Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

Bass Reeves

It was interesting that in this weeks rag that a Dawn Executive gave his opinion after weeks of negativity about dairy cross beef. His opinion was that dairy cross beef in the O+ bracket from 280-360 kgs DW fed the requirement. While he had an issue with breeding at present he was also aware of the demand for marbled beef and of the retailer demand for pack size. It is interesting that this is a contradiction to retired factory managers and Teagasc advisor's opinion. But what would he know about market demand compared to a retired executive or a Teagasc advisor that f@@ked over already.

When you think look a little bit deeper. a few millimeters all the BS about the demand for suckler bred cattle is just a market ploy. Yes they want them sub 30 months, and sub 330kgs DW provided they have the fat cover. Suckler cattle is all about winter finishing and finding idiots to produce them and do it. If 360 is the ideal DW for an O+ animal then an R+ steer or heifer would want to be 30kgs lighter. While we all like a nice ass it all about the fat cover.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It was interesting that in this weeks rag that a Dawn Executive gave his opinion after weeks of negativity about dairy cross beef. His opinion was that dairy cross beef in the O+ bracket from 280-360 kgs DW fed the requirement. While he had an issue with breeding at present he was also aware of the demand for marbled beef and of the retailer demand for pack size. It is interesting that this is a contradiction to retired factory managers and Teagasc advisor's opinion. But what would he know about market demand compared to a retired executive or a Teagasc advisor that f@@ked over already.

When you think look a little bit deeper. a few millimeters all the BS about the demand for suckler bred cattle is just a market ploy. Yes they want them sub 30 months, and sub 330kgs DW provided they have the fat cover. Suckler cattle is all about winter finishing and finding idiots to produce them and do it. If 360 is the ideal DW for an O+ animal then an R+ steer or heifer would want to be 30kgs lighter. While we all like a nice ass it all about the fat cover.

Aren't you expecting someone to produce stores at unviable prices too.
Are you any better than the factories in that
Aren't factories paying to 400kg so they must be selling them,
A factory manager that managed a company in both England and Ireland up to a year ago would know something about markets....probably more than even you.
An O+ is probably alright (just about) but producers selling O= and below might need to be given a few thousand ton to market just to be able to tell the factories their business, If I was a processor I know that's what I'd do with the barstool experts that claim they know what sells and doesn't sell

wrangler

older by the day wrote: »

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/news/farming-news/a-hard-brexit-might-be-the-best-thing-for-our-dairy-industry-it-would-free-up-lots-of-land-37699061.html
. is that what teagasc and IF A and our government secretly want. Can someone put this up as a link.

IFA have a beef commitee, I don't know any of them but if it's weighted towards milk, beef farmers only have themselves to blame if it's manned by beef producing dairy farmers .
In all honesty, no one could promote beef production as an enterprise at the moment. you have to promote where the money is whatever about where the future is.

Willfarman

wrangler wrote: »

Aren't you expecting someone to produce stores at unviable prices too.
Are you any better than the factories in that
Aren't factories paying to 400kg so they must be selling them,
A factory manager that managed a company in both England and Ireland up to a year ago would know something about markets....probably more than even you.
An O+ is probably alright (just about) but producers selling O= and below might need to be given a few thousand ton to market just to be able to tell the factories their business, If I was a processor I know that's what I'd do with the barstool experts that claim they know what sells and doesn't sell

Boned out beef from similar age weight and fat cover animals a O- animal compared to an o+ (And assuming honest grading which is questionable more often than not)

There would be no discernable difference in meat quality. If anything the lesser grading carcass might have the edge, it will be more likely to have ideal cut size and a little less expensive sirloin and striploin to market.
And with a difference of of 24cent a kg in the purchase price I would safely take a punt on marketing the dairy bred beef in the highest price and largest market we have which is the uk supermarket trade.

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

Aren't you expecting someone to produce stores at unviable prices too.
Are you any better than the factories in that
Aren't factories paying to 400kg so they must be selling them,
A factory manager that managed a company in both England and Ireland up to a year ago would know something about markets....probably more than even you.
An O+ is probably alright (just about) but producers selling O= and below might need to be given a few thousand ton to market just to be able to tell the factories their business, If I was a processor I know that's what I'd do with the barstool experts that claim they know what sells and doesn't sell

Like I have said loads of times a finisher works on margin he passes back any lift or cut in prices back down the line. Take lads finishing cattle at present. They are taking a hit of 70/head compared to last year on price and if you consider that a few years ago the base after Christmas was usually 4.1 and above he is back another 70/ head since then. His finishing costs are gone up by another 60+ in the last 12 months. Most lads at it are losing there shirts I am glad I exited it
Lads producing stores need to consider when buying calves or weanlings if they buy less and produce less will they have a better chance of making money. That means stopping competing with exporter's for calves and weanlings, stop buying poorer quality calves and let the dairy industry solve the disposal of them. I exited winter finishing because I could not see a margin in it lads have to look at the margins and exit or reduce numbers where margins are too poor.
If some within the beef industry who want to tinker with the grid payments get there way I will have even less to pass back to store producers. For all the guff about the quality of dairy beef the next time you go into a good butcher most of the beef on display is from O-/O= grading heifer's killing sub 280 kgs.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Like I have said loads of times a finisher works on margin he passes back any lift or cut in prices back down the line. Take lads finishing cattle at present. They are taking a hit of 70/head compared to last year on price and if you consider that a few years ago the base after Christmas was usually 4.1 and above he is back another 70/ head since then. His finishing costs are gone up by another 60+ in the last 12 months. Most lads at it are losing there shirts I am glad I exited it
Lads producing stores need to consider when buying calves or weanlings if they buy less and produce less will they have a better chance of making money. That means stopping competing with exporter's for calves and weanlings, stop buying poorer quality calves and let the dairy industry solve the disposal of them. I exited winter finishing because I could not see a margin in it lads have to look at the margins and exit or reduce numbers where margins are too poor.
If some within the beef industry who want to tinker with the grid payments get there way I will have even less to pass back to store producers. For all the guff about the quality of dairy beef the next time you go into a good butcher most of the beef on display is from O-/O= grading heifer's killing sub 280 kgs.

One thing that's always puzzled me is where the final market for suckler beef actually is.

In general, it doesn't seem to be domestic retail or the British retail market so is it manufacturing beef in general or where?

charolais0153

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

One thing that's always puzzled me is where the final market for suckler beef actually is.

In general, it doesn't seem to be domestic retail or the British retail market so is it manufacturing beef in general or where?

Anywhere but uk and ireland. Ypu wouldnt see too many angus or whiteheads in france and italy

Willfarman

charolais0153 wrote: »

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

One thing that's always puzzled me is where the final market for suckler beef actually is.

In general, it doesn't seem to be domestic retail or the British retail market so is it manufacturing beef in general or where?

Anywhere but uk and ireland. Ypu wouldnt see too many angus or whiteheads in france and italy

That’s why you don’t try bring an apple to sell in a orchard.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/abp-beef-agrees-irish-hereford-prime-deal-carrefour-italia/

patsy_mccabe

Anyone else think it's high time we had a proper Brand for Irish Beef. One similar to the Red Label and owned by Irish farmers. Otherwise we're just not adding value to a prime product. Selling bottom shelf has no future, in an ever increasing over supplied market.

Willfarman

W

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Anyone else think it's high time we had a proper Brand for Irish Beef. One similar to the Red Label and owened by Irish farmers. Otherwise we're just not adding value to a prime product. Selling bottom shelf has no future, in an ever increasing over supplied market.

We have bord bia and that’s quangos enough!

coolshannagh28

Willfarman wrote: »

W
We have bord bia and that’s quangos enough!

" Bord Bia " really resonates with the UK housewife.

patsy_mccabe

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

" Bord Bia " really resonates with the UK housewife.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55U57kJWuIo

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

As Albert Johnson posted none of these are realistic options. No2 and 3 are market distorting as well so are against EU rules if state aided. There are a few different type of veal. White Veal in general is produced from calves fed a milk or milk substitute with slaughter at 18-20 weeks. Pink or Rose veal is grain based production to give a pink colour to the meat at 20-30 weeks. Grass fed veal would be a darker red. In general it is not produced in Europe but there is some in Canada and the USA.



Hard for cull cow prices to fall in the Netherlands. Hollands has the lowest priced beef prices in Europe even lower than Poland at times. Why so I do not know. There beef prices are back at around the 3/kg mark



Big difference between dairy bred beef in Ireland and Holland. Holland has an indoor dairy system Holstein based with high replacement rates. All cows would be put back in calf to Holstein breeding because of high replacement rate. In Ireland we are heading towards peak dairy so from now on 60%+ of the calves will be from beef/Dairy crossbreds.



There seems a certain suckler based bias in there plans. A lot of there proposals seem to ignore the reality of where the market is heading. Will they have to deliver, I am not sure the IFA have delivered SFA to beef farmers and west of Ireland farmers for the last 10 years and seem to be able to survive.

IFA don't bad mouth other organisations,
After giving a platform to this sort of abuse the BPM will have to deliver or they'll quickly become irrelevant too.
They've done nothing yet in what will be the worst spring for beef farmers in years, looking to be worse than 2013,
Bord Bia, IFA , Processors etc should really stand back now, because they're being discredited publicly everywhere and they'll be criticised in everything they do from now on. But I know they won't...... foolishly enough.

If BPM had the slightest inkling that farmers would have the backbone to do whats needed they'd have moved by now, It's not as if there isn't a crisis.
They criticise IFA for not being able to do anything and here they are doing nothing

older by the day

wrangler wrote: »

older by the day wrote: »

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/news/farming-news/a-hard-brexit-might-be-the-best-thing-for-our-dairy-industry-it-would-free-up-lots-of-land-37699061.html
. is that what teagasc and IF A and our government secretly want. Can someone put this up as a link.

IFA have a beef commitee, I don't know any of them but if it's weighted towards milk, beef farmers only have themselves to blame if it's manned by beef producing dairy farmers .
In all honesty, no one could promote beef production as an enterprise at the moment. you have to promote where the money is whatever about where the future is.

Glad to know that, I taught when beef farmers paid their money to IFA each year, that they should be represented, seems not. Can I get a refund for the past ten years ?

wrangler

charolais0153 wrote: »

Anywhere but uk and ireland. Ypu wouldnt see too many angus or whiteheads in france and italy

Irish cattle wouldn't be in the running with french and italian cattle for conformation, I was on a trip once and the guys with me were wondering how they'd get some of the bulls out of the feedlots home for their suckler herd, there was nothing pedigree as good in Ireland,
French weanlings were brought to a depot and only took 6 or 8 hours to get to the feedlots in Italy.....that time they were cheaper than Irish weanling and no Pnuemonia we were told

Bass Reeves

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

One thing that's always puzzled me is where the final market for suckler beef actually is.

In general, it doesn't seem to be domestic retail or the British retail market so is it manufacturing beef in general or where?

The heifers killing sub 360kgs would be used in the British retail trade some of it would be used in the catering trade. You have School meals in the UK. However most of the bulls and even young bulls as well as the heavier steers would generally targeted at the the Continental market. At the moment the French, German and Italian markets are nearly returning UK prices.

There was a good article in The rag as well about a lad in Wexford that is finishing cattle. His figures are that we need a price of around 4.5/kg for winter finishing. however he was on that he taught we should be paid on meta yield. I not sure what some lads are thinking about it would give processors another stick to beat us with.

wrangler wrote: »

IFA don't bad mouth other organisations,
After giving a platform to this sort of abuse the BPM will have to deliver or they'll quickly become irrelevant too.
They've done nothing yet in what will be the worst spring for beef farmers in years, looking to be worse than 2013,
Bord Bia, IFA , Processors etc should really stand back now, because they're being discredited publicly everywhere and they'll be criticised in everything they do from now on. But I know they won't...... foolishly enough.

If BPM had the slightest inkling that farmers would have the backbone to do whats needed they'd have moved by now, It's not as if there isn't a crisis.
They criticise IFA for not being able to do anything and here they are doing nothing

The BPM is 3-4 months old and some lads are expecting miracles already. This is a long distance race not a sprint. What need to be done is to put structures in place that will stop market manipulation. The main criticism of the IFA was that it policies are of benefit to a select few and it is not interested in structural changes that will benefit most farmers.

However my main quibble with the BPM is that it is getting dragged towards being a suckler farmer organisation.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The heifers killing sub 360kgs would be used in the British retail trade some of it would be used in the catering trade. You have School meals in the UK. However most of the bulls and even young bulls as well as the heavier steers would generally targeted at the the Continental market. At the moment the French, German and Italian markets are nearly returning UK prices.

There was a good article in The rag as well about a lad in Wexford that is finishing cattle. His figures are that we need a price of around 4.5/kg for winter finishing. however he was on that he taught we should be paid on meta yield. I not sure what some lads are thinking about it would give processors another stick to beat us with.



The BPM is 3-4 months old and some lads are expecting miracles already. This is a long distance race not a sprint. What need to be done is to put structures in place that will stop market manipulation. The main criticism of the IFA was that it policies are of benefit to a select few and it is not interested in structural changes that will benefit most farmers.

However my main quibble with the BPM is that it is getting dragged towards being a suckler farmer organisation.

So it's being traded as a commodity rather than a farmer perceived quality product?

Bass Reeves

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

So it's being traded as a commodity rather than a farmer perceived quality product?

Yes too many suckler farmers as well as the Teagasc, the Journal and the IFA give out this line about the demand for suckler beef and about meat yield the problem is that for suckler cattle to hit targets for the British retail trade that the DW weight limits makes it completely unviable to produce.

Lads having wet dreams about bulls killing 500kgs or steers killing 450DW are producing beef that is not even really a commodity product. This beef has to be shifted there is another issue in that heavy steer beef is grass fed in general so the fat and meat colour is totally wrong for the Italian market. The meat is too red and the fat too yellow.

Theyank1

I was at the BPM meeting in Letterkenny the other night and I keep hearing the same quote from people that we as farmers receive 20% of the retail price, factories 30% and retailers 50%.

Has anyone actually done the sums. If this were the case then beef would be selling at €30/kg in shops. Beef sells at €9/kg in shops on average.

A 420kg carcass @ €3.80/kg is €1,600 to the farmer, once boned is 280kg of meat for sale. 280kg at €9 is €2,500 what it sells for in the shop.
That's 63% of retail price goes to farmers and 37% shared between processors and retailers, not the 20% quoted by the BPM.
Now the processors get the 5th quarter which is worth €150. Even though we get a larger percentage of the retail price we are still not making money, it should be who gets what percentage of profit, farmers 0%, processors 50% and retailers 50%.

older by the day

Theyank1 wrote: »

I was at the BPM meeting in Letterkenny the other night and I keep hearing the same quote from people that we as farmers receive 20% of the retail price, factories 30% and retailers 50%.

Has anyone actually done the sums. If this were the case then beef would be selling at €30/kg in shops. Beef sells at €9/kg in shops on average.

A 420kg carcass @ €3.80/kg is €1,600 to the farmer, once boned is 280kg of meat for sale. 280kg at €9 is €2,500 what it sells for in the shop.
That's 63% of retail price goes to farmers and 37% shared between processors and retailers, not the 20% quoted by the BPM.
Now the processors get the 5th quarter which is worth €150. Even though we get a larger percentage of the retail price we are still not making money, it should be who gets what percentage of profit, farmers 0%, processors 50% and retailers 50%.

I suppose you are on to something, overall food price has never risen with inflation, I used to grow potatoes and veg for the house, its cheaper to buy them now. Same with beef, it should be double the price in the shop, but people won't pay that

farawaygrass

I’m on the verge of leaving their WhatsApp group. Very annoying at this stage

TITANIUM.

Theyank1 wrote: »

I was at the BPM meeting in Letterkenny the other night and I keep hearing the same quote from people that we as farmers receive 20% of the retail price, factories 30% and retailers 50%.

Has anyone actually done the sums. If this were the case then beef would be selling at €30/kg in shops. Beef sells at €9/kg in shops on average.

A 420kg carcass @ €3.80/kg is €1,600 to the farmer, once boned is 280kg of meat for sale. 280kg at €9 is €2,500 what it sells for in the shop.
That's 63% of retail price goes to farmers and 37% shared between processors and retailers, not the 20% quoted by the BPM.
Now the processors get the 5th quarter which is worth €150. Even though we get a larger percentage of the retail price we are still not making money, it should be who gets what percentage of profit, farmers 0%, processors 50% and retailers 50%.

if you stop and think, you've answered your own question.

their talking about the %profit obviously. And that 20 %Profit you mention is often divided between a number of farmers I.E. the suckler man, the store man and the finished. And probably never or very rarely in equal proportion.

patsy_mccabe

farawaygrass wrote: »

I’m on the verge of leaving their WhatsApp group. Very annoying at this stage

Mute Notifications by going into Group Info. It will drive you nuts otherwise.

Track9

In my Local Supermarket , it seems beef sell for 12 - 18 euro per kg. I have never seen beef for 9 euro per kg .

Theyank1

Track9 wrote: »

In my Local Supermarket , it seems beef sell for 12 - 18 euro per kg. I have never seen beef for 9 euro per kg .

Correct, steaks and roasts sell for that, but they only make up a small portion of the carcass, the majority of the carcass about 2/3 is mince which sells for €4-€5/kg. The animal isn't made entirely of expensive steak cuts.

Bass Reeves

Theyank1 wrote: »

Correct, steaks and roasts sell for that, but they only make up a small portion of the carcass, the majority of the carcass about 2/3 is mince which sells for €4-€5/kg. The animal isn't made entirely of expensive steak cuts.

I have not see mince in general as cheap as that It is usually about 7-10/kg to get it any cheaper you have to buy 2-3 packs togeather in an offer. I doubt if 2/3 of the beef sold is mince. There is a certain amount sold value added, meatballs burgers etc but this again would be in the 7-19/kg. You forget as well that a large amount is sold as premium brand AA and Hereford which is 20-30% more expensive. As there is meat recovered that is not paid for. Ox tail now retails at 5-8 euro/kg which is not weighted on the carcasse. The processors try to steak as much meat as possible so I vey much doubt if 66% is sold as mince

The meat yield rate on carcasse's varies from about 68-76% but in genera is about 72%. A 330kg carcasse gives 237kgs of meat. At a base of 3.75/kg adding in QA it is costing 3.87/kg taht is if R grade if O grade it is less but meat yield would be less. That 330kg carcasse costs them 1277 - vat of 5.25% is 1213. Take away the fifth quarter at 150 euro leaves it at 1063. The 237kgs of meat is costing about 4.5/kg. The fifth quarter may be worth more than the 150 euro which would reduce the meat value further.

A lot of it is only simple maths like vat and the third quarter value.Third quarter value is hard to ascertain as but 150 would be minimum IMO. Meat recovery rates are fairly well known in the industry. Average carcasses weights are below 350 for steers and I presume that heifer weights are down around the 300kgs. While there is costs involved in boning smaller carcasses fifth quarter would make up a high percentage of the value. As in in poorer grading animals the fifth quarter would be a bigger percentage of the overall value take out no QA and this beef is very cheap to sell. As for percentage going to mince look at a supermarket shelves and you will see that mince takes up way less than 50% of the retail space allotted to beef and even less in butchers. Processors steak as much beef as possible. While poorer quality carcasses may not have striploins of the right shape if the carcasses is heavy enough(hitting the 360kgs DW barrier the fillet steak, ribeye, sirloin as well as other steak cuts are coming in very cheap. A P+ animal in that range would be costing below 3/kg boned out.

patsy_mccabe

Where is your source for that Bass Reeves? They are handy figures to have.

Bass Reeves

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Where is your source for that Bass Reeves? They are handy figures to have.

A lot of it is simple maths. Boning out rates are fairly well know within the industry. Vat rebate rate is common knowledge. Third quarter value is hard to ascertain but 150 would be minimum average and could well be up above 200 euro. While processors and retailers have costs they are only a fraction of farmers costs. Carcasses weight averages are published every now and again. The last time I saw it steers averaged around 345/kg and heifers about 300kgs. 330kgs would be a fair carcass average but the average could be lower.

If you look at supermarket space allotted to beef in any supermarket mince only takes up 20-30% of the space give even that it turns over faster than roasts and steakes it is hard to see total turnover being higher than 50%. Butchers even allot less space to mince.

If you look at lighter and poorer grading carcasses some of the meat is coming in very cheap. Take a P+ bullock killing 360DW. The fifth quarter would be above average value maybe above 200 euro. His factory price is 3.45/kg at present giving him a price of 1242 euro. Take away vat and the processor pays 1182 for him. As he has a big body weight his fifth quarter could be in excess of 200 euro. That means his total carcass cost is 982 euro. Even at a recovery rate of 65% gives 234 kgs of beef costing about 4.17/kg. While the striploins might be the wrong size the fillet with a carcass that size should be ok, as should the ribseyes , sirloin and rest of the steak cuts.

yosemitesam1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

A lot of it is simple maths. Boning out rates are fairly well know within the industry. Vat rebate rate is common knowledge. Third quarter value is hard to ascertain but 150 would be minimum average and could well be up above 200 euro. While processors and retailers have costs they are only a fraction of farmers costs. Carcasses weight averages are published every now and again. The last time I saw it steers averaged around 345/kg and heifers about 300kgs. 330kgs would be a fair carcass average but the average could be lower.

If you look at supermarket space allotted to beef in any supermarket mince only takes up 20-30% of the space give even that it turns over faster than roasts and steakes it is hard to see total turnover being higher than 50%. Butchers even allot less space to mince.

If you look at lighter and poorer grading carcasses some of the meat is coming in very cheap. Take a P+ bullock killing 360DW. The fifth quarter would be above average value maybe above 200 euro. His factory price is 3.45/kg at present giving him a price of 1242 euro. Take away vat and the processor pays 1182 for him. As he has a big body weight his fifth quarter could be in excess of 200 euro. That means his total carcass cost is 982 euro. Even at a recovery rate of 65% gives 234 kgs of beef costing about 4.17/kg. While the striploins might be the wrong size the fillet with a carcass that size should be ok, as should the ribseyes , sirloin and rest of the steak cuts.

What interest would you be allowing on the factories investment? Surely there's serious money tied up in all the beef factories+all extra add ons that should be generating at least 10% a year.
By the time labour and the supermarkets/wholesalers take their cut, it wouldn't be long getting tight I'd say. It's always very easy to make money of fag box calculations when you don't know the workings in detail.

Bass Reeves

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

What interest would you be allowing on the factories investment? Surely there's serious money tied up in all the beef factories+all extra add ons that should be generating at least 10% a year.
By the time labour and the supermarkets/wholesalers take their cut, it wouldn't be long getting tight I'd say. It's always very easy to make money of fag box calculations when you don't know the workings in detail.

I suppose that farmers have made no investments. Most processing units are donkey years old. most are well depreciated at this stage through tax write off. Yes factory's are entitled to a return on investment. I was just giving a back of the fag box calculation as you put it of what deboned beef is being paid to the farmer. what are boning and packaging costs another 20%'?.

if beef retails at 9/kg on average farmers seem to receive less than 50% of the final price. tge average may be higher due to premium brand like AA and He brands. Fillet steak retails at between 30-40 euro/kg. I know there is only a few kgs in an animal but steak in general averages 20ish maybe a tad above. Everybody is foing well out of tge system except the primary producer