in any other sector.
Maybe you're not benefitting from pension or tax concessions but
if you're farming properly you're probably benefiting from being left with most of your entitlements which, in my case any way, is worth more than a mickey mouse price rise.
Very hard to know where there's an opportunity to deliver for farmers, maybe the BPM will turn them into hard sellers, Purchasing groups isn't exactly groundbreaking, Buywayz went to the wall even though it had similar management to IFA TELECOM which brings in a nice bit of revenue to Farm Centre

Bass Reeves

IMO producer groups at finishing level are about our only chance. With the change in EU thinking on them it would allow them to bypass the current thinking of the Competition Authority. Within 2-3 years it would force forward pricing which would allow winter finishers especially to make economic decisions before filling sheds or starting intensive feeding periods. Producer groups would also highlight anti competitive way at the moment that processors use there own and contracted feedlots.

But there is serious resistance by IFA in particular to the EU rules being legislated for. Until a farm organisation takes up he mantle to push for these we will see little or no change. This idea that individual farmers can be hard sellers with 20, 50, 100 or more cattle a year is delusional. The concept of holding back cattle is delusional as well. Negotiating with processors is not like negotiating with employers where if a deal is struck it sticks.

The ink would be barely dry on it and individual factory procurement manager would be finding ways to undermine it. They would target smaller producers first with smaller numbers as they would be less likely to get support if they complain. They would target certain spec's of cattle and whisper about market forces. Could finishers start a closedown again. Also withdrawal of supplies puts all the hardship and cost of it on finishers. To recover some of that cost they would have to reduce what they pay in mart for cattle. Store and suckler men would see a higher margin in finishing there own cattle so this could not happen

Albert Johnson

wrangler wrote: »

For anyone to deliver anything out of the budget for a group that has diminishing political clout is an achievement, Political parties will earn more votes easier in any other sector.
Maybe you're not benefitting from pension or tax concessions but
if you're farming properly you're probably benefiting from being left with most of your entitlements which, in my case any way, is worth more than a mickey mouse price rise.
Very hard to know where there's an opportunity to deliver for farmers, maybe the BPM will turn them into hard sellers, Purchasing groups isn't exactly groundbreaking, Buywayz went to the wall even though it had similar management to IFA TELECOM which brings in a nice bit of revenue to Farm Centre

Farming is becoming the poor relation as regards politics, an increasing urban/rural divide means the majority have little understanding or interest in our state of affairs. One only has to observe Leo Varadkars latest plan to solve our carbon emissions by eating less meat to see how out of touch many are with the sector. As this trend progresses it will only become more difficult for our lobby groups to achieve anything of note.

I may not be currently benefiting from the pension or tax concessions but even I'm not sufficiently self centered to disagree that they are of benefit to many. It's good to have a range of options and the IFA to there credit have delivered repeatedly in these areas.

A Mickey mouse price rise won't save anyone but it could be a possible first step. Entitlement values may be currently financing many operations but CAP 2020 is only around the corner, a redistribution or otherwise could shake a lot of lads set ups. In my own personal case for the bit of farming that I carry out any gains achieved by any group would have a marginal effect regardless.

I once again agree that some proposed measures such as purchasing groups aren't exactly up there with reinventing the wheel. However for a myriad of reasons they have had only limited success in the past, I wouldn't know where to start with changing the above but it's worth investigating.

Another possibility that I'm very interested in is producer groups or some other form of unification. I listen in awe at times at what can be achieved with similar sheep groups and think of what we as beef men as missing out on. Nothing is ever that simple and it takes sometimes trojan effort by many but I believe such effort would be rewarded.

The BPM has along way to go yet but perhaps it may serve the changing needs of the beef sector as a whole. The status quo that has existed in recent decades of being simply price takers is coming under increased pressure as this price is loss making. Nothing is going to be done for us unless we do it ourselves, here lies the number one hurdle the BPM or similar will face, that being gaining sufficient helpful support.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

IMO producer groups at finishing level are about our only chance. With the change in EU thinking on them it would allow them to bypass the current thinking of the Competition Authority. Within 2-3 years it would force forward pricing which would allow winter finishers especially to make economic decisions before filling sheds or starting intensive feeding periods. Producer groups would also highlight anti competitive way at the moment that processors use there own and contracted feedlots.

But there is serious resistance by IFA in particular to the EU rules being legislated for. Until a farm organisation takes up he mantle to push for these we will see little or no change. This idea that individual farmers can be hard sellers with 20, 50, 100 or more cattle a year is delusional. The concept of holding back cattle is delusional as well. Negotiating with processors is not like negotiating with employers where if a deal is struck it sticks.

The ink would be barely dry on it and individual factory procurement manager would be finding ways to undermine it. They would target smaller producers first with smaller numbers as they would be less likely to get support if they complain. They would target certain spec's of cattle and whisper about market forces. Could finishers start a closedown again. Also withdrawal of supplies puts all the hardship and cost of it on finishers. To recover some of that cost they would have to reduce what they pay in mart for cattle. Store and suckler men would see a higher margin in finishing there own cattle so this could not happen

I can only regard legislation to force an industry to negotiate as a blatant liberty. everyone should be allowed conduct their business without interference, I might think different if those that run this country didn't make such a hash of everything and as you know I don't mean the politicians.
Is the beef forums record not an example of why not to let them interfere

patsy_mccabe

Tipp meeting tonight. (Maybe the MODs could embed this).

wrangler

This will test their ''support'', this is the only way that they'll be sure of their figures.
I've said it here often enough, that they should try selling the stuff.
I invested in a farmer owned factory years ago, I won't be doing it again

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/beef/beef-plan-movement-looking-to-raise-2m-to-produce-and-market-own-beef-37716096.html

farawaygrass

What was the downfall of that farmer owned factory? Was there a manager hired in to run it or the committee that set it up?

alps

Farmers reps or farmers coops cannot run meat factories. It is not in their nature to be brutal and callous enough in their dealings with staff and suppliers. History in this area is dismal....

€5000 euro shares, derelict factories....this trip is taking a strange turn

farawaygrass

alps wrote: »

Farmers reps or farmers coops cannot run meat factories. It is not in their nature to be brutal and callous enough in their dealings with staff and suppliers. History in this area is dismal....

€5000 euro shares, derelict factories....this trip is taking a strange turn

Why can they run milk processing plants? What’s the difference?

patsy_mccabe

I was slow to hand over a €10.......without a receipt, by the way.

jaymla627

alps wrote: »

Farmers reps or farmers coops cannot run meat factories. It is not in their nature to be brutal and callous enough in their dealings with staff and suppliers. History in this area is dismal....

€5000 euro shares, derelict factories....this trip is taking a strange turn

Sounds like a Ponzi scheme, this middle-man with the Chinese buyers is fairly iffy, given billion dollar food companies regularly get stung dealing with that country how would a small producer group fair, their would be container loads of meat shipped that a cent wouldn’t be got for....

wrangler

farawaygrass wrote: »

What was the downfall of that farmer owned factory? Was there a manager hired in to run it or the committee that set it up?

It was very susoect at the time, they got millions in grants and then sold it and wouldn't divulge the name of the buyer...... there was a committee, I don't know how they let it go so bad, there was two factories at one time in Leixlip and Cork. They treated the workers badly too, no redundancy.
So farmers can be as bad as beef barons

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

I can only regard legislation to force an industry to negotiate as a blatant liberty. everyone should be allowed conduct their business without interference, I might think different if those that run this country didn't make such a hash of everything and as you know I don't mean the politicians.
Is the beef forums record not an example of why not to let them interfere

It is more legislation to correct the imbalance between Processors/retailers and farmers. No business is allowed to conduct there business with out regulation. We farmers have to observe regulation, as do all business's from pubs to nursing homes. The Competition authority has allowed 3 processors to control 70%+ of the beef trade what is wrong scale being allowed on the other side. In every other industry except Agriculture business know months in advance there sale price. Bachelors do not sell beans t Dunnes without an advance price 3-4 months in advance, Kellogs the same why should farmer be any different.

patsy_mccabe

jaymla627 wrote: »

Sounds like a Ponzi scheme, this middle-man with the Chinese buyers is fairly iffy, given billion dollar food companies regularly get stung dealing with that country how would a small producer group fair, their would be container loads of meat shipped that a cent wouldn’t be got for....

If a guy is willing to pay €5/kg for beef when it is trading at €3.75, then that tells you all you need to know.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is more legislation to correct the imbalance between Processors/retailers and farmers. No business is allowed to conduct there business with out regulation. We farmers have to observe regulation, as do all business's from pubs to nursing homes. The Competition authority has allowed 3 processors to control 70%+ of the beef trade what is wrong scale being allowed on the other side. In every other industry except Agriculture business know months in advance there sale price. Bachelors do not sell beans t Dunnes without an advance price 3-4 months in advance, Kellogs the same why should farmer be any different.

Do you not think that it's that both parties insist on a contract, Farmers can insist on a contract all they like but while factories are able to get supplies from other farmers on their own terms why should they bother. I doubt there's any legislation forcing dunnes or batchelors to negotiate contracts

wrangler

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I was slow to hand over a €10.......without a receipt, by the way.

They're doing nothing, if they want the other organisations out of the way they should outperform them not host a whingefest against them.
They're not marking Brexit in any way, yet they want the organisation that is marking it out of the way.....

ppn

My understanding is that Beef Plan Movement wants to rally as many Beef farmers as possible with an initial aim of 40,000 members (out of a possible 70-80,000+ beef farmers?)
They seem to be putting together county by county purchasing groups at present to lower input costs for members - fertiliser, fuel, meal - all very welcome.
I'm not sure that any organisation in its infancy, with currently approximately 15000 members we are told - less than 40% of its goal, can be expected to make immediate inroads against big business (meat factories and retail), otherwise you are not representing the majority of your base.
Maybe when they have 50%, 60%, 70% of beef farmers onboard, factories, Bord Bia, et. al will begin to take notice and realise that beef farmers aren't prepared to go down without a fight. There is a lot of anger out there and the last time I looked, the Angus or Hereford mince, steak, etc. isn't selling for nothing in the supermarkets, as many would have you believe, not to mention the restaurant business. Lads finishing dairy based beef can't even get the base price with O and P grades dominating.
Was it Teagasc that said recently (I can't find the article so I stand to be corrected) that Brexit could be a good thing for Irish dairy farmers as it could free up a lot of land, presumably, or obviously for that matter, at the expense of the defunct beef farmer in a worst case scenario?
We have a high quality largely grass-based product that should be marketed more effectively as such and seems to be well appreciated in the UK - our biggest customer (at the present time.....). Compare that to the factory feedlots, hormone-boosted US beef and climate change inducing South American beef (don't think cattle graze in the Amazon rainforest or what will be left of it in 20 years).

I don't think I have bashed any sector or organisation here, yet - just my tuppence worth. For €10 (I had no qualms writing them a cheque - its the price of two effing pints), I am happy as a beef farmer finishing weanlings to throw my hat in the ring while I still can - we could be wiped out if the UK balls it up (and if lads need a receipt, the organisers are easily contactable to arrange).
Christ, even if all we achieve is savings on our input costs and our voice to be heard, a tenner won't be missed and I doubt the organisers will be driving around in S-class Mercedes any time soon. Get rid of the penalties for 30-36 month cattle and that would be another win. Lucky we're not French, we would be burning effigies of Leo on the street corners...

Albert Johnson

Superb post above by ppn and raise several valid points. The BPM has only come to prominence in recent months and has achieved much publicity in this time. Despite it's protractors it has amassed a significant following this far and is gaining momentum all the time. It's a catch 22 situation as you need membership to achieve anything of important but struggle to gain members without having achieved some of your goals.

Any movement or organisation that indentifies the problems facing the beef sector as whole and attempts to introduce measures to combat these problems is worth supporting in my humble opinion. Let these measures be purchasing groups, producer groups or other proposal's there all of some benefit if enacted correctly.

Many lads are understandably disheartened with the sector in recent times. Between weather woes, economic concerns and the viewed lack of interest from established farming organisations in our plight it's not hard to be disillusioned. Many are at a crossroads regards there future in the beef industry and so called "journalism" from the media involving the benefits to be reaped following the demise of our sector is hard to take. The latest statements from that tool Varakar regarding the evils of meat consumption are yet another reminder of how disconnected the wider world is from our plight.

It's not hard to imagine why many feel that more needs to be done and that we require a dedicated movement to fight for our needs. We produce a premium product and should be adequately reimbursed for it. For years our focus has been centered on improving what lay within the farm gate but little has been done for us by those outside it. Therefore it's time for us to improve our own lot and take back some control of our future to ensure the continuation of the sector.

Every effort that is made against the established organisations is seen as an attack by its existing members. The IFA and it's equals should have nothing to fear from newcomers if they are already acting to the best of there abilities, transparency is only to be feared by those with something to hide. Provided that the BPN doesn't suffer from the same pitfalls as other organisations and remains steadfast to it's intitial aims then it should prosper if given support.

patsy_mccabe

Limerick Meeting - 22 Jan 19