Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

wrangler

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Can't remember entirely what he said but he deffo said he had contracts for China that he can't fill. He also said that the 4 big processors here won't supply him. Got the feeling he wants farmers here to part finance the operation.

I suspected as much because he seems to be at every meeting
Processors probably have a good reason to avoid,
Kepak took ages to get passed to supply china.
Even with the buyers group, they'd be better to stay at 150 farmers, Buyways was started in 2000 with the same idea and went to the wall, The reason for the success of these groups, lamb groups etc is that there's a hell of a lot of voluntary work done.

charolais0153

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Can't remember entirely what he said but he deffo said he had contracts for China that he can't fill. He also said that the 4 big processors here won't supply him. Got the feeling he wants farmers here to part finance the operation.

That looks dodgy af. Probably no guarantee of money by the chinese

wrangler

charolais0153 wrote: »

That looks dodgy af. Probably no guarantee of money by the chinese

I'd hope they checked him out before they gave him such a platform. I'd heard they had a dealer on the top table, I doubt it was him that was being referred to

Siamsa Sessions

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

- 50% of Irish beef is going to the UK where it is sold at a 27% discount to the UK Red Tractor lable. It's sold bottom shelf and marketed as a second rate product.
- Overall 40% of Irish Beef goes into Retail and 60% to the wholesale market (Burgers and stew). So your under 30 month QA top quality Char bullock is going into the same mixing bowl as the P grade Fr cow from the Dairy herd.
- Irish Beef is generally sold at 95% of the EU average and not at the higher figure as reported by Bord Bia.

If there's reputable sources to back this up, it makes a mockery of Bord Bia and their "marketing" of Irish food. It's looks like beef is being off-loaded at a discount more so than being marketed.

Was at a different farmers meeting last night and sales/marketing came up there too. Gist of the comment was that supermarkets and Bord Bia had a free run at selling what they liked for whatever price they liked, and farmers were left to pick up the tab with no chance to challenge this race-to-the-bottom.

coolshannagh28

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

If there's reputable sources to back this up, it makes a mockery of Bord Bia and their "marketing" of Irish food. It's looks like beef is being off-loaded at a discount more so than being marketed.

Was at a different farmers meeting last night and sales/marketing came up there too. Gist of the comment was that supermarkets and Bord Bia had a free run at selling what they liked for whatever price they liked, and farmers were left to pick up the tab with no chance to challenge this race-to-the-bottom.

Processors are using the differential between UK and Irish factory prices as a cushion to make margin on their decades old strategy of , stack it high , sell it cheap ; Lions led by donkeys.

wrangler

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

If there's reputable sources to back this up, it makes a mockery of Bord Bia and their "marketing" of Irish food. It's looks like beef is being off-loaded at a discount more so than being marketed.

Was at a different farmers meeting last night and sales/marketing came up there too. Gist of the comment was that supermarkets and Bord Bia had a free run at selling what they liked for whatever price they liked, and farmers were left to pick up the tab with no chance to challenge this race-to-the-bottom.

Bord bia run promotions and ads, entertain customers, etc, they don't price or sell anything, they are just PR.
Irish beef is cheaper in england than local, if we don't sell it into England at that price, plenty of other countries will, Why do you think Larry is working from Poland now and getting plenty of beef into england from there

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/poland-now-the-third-largest-beef-exporter-to-uk-after-ireland-and-the-netherlands/

English beef price
http://beefandlamb.ahdb.org.uk/markets/deadweight-price-reports/deadweight-cattle-prices/

Mooooo

I assume the meat from the netherlands is mainly dairy based? Was there during the summer where one farmer said that the price of beef, in his case cull cow's hadn't fallen despite the cull there

wrangler

Mooooo wrote: »

I assume the meat from the netherlands is mainly dairy based? Was there during the summer where one farmer said that the price of beef, in his case cull cow's hadn't fallen despite the cull there

Won't be long till we're dairy based here

Albert Johnson

alps wrote: »

The Beef Plan Movement’s view is that there are three possible solutions:
The establishment of a grass-fed veal industry in Ireland;
The introduction of a 14-day-old slaughter option for the lowest quality calves;
The easing of export regulations for calves.

Are any of the above realistic solutions ?

The above are possible if somewhat doubtful solutions in my opinion.

I'm totally ignorant as to the finer points of "grass fed veal", I can only surmise that this is something similar to rose veal. Veal production is not a new concept in this country and one has to ask as to why it's more prominent. My main concerns regarding rose veal would be the production costs involved, all most non existent domestic market and the potential export of surplus product.
I'm informed that intensive feeding of cattle eg. Winter finishing is becoming less sustainable due to ever increasing costs. Therefore would another high imput and thus cost system such a rose veal production be any more profitable?
The domestic market could be another hard sell as I can't see the consumer warming to veal of any kind due to the negative association's with slaughtering calves. A total change of mindset would be required to create a sufficient domestic market
If the resulting veal cannot be sold domestically then what export markets are available? Producing a high cost product without a viable end market is not going to do much for our already fragile beef industy.

As for the option of a slaughter option for young calves be it government subsidized or otherwise I can see the resulting public outcry already. In a world where the general public is more and more removed from the economics of agriculture I can't see how condoning the slaughter of new borns will be positively received.
The vegans and other anti livestock farming militia are already well capable of finding issues to castigate us about without us assisting them. The practice of slaughtering calves should be hidden from the public spotlight not proposed as the solution to all our problems.

Finally I am again ignorant as to the finer points of live exporting calves, however I would have to question if export regulations are that draconian at the moment?
I understand that the entire live export issue is questioned on it's eithics and that getting boats certified can prove problematic but exports continue non the less.
The biggest barrier I can see to increased exports is calf prices exceeding the maximum export price. Every year exporters are outbid by lads at mart rings nationwide, this is of course part of a free market so I struggle to see how the outcome can be changed. Perhaps a government subsidy on calculators for the domestic calf buyers may be money well spent.

wrangler

Albert Johnson wrote: »

The above are possible if somewhat doubtful solutions in my opinion.

I'm totally ignorant as to the finer points of "grass fed veal", I can only surmise that this is something similar to rose veal. Veal production is not a new concept in this country and one has to ask as to why it's more prominent. My main concerns regarding rose veal would be the production costs involved, all most non existent domestic market and the potential export of surplus product.
I'm informed that intensive feeding of cattle eg. Winter finishing is becoming less sustainable due to ever increasing costs. Therefore would another high imput and thus cost system such a rose veal production be any more profitable?
The domestic market could be another hard sell as I can't see the consumer warming to veal of any kind due to the negative association's with slaughtering calves. A total change of mindset would be required to create a sufficient domestic market
If the resulting veal cannot be sold domestically then what export markets are available? Producing a high cost product without a viable end market is not going to do much for our already fragile beef industy.

As for the option of a slaughter option for young calves be it government subsidized or otherwise I can see the resulting public outcry already. In a world where the general public is more and more removed from the economics of agriculture I can't see how condoning the slaughter of new borns will be positively received.
The vegans and other anti livestock farming militia are already well capable of finding issues to castigate us about without us assisting them. The practice of slaughtering calves should be hidden from the public spotlight not proposed as the solution to all our problems.

Finally I am again ignorant as to the finer points of live exporting calves, however I would have to question if export regulations are that draconian at the moment?
I understand that the entire live export issue is questioned on it's eithics and that getting boats certified can prove problematic but exports continue non the less.
The biggest barrier I can see to increased exports is calf prices exceeding the maximum export price. Every year exporters are outbid by lads at mart rings nationwide, this is of course part of a free market so I struggle to see how the outcome can be changed. Perhaps a government subsidy on calculators for the domestic calf buyers may be money well spent.

I wonder how many at these meetings actually supply cattle to factories, or do they have any idea about the markets for cattle.
To save face now they'll soon have to deliver something

Albert Johnson

wrangler wrote: »

I wonder how many at these meetings actually supply cattle to factories, or do they have any idea about the markets for cattle.
To save face now they'll soon have to deliver something

I'm by no means an expert on the various markets available to the beef we produce. I do however understand that market forces apply and it's not as simple as demanding a higher price from the factories. Producer groups and further funding for research and marketing strategies are a worthwhile option in my opinion.

I would agree that it is time for the group in question to deliver something concrete. It's all good and well holding meetings and shouting into microphones as to how we're being taken for a ride but that doesn't put money in anyone's pocket.
In a sense there preaching to the converted and it's time to flex there supposed muscle with the powers that be. I admit that due to other commitments I have yet to attend a meeting but from videos and first hand accounts from attendees it looks to me to be an enlarged pub debate and becomes increasingly an "us versus them" issue. My main fear being that it will become yet another sounding board for pissed off beef men without the ability to deliver anything other than hair brained scheme's that have no chance of success.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mooooo wrote: »

I assume the meat from the netherlands is mainly dairy based? Was there during the summer where one farmer said that the price of beef, in his case cull cow's hadn't fallen despite the cull there

I think most of the culls just traveled east to Poland and continued milking rather than culled for beef.

Siamsa Sessions

You’re getting to the heart of it now lads: calculators and actual beef markets!

Mooooo

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I think most of the culls just traveled east to Poland and continued milking rather than culled for beef.

This lad would factory cow's once they reduced to a certain level of output

wrangler

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

You’re getting to the heart of it now lads: calculators and actual beef markets!

A difference of about ten percent between local and Irish, there was often a twenty percent difference with Irish lamb going in to France..... you have to go in cheaper to compete with a local market.
I see the BPM have a ticket to the next Beef forum....they'll be made up with that

Bass Reeves

alps wrote: »

The Beef Plan Movement’s view is that there are three possible solutions:
The establishment of a grass-fed veal industry in Ireland;
The introduction of a 14-day-old slaughter option for the lowest quality calves;
The easing of export regulations for calves.

Are any of the above realistic solutions ?

As Albert Johnson posted none of these are realistic options. No2 and 3 are market distorting as well so are against EU rules if state aided. There are a few different type of veal. White Veal in general is produced from calves fed a milk or milk substitute with slaughter at 18-20 weeks. Pink or Rose veal is grain based production to give a pink colour to the meat at 20-30 weeks. Grass fed veal would be a darker red. In general it is not produced in Europe but there is some in Canada and the USA.

Mooooo wrote: »

I assume the meat from the netherlands is mainly dairy based? Was there during the summer where one farmer said that the price of beef, in his case cull cow's hadn't fallen despite the cull there

Hard for cull cow prices to fall in the Netherlands. Hollands has the lowest priced beef prices in Europe even lower than Poland at times. Why so I do not know. There beef prices are back at around the 3/kg mark

wrangler wrote: »

Won't be long till we're dairy based here

Big difference between dairy bred beef in Ireland and Holland. Holland has an indoor dairy system Holstein based with high replacement rates. All cows would be put back in calf to Holstein breeding because of high replacement rate. In Ireland we are heading towards peak dairy so from now on 60%+ of the calves will be from beef/Dairy crossbreds.

wrangler wrote: »

I wonder how many at these meetings actually supply cattle to factories, or do they have any idea about the markets for cattle.
To save face now they'll soon have to deliver something

There seems a certain suckler based bias in there plans. A lot of there proposals seem to ignore the reality of where the market is heading. Will they have to deliver, I am not sure the IFA have delivered SFA to beef farmers and west of Ireland farmers for the last 10 years and seem to be able to survive.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Big difference between dairy bred beef in Ireland and Holland. Holland has an indoor dairy system Holstein based with high replacement rates. All cows would be put back in calf to Holstein breeding because of high replacement rate. In Ireland we are heading towards peak dairy so from now on 60%+ of the calves will be from beef/Dairy crossbreds.

There seems a certain suckler based bias in there plans. A lot of there proposals seem to ignore the reality of where the market is heading. Will they have to deliver, I am not sure the IFA have delivered SFA to beef farmers and west of Ireland farmers for the last 10 years and seem to be able to survive.

IFA'll survive alright....... well at least until the voluntary officers get sick of the poor expenses

Base price

Beef plan have registered as a limited company. Apparently this now allows them to represent farmers with DAFM and MII.
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/beef-plan-movement-officially-registers-as-a-company/

wrangler

Base price wrote: »

Beef plan have registered as a limited company. Apparently this now allows them to represent farmers with DAFM and MII.
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/beef-plan-movement-officially-registers-as-a-company/

That's what I meant by a ticket to the beef forum, I'd say it's more as protection for the leaders, if they do take action and something goes wrong they will be left vulnerable

older by the day

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/news/farming-news/a-hard-brexit-might-be-the-best-thing-for-our-dairy-industry-it-would-free-up-lots-of-land-37699061.html
. is that what teagasc and IF A and our government secretly want. Can someone put this up as a link.

alps

older by the day wrote: »

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/news/farming-news/a-hard-brexit-might-be-the-best-thing-for-our-dairy-industry-it-would-free-up-lots-of-land-37699061.html
. is that what teagasc and IF A and our government secretly want. Can someone put this up as a link.

How has this article anything possible to do with IFA or teagasc?

It's a report from a paper given by an auctioneer/advisor/accountant who makes a living out of these types of transactions...

jaymla627

older by the day wrote: »

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/news/farming-news/a-hard-brexit-might-be-the-best-thing-for-our-dairy-industry-it-would-free-up-lots-of-land-37699061.html
. is that what teagasc and IF A and our government secretly want. Can someone put this up as a link.

He’s on a totally different level to be fair,milk could be 20 cent a litre but his clients would still be clearing a grand a cow yearly and on the golf course a couple of days a week with the hired helped and contractors doing the heavy-lifting

alps

jaymla627 wrote: »

He’s on a totally different level to be fair,milk could be 20 cent a litre but his clients would still be clearing a grand a cow yearly and on the golf course a couple of days a week with the hired helped and contractors doing the heavy-lifting

At 20c/l cows would only produce a grands worth of milk...

patsy_mccabe

older by the day wrote: »

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/news/farming-news/a-hard-brexit-might-be-the-best-thing-for-our-dairy-industry-it-would-free-up-lots-of-land-37699061.html
. is that what teagasc and IF A and our government secretly want. Can someone put this up as a link.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/news/farming-news/a-hard-brexit-might-be-the-best-thing-for-our-dairy-industry-it-would-free-up-lots-of-land-37699061.html

Buford T. Justice XIX

alps wrote: »

How has this article anything possible to do with IFA or teagasc?

It's a report from a paper given by an auctioneer/advisor/accountant who makes a living out of these types of transactions...

Far be it from me to accuse the Indo of trolling but...

jaymla627

alps wrote: »

At 20c/l cows would only produce a grands worth of milk...

If you glanced over his paper from the conference yesterday you’d get the gist of it

older by the day

alps wrote: »

older by the day wrote: »

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/news/farming-news/a-hard-brexit-might-be-the-best-thing-for-our-dairy-industry-it-would-free-up-lots-of-land-37699061.html
. is that what teagasc and IF A and our government secretly want. Can someone put this up as a link.

How has this article anything possible to do with IFA or teagasc?


Because let's face it they have been letting the beef producers die out since the end of quotas, or can't you see that, before that they bought in the beef grid, before that they decoupled the premiums and the past few years the value of entitlements are being reduced, hunting around the country, putting penalties on rough land, 10% devalued there a couple of years ago and inflation. Very few outside of farming would be happy with out a pay rise now and again

Gawddawggonnit

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/news/farming-news/a-hard-brexit-might-be-the-best-thing-for-our-dairy-industry-it-would-free-up-lots-of-land-37699061.html

Reads like one of Sulla’s proscriptions...surely they could be humanely euthanised?

older by the day

Get Cromwell, to.. Hell or the milking parlour

Gawddawggonnit

older by the day wrote: »

Get Cromwell, to.. Hell or the milking parlour

Lol.