Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

Bass Reeves

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

They count as a full unit for all the schemes so hard to square the circle

Nitrates, carbon and stocking units it is hard to even circle the square ( you have to think about that one but it is easier). Between sucklers and dairy bred stock all these calculation are done under the influence of magic mushroom's and a bit of crack cocaine. Add in grass and where it is grazed and if it is land suitable for forrestry or hen harrier land or other ecological bullsh!t what happens is mindboggling. The lads that invented the game have no clue either. That is why the lancet could publish the BS they did last week

coolshannagh28

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Nitrates, carbon and stocking units it is hard to even circle the square ( you have to think about that one but it is easier). Between sucklers and dairy bred stock all these calculation are done under the influence of magic mushroom's and a bit of crack cocaine. Add in grass and where it is grazed and if it is land suitable for forrestry or hen harrier land or other ecological bullsh!t what happens is mindboggling. The lads that invented the game have no clue either. That is why the lancet could publish the BS they did last week

Its a game the trick is to try to stay one step ahead of the keeper , we are back at a pre 03 scenario where nobody can fully grasp the array of options and it will have to be rationalised ; one thing I do know is that the individual has few friends but in the next few years the pendulum will swing back .

wrangler

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

The BPM seems to be well aware of these issues and hopefully will move in the direction of addressing the potential margin in upselling our product instead of a large financial exposure in processing .
On your second point , the creep into farmers subsidy has to be reversed , the benefit must go directly to farmers not govt, again the BPM seems switched on to this but the message must be concise.
With forestry ,as per a recent discussion group , the people involved long term had only positives regarding the financial returns and are well aware of the potential of carbon credits in the future if the govt will relinquish them.
One message that was clear from those running the group was that suckler farming has been seen as finished by strategists within the department for at least a decade ,farming is definitely at a crossroads but the balance between the needs of govt, processors and farmers needs to be realigned .

Not a lot of progress yet, what's all these meetings for,
What's been done about beef price, we're a month into a year, price still veering down, the ''creep'' into farmer subsidies are only a pittance compared to the price issue, Are they afraid of the real issues

_Brian

wrangler wrote: »

Not a lot of progress yet, what's all these meetings for,
What's been done about beef price, we're a month into a year, price still veering down, the ''creep'' into farmer subsidies are only a pittance compared to the price issue, Are they afraid of the real issues

Seems the plan is to continue building numbers to have more farmers to represent at the table.
I can see the sense in that.

IFA have had how long??, and prices are still slipping, they say they were trying all along, so I think a bit of time to build momentum for this new group is to be expected.

Damo810

_Brian wrote: »

Seems the plan is to continue building numbers to have more farmers to represent at the table.
I can see the sense in that.

IFA have had how long??, and prices are still slipping, they say they were trying all along, so I think a bit of time to build momentum for this new group is to be expected.

Trying to do something and failing would sink them straight away. They really need to be sure of success before doing anything or any farmer backing they have will disappear, imo.

wrangler

_Brian wrote: »

Seems the plan is to continue building numbers to have more farmers to represent at the table.
I can see the sense in that.

IFA have had how long??, and prices are still slipping, they say they were trying all along, so I think a bit of time to build momentum for this new group is to be expected.

Farmers aren't fools, the price is the price across Europe and farmers know that, all our income is coming from EU yet the whinge on facebook is to take away the funding from the only lobby body that's marking that issue,
It was unbelievable the movement we got on the last CAP Reform, If BPM had their way we'd have no subsidiy as well as poor beef price

coolshannagh28

wrangler wrote: »

Not a lot of progress yet, what's all these meetings for,
What's been done about beef price, we're a month into a year, price still veering down, the ''creep'' into farmer subsidies are only a pittance compared to the price issue, Are they afraid of the real issues

You are myopic when it comes to the IFA , they have had their day and made a contribution re CPO BPS etc but are perceived negatively now by many farmers and too willing to row in with the dept and processors who are putting money out of farmers pockets , time for new blood now particularly when beef farming in particular is at a crossroads.

Base price

wrangler wrote: »

Farmers aren't fools, the price is the price across Europe and farmers know that, all our income is coming from EU yet the whinge on facebook is to take away the funding from the only lobby body that's marking that issue,
It was unbelievable the movement we got on the last CAP Reform, If BPM had their way we'd have no subsidiy as well as poor beef price

What's this? EIF levy?

patsy_mccabe

Guess who's already exporting to China.

Beef exports increased in 2018, with a €50m three-year deal struck by ABP with a restaurant chain in China and exports to the US also up.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/rich-list-2019/profiles/larry-goodman-37749081.html

wrangler

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

You are myopic when it comes to the IFA , they have had their day and made a contribution re CPO BPS etc but are perceived negatively now by many farmers and too willing to row in with the dept and processors who are putting money out of farmers pockets , time for new blood now particularly when beef farming in particular is at a crossroads.

If BPM want to move forward they will have to learn to be 'in' with the department etc and they certainly won't make headway with the present whingefest against Bord Bia, dept, etc..
What do you think happens when a scheme is proposed and you don't get your own way, do you hold it up because it stipulates professional involvement and you make the dept send it back to brussels and delay it for another year.
Again I ask why would processors purposely overtrim when they have an easy €35/hd to pick up by dropping the price 10c, a bit of cop on is needed.
How can Bord Bia do any promotions with the criticism of the Irish Beef industry that's being put up by farmers on social media because of BPM.
High lighting intensive farming and GM in Irish beef on social media is a joke........talk about shooting yourself in the foot

gerryirl

have you gone to any BPM meeting to express your views wrangler. You have many points
As for your beloved IFA. I'm still a member but being a member is a bit like buying a bus ticket on line and then you wait at the bus station for a bus to arrive but it never comes. You wait for years until one day you get fed up. Thats what its like being an IFA member at the minute. There are great people in the IFA dont get me wrong but the bus is not coming so I have to go get the train (BPM). The train might derail but at least its trying to go somewhere

wrangler

gerryirl wrote: »

have you gone to any BPM meeting to express your views wrangler. You have many points
As for your beloved IFA. I'm still a member but being a member is a bit like buying a bus ticket on line and then you wait at the bus station for a bus to arrive but it never comes. You wait for years until one day you get fed up. Thats what its like being an IFA member at the minute. There are great people in the IFA dont get me wrong but the bus is not coming so I have to go get the train (BPM). The train might derail but at least its trying to go somewhere

IFA is not a one trick pony, they would have many issues going on at any one time......who knows may be the beef price issue is unsolveable, Subsidies stop the market from working properly, potatoes used to be a prime example of market working, price goes down, producers reduce, price goes up, everyone grew some and the price goes down again,
There's obviously enough subsidies floating around now for beef farmers to stay on the wheel without going broke.
Bad mouthing the Irish beef industry on social media is not the way to go

charolais0153

All this about selling beef as gm free etc is just limiting options. People arent going to pay extra for it so its just more work for nothing.

coolshannagh28

wrangler wrote: »

IFA is not a one trick pony, they would have many issues going on at any one time......who knows may be the beef price issue is unsolveable, Subsidies stop the market from working properly, potatoes used to be a prime example of market working, price goes down, producers reduce, price goes up, everyone grew some and the price goes down again,
There's obviously enough subsidies floating around now for beef farmers to stay on the wheel without going broke.
Bad mouthing the Irish beef industry on social media is not the way to go

I understand your cynicism in light of the subsidized nature of the marketplace and in my own business I maximise subsidy as I see it as the main source of profit , however many farmers willnot or can not accept this and require profit to justify their input where they see others profit further up the foodchain , the IFA and the dept seem to have accepted the status quo but the future wont work like this and primary producers may use the BPM to make their point on this.

wrangler

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

I understand your cynicism in light of the subsidized nature of the marketplace and in my own business I maximise subsidy as I see it as the main source of profit , however many farmers willnot or can not accept this and require profit to justify their input where they see others profit further up the foodchain , the IFA and the dept seem to have accepted the status quo but the future wont work like this and primary producers may use the BPM to make their point on this.

It's a bit unrealistc given the price across Europe, do they think the UK will give Red Tractor priceto us out of loyalty when there's cheaper beef coming in from mainland EU and elsewhere

coolshannagh28

wrangler wrote: »

It's a bit unrealistc given the price across Europe, do they think the UK will give Red Tractor priceto us out of loyalty when there's cheaper beef coming in from mainland EU and elsewhere

I do understand that and when the kill number is at 40000 per week then commodity beef price will be on the floor but farmers do not feel well served in this area our product is not well enough branded or marketed , subsidy may be to blame for this but normal service is not going to continue .

Bass Reeves

charolais0153 wrote: »

All this about selling beef as gm free etc is just limiting options. People arent going to pay extra for it so its just more work for nothing.

It is all about branding. There is a demand for grass fed hormone free beef. Gm free is not such a big extra jump. Feedlots can not mass produce it as it requires access to land. The only beef that is profitable is the beef produced odd grass. At best beef produced off ration is break even for the majority of smaller producer unless it is bull beef carried to massive weights. At the BPM meeting I heard one lad speak about high genetic potential bulls hitting 500 kgs DW. Very few markets look for this type of beef for reasons I have posted about often.

It was interesting in the comic this week that we are starting to see the first moves in the 2020 BPS changes. The dept is looking at a BPS cut off of 60K. IFA is lobbying for workers wages to be allowed to rise BPS. INHFA is happy with the 60K. The IFA is not lobbying for you and me, just like it is lobbying against producer groups. Just like it lobbying ruined REPS for the smaller and mid sized farmer especially on marginal land it is once again lobbying for the select few.

As I have posted I have issues with the BPM however at least I know where they stand on issues. I know that they are speaking straight. The same cannot be said for the IFA. It is once again lobbying for the select few larger farmers that have large BPS. It is of no benefit to the vast majority of farmers. Once again it will try to look after its golden circle. For all it talk IFA is a one trick pony. Look after the big guy F00K the rest.

patsy_mccabe

Jasus, my Dad used to always say that the IFA were only interested in loking after the big farmer. I used to always think he was very cynical.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is all about branding. There is a demand for grass fed hormone free beef. Gm free is not such a big extra jump. Feedlots can not mass produce it as it requires access to land. The only beef that is profitable is the beef produced odd grass. At best beef produced off ration is break even for the majority of smaller producer unless it is bull beef carried to massive weights. At the BPM meeting I heard one lad speak about high genetic potential bulls hitting 500 kgs DW. Very few markets look for this type of beef for reasons I have posted about often.

It was interesting in the comic this week that we are starting to see the first moves in the 2020 BPS changes. The dept is looking at a BPS cut off of 60K. IFA is lobbying for workers wages to be allowed to rise BPS. INHFA is happy with the 60K. The IFA is not lobbying for you and me, just like it is lobbying against producer groups. Just like it lobbying ruined REPS for the smaller and mid sized farmer especially on marginal land it is once again lobbying for the select few.

As I have posted I have issues with the BPM however at least I know where they stand on issues. I know that they are speaking straight. The same cannot be said for the IFA. It is once again lobbying for the select few larger farmers that have large BPS. It is of no benefit to the vast majority of farmers. Once again it will try to look after its golden circle. For all it talk IFA is a one trick pony. Look after the big guy F00K the rest.

They looked after me well on 50has, if the begrudgers think that's a big farm then, as you say. fook the rest.....it's only 12 HAs over the national average.
The harder you work the luckier you get you know.
There's parttime farmers now with €20 -50000 in entitlements that their parents accumulated and they're bringing in 50 -100000 salaries, are these the small farmers now you're shouting for..... you only need look it up, plenty of public servants pulling in good entitlements . are these the ones we should be lobbying for.......how dare IFA lobby for full time farmers to get extra entitlements for having workers employed.

There's last years annual report, all 166 pages, not bad for a one trick pony,
There's a list of national officers at the back....a lot of farmers for begrudgin

https://www.ifa.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/IFA-AnnualReport-2018.pdf

jaymla627

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is all about branding. There is a demand for grass fed hormone free beef. Gm free is not such a big extra jump. Feedlots can not mass produce it as it requires access to land. The only beef that is profitable is the beef produced odd grass. At best beef produced off ration is break even for the majority of smaller producer unless it is bull beef carried to massive weights. At the BPM meeting I heard one lad speak about high genetic potential bulls hitting 500 kgs DW. Very few markets look for this type of beef for reasons I have posted about often.

It was interesting in the comic this week that we are starting to see the first moves in the 2020 BPS changes. The dept is looking at a BPS cut off of 60K. IFA is lobbying for workers wages to be allowed to rise BPS. INHFA is happy with the 60K. The IFA is not lobbying for you and me, just like it is lobbying against producer groups. Just like it lobbying ruined REPS for the smaller and mid sized farmer especially on marginal land it is once again lobbying for the select few.

As I have posted I have issues with the BPM however at least I know where they stand on issues. I know that they are speaking straight. The same cannot be said for the IFA. It is once again lobbying for the select few larger farmers that have large BPS. It is of no benefit to the vast majority of farmers. Once again it will try to look after its golden circle. For all it talk IFA is a one trick pony. Look after the big guy F00K the rest.

The subject of armchair farmers claiming the sfp and pocketing 200 plus odd euro in rent would be a far greater red line issue, along with the scraping of historicial payments based on what you where doing 18 odd years ago during the reference years.....
I’d be judging them on the above before the max payment issue, any concentrated efforts by the IFA to keep the status quo would be very telling

wrangler

jaymla627 wrote: »

The subject of armchair farmers claiming the sfp and pocketing 200 plus odd euro in rent would be a far greater red line issue, along with the scraping of historicial payments based on what you where doing 18 odd years ago during the reference years.....
I’d be judging them on the above before the max payment issue, any concentrated efforts by the IFA to keep the status quo would be very telling

I doubt any organisation that represents all farmers is going to promote taking one farmers income and giving it to another ........
There'll be 100 IFA officers at the AGM tomorrow from all different enterprises,the only policy they can have is, same as last time, that no one should lose much and retain all the funding
Of course the INHFA will be lobbying for the hill farmer to take it all and ICSA will be lobbying to take it off the dairy farmers,
There's eight feckin farm orgs now.

coolshannagh28

wrangler wrote: »

I doubt any organisation that represents all farmers is going to promote taking one farmers income and giving it to another ........
There'll be 100 IFA officers at the AGM tomorrow from all different enterprises,the only policy they can have is, same as last time, that no one should lose much and retain all the funding
Of course the INHFA will be lobbying for the hill farmer to take it all and ICSA will be lobbying to take it off the dairy farmers,
There's eight feckin farm orgs now.

Your argument is not logical , above you are decrying part time farmers and Public Servants pulling down historical payments and rental income tax free , yet you constantly throw out the " Im all right Jack " regarding your own income , this does your organisation no favours and encapsulates perfectly the frustration of farmers with the IFA.

wrangler

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Your argument is not logical , above you are decrying part time farmers and Public Servants pulling down historical payments and rental income tax free , yet you constantly throw out the " Im all right Jack " regarding your own income , this does your organisation no favours and encapsulates perfectly the frustration of farmers with the IFA.

My argument is logical, it's because all size of farmers and all ages are represented that IFA can not pull from one sector to give to another. Bass thinks that the core farmers, the full time ones shouldn't be subsidised to the size of their enterprise yet two teachers grossing 100000 have no problem getting BPS. It's irellevant anyway as any maximum payment can be got around with a bit of imagination
Surely there's thousands of farmers with similar systems to mine, this BS about same payment's for 18 years, farms don't stand still, alot of the good BPS farms have moved on to he next generation, some even benefitting from young farmer partnership, which is more BS.... Money for ''Coppers'' night club and come home once a month and my BPS is reduced to finance that.
There would be none of this messing if every farmer maximised their payments in the reference years

jaymla627

wrangler wrote: »

My argument is logical, it's because all size of farmers and all ages are represented that IFA can not pull from one sector to give to another. Bass thinks that the core farmers, the full time ones shouldn't be subsidised to the size of their enterprise yet two teachers grossing 100000 have no problem getting BPS. It's irellevant anyway as any maximum payment can be got around with a bit of imagination
Surely there's thousands of farmers with similar systems to mine, this BS about same payment's for 18 years, farms don't stand still, alot of the good BPS farms have moved on to he next generation, some even benefitting from young farmer partnership, which is more BS.... Money for ''Coppers'' night club and come home once a month and my BPS is reduced to finance that.
There would be none of this messing if every farmer maximised their payments in the reference years

So in your view, a 100 cow suckler man say farming 150 acres and a good historically sfp of 40 grand plus say down to around 30k now is entitled to keep this money in the new cap and a new entrant say in the last 10 years that inherited a carbon copy of the above farm same cow numbers and acres that had no entitlements with him applying to national reserve and maybe recieving 15k should stay at this level so as to keep the older lad in a new land cruiser every 3 years its some pretty f**ked up logic you have

bogman_bass

wrangler wrote: »

My argument is logical, it's because all size of farmers and all ages are represented that IFA can not pull from one sector to give to another. Bass thinks that the core farmers, the full time ones shouldn't be subsidised to the size of their enterprise yet two teachers grossing 100000 have no problem getting BPS. It's irellevant anyway as any maximum payment can be got around with a bit of imagination
Surely there's thousands of farmers with similar systems to mine, this BS about same payment's for 18 years, farms don't stand still, alot of the good BPS farms have moved on to he next generation, some even benefitting from young farmer partnership, which is more BS.... Money for ''Coppers'' night club and come home once a month and my BPS is reduced to finance that.
There would be none of this messing if every farmer maximised their payments in the reference years

Sorry wrangler i’m Not having thatfarm partnerships are an essential part of generational change in the industry. Young farmers are investing in their farms old farmers are not. Taking a swing at young farmers is out of line

amacca

wrangler wrote: »

I doubt any organisation that represents all farmers is going to promote taking one farmers income and giving it to another

Would that not depend on the relative sizes of the groups the money might travel between............ and how much influence they have either in terms of power in numbers (and demonstrating a willingness to act) or how many brown envelopes they can muster etc

wrangler

jaymla627 wrote: »

So in your view, a 100 cow suckler man say farming 150 acres and a good historically sfp of 40 grand plus say down to around 30k now is entitled to keep this money in the new cap and a new entrant say in the last 10 years that inherited a carbon copy of the above farm same cow numbers and acres that had no entitlements with him applying to national reserve and maybe recieving 15k should stay at this level so as to keep the older lad in a new land cruiser every 3 years its some pretty f**ked up logic you have

Top third of suckler farmers made €362/ha last year and a good bit less this year, so €20000 from cows and €30000 from subs so €50000, if he's farming since the nineties it's the least he should have, the new entrant has plenty of other options without taking an income from someone that's too old to change.
If his OH isn't working, he won't be changing the LC every 3 years either.
Why didn't the new entrant think out his options if 15k isn't enough.
Nurses on 40000 are saying now it isn't enough, no way Is 50000 overpaid for minding 100 cows

wrangler

bogman_bass wrote: »

Sorry wrangler i’m Not having thatfarm partnerships are an essential part of generational change in the industry. Young farmers are investing in their farms old farmers are not. Taking a swing at young farmers is out of line

Like everything it's being abused. I might be generalising but it's happening, people are generalising about retired farmers even though those in the retirement scheme had their entitlements taken off them in the last CAP REFORM.
You should study the farms around you in the scheme

jaymla627

wrangler wrote: »

Top third of suckler farmers made €362/ha last year and a good bit less this year, so €20000 from cows and €30000 from subs so €50000, if he's farming since the nineties it's the least he should have, the new entrant has plenty of other options without taking an income from someone that's too old to change.
If his OH isn't working, he won't be changing the LC every 3 years either.
Why didn't the new entrant think out his options if 15k isn't enough.
Nurses on 40000 are saying now it isn't enough, no way Is 50000 overpaid for minding 100 cows

So the cap should remain as a de facto pension fund for older farmers, and the younger generation can whistle for it/ should basically forget about farming as a career, if that’s along the lines the top tier in the ifa are thinking along its pathetic to put it mildly.....

wrangler

jaymla627 wrote: »

So the cap should remain as a de facto pension fund for older farmers, and the younger generation can whistle for it/ should basically forget about farming as a career, if that’s along the lines the top tier in the ifa are thinking along its pathetic to put it mildly.....

I got no 15000/yr when I started farming, whinge on about IFA then, everyone else does when they know I have a point. Hopefully who ever get;s the dosh in the new CAP reform will have to pull their finger out and work for it like we did.
Mine is a pension now alright, how long will the pension last, probably two years,
Let's face facts, my subs are down from 40k to 25 because some farmers didn't maximise their payments, that's not right either, the Irish budget should be two billion not one point three billion.
That mythical farmer you described lives near here and he has three kids in College......you'll do a great job on him won't you, I can assure you e isn't blowing the subs in ''coppers'' or on toyotas either. but sure why would you care