Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

15-01-2019 11:26AM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

As TMH says, a single data point like that is absolutely worthless, especially in the absence of full information about the role, person, etc. The fact that so many people here have such a poor grasp on very basic statistics is frankly alarming - you don't get to dismiss evidence just because you don't like it! A number of posters here have invoked conspiracy theories re the govt, Indo, etc re the actual figures - do they think the Commission and HSE are lying? If the published figures are incorrect, please let us know how much nurses earn on average?

Bear in mind that a considerable number of staff nurses will be at the top of the scale - takes 15 years to get there, so you would expect any nurse aged approx 37 or older to be at the top, and that's before location / qualification allowances, premium payments etc.

How come a single date point is worthless but talking about average salary i is not? when looking at the issue?

Tell me how · 15-01-2019 11:31AM

mariaalice wrote: »

How come a single date point is worthless but talking about average salary i is not? when looking at the issue?

Seriously?

Do you know what average means?

15-01-2019 11:35AM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

She will be sitting at home with feet up and part of Simon Harris's "staff" like all the rest of the government officials.

On higher wages than she ever earned working as a nurse.

But we can't talk about the government officials and there staff or expenses. Better to dirty the name of nurses.

She works as a nurse in Crumlin's children's hospital she has her own job careered.

hawkelady · 15-01-2019 11:36AM

I’m beginning to think that Padraig thinks that the nurse , at that stage of her life etc was paid adequately for those two weeks of work..

Tell me how · 15-01-2019 11:37AM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

She will be sitting at home with feet up and part of Simon Harris's "staff" like all the rest of the government officials.

On higher wages than she ever earned working as a nurse.

But we can't talk about the government officials and there staff or expenses. Better to dirty the name of nurses.

You're not doing nurses any favour with your argumentative approach.
It's as bad as those saying "nurses do nothing and should take a pay cut" except on the other side.

The above is false by the way.

Graces7 · 15-01-2019 11:39AM

Twenty Grand wrote: »

The health service is an absolute shambles. Successive governments have failed to solve it. A strike is needed
Essential surgeries will continue, elective surgery will be postponed.

My neighbour recently had a hip replacement after three years of waiting in sheer agony. Essential or elective?

A strike is never ever "needed" and the only ones who suffer are the sick and suffering, US!

Any nurse who strikes should be sacked. Period. Without pay.

But then what do we matter? shameful nurses.

15-01-2019 11:40AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Seriously?

Do you know what average means?

Yes of course I do but my point is how is it advancing the argument to say a single point of information is useless yet talking about averages is not, the average information has been rumbled anyway.

Its illuminating that a lot of the public are wise to the averaging of salaries as a spin, at a guess its to do with the better education level of the public in todays society.

Both pieces of information as are as useless as each other in making a decision.

Tell me how · 15-01-2019 11:45AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Twenty Grand wrote: »

The health service is an absolute shambles. Successive governments have failed to solve it. A strike is needed
Essential surgeries will continue, elective surgery will be postponed.

My neighbour recently had a hip replacement after three years of waiting in sheer agony. Essential or elective?

A strike is never ever "needed" and the only ones who suffer are the sick and suffering, US!

Any nurse who strikes should be sacked. Period. Without pay.

But then what do we matter? shameful nurses.

Graces7,
I think you are in the minority here. And that is not to say that everyone thinks they should get a rise. I think an across the board payrise is not appropriate but I think the system of unions representing a group and having a vote to decide whether or not to strike is effective democracy. I disagree with the outcome this time but I support the system for the most part.

Your castigating them is ignoring the fact that they are suggesting that they need to strike so as to get more money so as to attract more staff so as to provide better service so as to reduce waiting times.

Tell me how · 15-01-2019 11:47AM

mariaalice wrote: »

Yes of course I do but my point is how is it advancing the argument to say a single point of information is useless yet talking about averages is not, the average information has been rumbled anyway.

Its illuminating that a lot of the public are wise to the averaging of salaries as a spin, at a guess its to do with the better education level of the public in todays society.

Both pieces of information as are as useless as each other in making a decision.

Are they? I don't see it that way. I have been trying to see evidence that the average is incorrect but all I see is people saying ignore it and think of those on the lesser value.

You can't do that unless you admit that it is ok to have inefficiencies in higher wages which skew the average so much.

15-01-2019 11:54AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Are they? I don't see it that way. I have been trying to see evidence that the average is incorrect but all I see is people saying ignore it and think of those on the lesser value.

You can't do that unless you admit that it is ok to have inefficiencies in higher wages which skew the average so much.

Its not incorrect but it is made of about 20% to 25% allowance and over time, but the spin is to try and imply that the average salary is the salary, so if someone is on say 50k about 10k of that would be allowances and overtime.

hawkelady · 15-01-2019 12:02PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Twenty Grand wrote: »

The health service is an absolute shambles. Successive governments have failed to solve it. A strike is needed
Essential surgeries will continue, elective surgery will be postponed.

My neighbour recently had a hip replacement after three years of waiting in sheer agony. Essential or elective?

A strike is never ever "needed" and the only ones who suffer are the sick and suffering, US!

Any nurse who strikes should be sacked. Period. Without pay.

But then what do we matter? shameful nurses.

A sheer bitter post ! An uneducated one too !! You’ll be of an age where you’ll be needing nurses and hospital care not too far in the future ! Let’s hope the strikes are over for when that happens. I don’t think anyone in the country wants to see this happening but , as they say, we are where we are !
Btw, when the guards threatened strike action were you as quick to say that they should be sacked ?

Shefwedfan · 15-01-2019 12:07PM

Tell me how wrote: »

You're not doing nurses any favour with your argumentative approach.
It's as bad as those saying "nurses do nothing and should take a pay cut" except on the other side.

The above is false by the way.

Ahh come on, I am only having a laugh. I have no idea what the women does but it seems like this thread is full of wild accusations with nothing to back them up....might as well join the party

Kerry25x · 15-01-2019 12:20PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

To save you making the obvious point, hospital doctors - who are in contact with far more sick people than nurses - take sick leave at a fraction of the rate of nurses.

Hilarious. I wonder if you've ever spent much time in a hospital?

Nurses are the ones cleaning patients vomit, helping them go to the toilet, feeding them, washing them, suctioning their sputum, holding their hands when their upset or confused. If they're assigned to an isolation room full of patients with the flu or other airbourne diseases then they spend most of their day in that room.

Do you honestly believe that doctors are more exposed? Seems obvious to me that nurses would take more sick leave.

Twenty Grand · 15-01-2019 01:47PM

Kerry25x wrote: »

Hilarious. I wonder if you've ever spent much time in a hospital?

Nurses are the ones cleaning patients vomit, helping them go to the toilet, feeding them, washing them, suctioning their sputum, holding their hands when their upset or confused. If they're assigned to an isolation room full of patients with the flu or other airbourne diseases then they spend most of their day in that room.

Do you honestly believe that doctors are more exposed? Seems obvious to me that nurses would take more sick leave.

Can I also add that nurses are also the ones getting physically and sexually assaulted regularly by patients. They're the ones dealing with prisoners, drunks, drug addicts, and the mentally unwell and your run of the mill perverts.

Martina1991 · 15-01-2019 01:51PM

The salary pay scale has been posted here a number of times and yet posters keep finding evidence to suggest nurses earn more than they’re letting on. I said before that overtime shouldn’t be factored into the nursing salary as it is not fixed, but I would guess the vast majority of nurses do overtime in the form of nights of weekends.

I was not aware nurses earned extra money for the ward they work in and the extra qualifications they attain. This definitely skews the average salary to more than the basic scale and I think it should be acknowledged by nurses that it boosts a lot of their wages. But this information is being disregarded by some people here because it makes the nurses salary appear better than they would care to admit. This is why we’ve only seen payslips from newly qualified nurses and not those with their bonuses factored in.

I did my masters while working. I had to pay for it myself and definitely do not get a pay increase for doing it. I need it if I intend to seek promotion which there is few opportunities to do so. I will reiterate my point that I think the basic salary is lower than it should be, but nurses do have perks and advantages that other healthcare professions do not have as well.

Swings and roundabouts come to mind.

Padraig Mor · 15-01-2019 03:06PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You are very wrong, but please tell me source of your information?

No; no, I'm not. From HSE circulars re sponsorship of nurses on fulltime courses:

8. Annual Leave
In the case of fulltime courses sponsored employees shall retain their annual leave entitlements throughout the period of the programme.

9. Retention of Salary
A public health service employee who is sponsored in accordance with the terms of this circular will remain on the payroll of his/her sponsor. He/she will retain his/her existing basic salary plus specialist allowances throughout the period of the programme, and will continue to be entitled to normal incremental progression up to the maximum of that scale.

13. Availability for Work
Sponsored employees will be required to work by their sponsor during all periods outside of academic semesters, except when they are on annual leave....

So: nurses are not required to work while doing a postgrad. Once again, I seem to be the only one here backing up their statements with referenced facts.

mariaalice wrote:

How come a single date point is worthless but talking about average salary i is not? when looking at the issue?

Because.....mathematics. Very simple mathematics. The plural of anecdote is not data.

mariaalice wrote:

the average information has been rumbled anyway.

Has it?! By who? I haven't seen a single shred of comprehensive evidence produced to say the HSE figures are wrong - just a whole lot of, frankly, mathematically naive whimpering about averages being unrepresentative , and a whole lot of foot stomping.

Kerry25x wrote:

Hilarious. I wonder if you've ever spent much time in a hospital?

I worked in one for years as it happens.

Do you honestly believe that doctors are more exposed? Seems obvious to me that nurses would take more sick leave.

Well......yes. Doctors are exposed to far more patients than nurses. I would have that was obvious but hey....

Anyway, seems we're going around in circles here so I reckon I'll bow out now....

thomasdylan · 15-01-2019 03:23PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Well......yes. Doctors are exposed to far more patients than nurses. I would have that was obvious but hey....

Anyway, seems we're going around in circles here so I reckon I'll bow out now....

Doctor's aren't more exposed to patients. I'm a doctor. The reason why doctors have such low rates of sick leave is that most jobs are understaffed so it's hard to take days off even when you are sick, there's usually no-one to cover you, and NCHDs are completely transient and don;t want to rock the boat and want to make a good impression. Its probably one of the most unhealthy jobs because of the hours.

riclad · 15-01-2019 03:56PM

I do,nt think they,ll get a pay rise based on the fact if they get a
pay rise other civil servants ,teachers ect will expect a pay rise .
Public servants salarys are all connected .
Of course who know,s what happens if they go on strike ,
hospitals cannot function without nurse,s .
Peoples lives would be put at risk .
nurses have to pay 15 euro per day for a parking space .
If the dublin bus drivers stop working for 2 weeks it would be inconvenient but
it does not put peoples lives at risk .
Nursing in a public hospital is a tough job .
They also have to complete a college degree to be qualified as a nurse.

aido79 · 16-01-2019 11:42AM

riclad wrote: »

I do,nt think they,ll get a pay rise based on the fact if they get a
pay rise other civil servants ,teachers ect will expect a pay rise .
Public servants salarys are all connected .
Of course who know,s what happens if they go on strike ,
hospitals cannot function without nurse,s .
Peoples lives would be put at risk .
nurses have to pay 15 euro per day for a parking space .
If the dublin bus drivers stop working for 2 weeks it would be inconvenient but
it does not put peoples lives at risk .
Nursing in a public hospital is a tough job .
They also have to complete a college degree to be qualified as a nurse.

Comma ,
Apostrophe '

hawkelady · 16-01-2019 12:06PM

I see the meeting yesterday between government officials and unions reps ended without any agreements at all

Shefwedfan · 16-01-2019 01:08PM

hawkelady wrote: »

I see the meeting yesterday between government officials and unions reps ended without any agreements at all

No surprise. The Government approach to this is make the nurse the bad person.....

Expect the strike to go ahead and a big campaign by RTE in hospital going on about cancelled operations etc.....not a bad word against the Government or the incompetent HSE management.....anything to turn the public against the nurses

hmmm · 16-01-2019 10:21PM

Twenty Grand wrote: »

They're the ones dealing with prisoners, drunks, drug addicts, and the mentally unwell and your run of the mill perverts.

So do a lot of workers.

How will more pay fix this?

The public aren't stupid, they see this as yet another public sector shakedown.

The union leaders have taken a very naive approach in simply asking for more pay, because it's not something the government can give them as it will lead to a wave of knock-on pay demands in the public service.

Twenty Grand · 16-01-2019 10:25PM

hmmm wrote: »

So do a lot of workers.

How will more pay fix this?

The public aren't stupid, they see this as yet another public sector shakedown.

The union leaders have taken a very naive approach in simply asking for more pay, because it's not something the government can give them as it will lead to a wave of knock-on pay demands in the public service.

Name one other non medical profession that has to deal with all these people. I'll wait.

And as I've been saying for AGES now, nurses are understaffed. No one wants the jobs, long hours, crap pay and no thanks.

How do you propose solving this?

16-01-2019 10:25PM

That's it, it's not so much the lower paid nurses asking for more, I'd agree with them being given a raise.

It's everyone else will pile in for the same deal after.

hmmm · 16-01-2019 10:28PM

Twenty Grand wrote: »

No one wants the jobs, long hours, crap pay and no thanks.

That's simply not true, no matter how many times you repeat it. 6% annual turnover.

There's endless amounts of thanks. There isn't endless amounts of money we can pay to the public sector.

Tell me how · 16-01-2019 10:29PM

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Name one other non medical profession that has to deal with all these people. I'll wait.

And as I've been saying for AGES now, nurses are understaffed. No one wants the jobs, long hours, crap pay and no thanks.

How do you propose solving this?

Prison Officers, Gardai....

Twenty Grand · 17-01-2019 12:51AM

hmmm wrote: »

That's simply not true, no matter how many times you repeat it. 6% annual turnover.

There's endless amounts of thanks. There isn't endless amounts of money we can pay to the public sector.

Try again. As I said before turnover if where one nurse is replaced by another. When a nurse isn't replaced it's not turnover.

Four jobs available to every nurse looking for a job and getting worse. If there any other profession in the country where the ratio of African and Asian to Irish workers is skewed like nursing?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/health/four-irish-jobs-available-for-every-qualified-nurse-seeking-work-1.3573125

Tell me how wrote: »

Prison Officers, Gardai....

At least they're trained and armed to defend themselves if things get violent, unlike nurses, who are often left alone with violent and unpredictable people.

wrangler · 17-01-2019 12:59AM

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Name one other non medical profession that has to deal with all these people. I'll wait.

And as I've been saying for AGES now, nurses are understaffed. No one wants the jobs, long hours, crap pay and no thanks.

How do you propose solving this?

Is it not 38 hr weeks, 4-6 weeks holidays, Pay going up to 50000 and your pension is way over what the private sector gets for the same contributions.
What's not to like
Never mind working hard.....we all have to do that
I could work 38hr weeks wut sure what would I do after wednesday

Twenty Grand · 17-01-2019 02:31AM

wrangler wrote: »

Is it not 38 hr weeks, 4-6 weeks holidays, Pay going up to 50000 and your pension is way over what the private sector gets for the same contributions.
What's not to like
Never mind working hard.....we all have to do that
I could work 38hr weeks wut sure what would I do after wednesday

Ah you know, the physical and emotional toll, when you f*ck up people can die, when you do everything right people can die, the constant overcrowding, fighting with difficult patients, dealing with death, the night shifts followed by day shifts, you can only leave when your job is done,if your relief doesn't arrive or calls in sick you can be there for a lot longer, missing lunch breaks, missing social events, working Christmas, New Years etc. being exposed to illnesses, being exposed to physical and sexual violence, always being on your feet and many many more that are littered throughout this thread.

I'm surprised people aren't queuing up at the door to be honest (well, patients are by the thousands:rolleyes:)

thomasdylan · 17-01-2019 11:05AM

wrangler wrote: »

Is it not 38 hr weeks, 4-6 weeks holidays, Pay going up to 50000 and your pension is way over what the private sector gets for the same contributions.
What's not to like
Never mind working hard.....we all have to do that
I could work 38hr weeks wut sure what would I do after wednesday

There's a large amount of evidence that workers on rotating shift have an increased risk of stroke, MI, T2DM. There's an increased mortality of 10% for these workers.

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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