Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Shefwedfan · 14-01-2019 04:16PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree, HSE top brass is one of the worst public service black holes of bureaucracy out there - and there are many of them!

So, there is a palatable solution for both the nurses and the voting public.
Reduce HSE management salaries, perhaps cut the JSA dole (ie dole not based on PRSI contributions) and use this to fund the nurses' pay demands.

Everyone wins?

That's just too much sense....will never happen

Dakota Dan · 14-01-2019 10:59PM

wat24 wrote: »

The average salary really are averages due to the high earners who are usually in management. I’m 6 years qualified and on 36,000. Most of the nurses working with me are on around the same. There’s far too many bed managers and nurse managers working admin roles that aren’t hands on frontline care. That’s where the money is going

How many hours a week do you work for 36k?

gctest50 · 14-01-2019 11:15PM

wat24 wrote: »

The average salary really are averages due to the high earners who are usually in management. I’m 6 years qualified and on 36,000. Most of the nurses working with me are on around the same. There’s far too many bed managers and nurse managers working admin roles that aren’t hands on frontline care. That’s where the money is going

The admin don't be coming down battering patients though :

A total of 5,866 claims for compensation in respect of personal injury or other damages were made against the health authorities

Ninthlife · 14-01-2019 11:17PM

gctest50 wrote: »

The admin don't be coming down battering patients though :

A total of 5,866 claims for compensation in respect of personal injury or other damages were made against the health authorities

Those claims could be for slipping on wet floors or similar accidents

Not all are in any way related to the actions of nursing staff

Goldengirl · 14-01-2019 11:17PM

mikhail wrote: »

They're perceived as strike-happy, much like teachers.

Nurses have only striked on 2 occasions in Ireland since 1979, and both times emergency cover was sorted by nurses and no patient suffered harm .
I don't know about stats for teachers and I'm not interested in that , tbh.

Goldengirl · 14-01-2019 11:30PM

gctest50 wrote: »

The admin don't be coming down battering patients though :

A total of 5,866 claims for compensation in respect of personal injury or other damages were made against the health authorities

I don't know why you insist on trying to say that nurses' are going around battering people, quoting and showing pictures of those godforsaken nursing homes. That is an issue but a small number of tragic cases . The conversation is about nurses and pay rises, not withstanding the fact that a tiny minority of nurses' are struck off the register for the misconduct you are going on about...by the Irish Nurses and Midwifery Board, who are mostly nurses! I don't think they contribute much to the understaffing, and I would imagine most people are glad to see the back of them.
And as regards the personal injury claims, mostly slip and fall, and accidental injury , or medical negligence, I don't think it can be blamed on nurses , if at all!
Probably that ' lad' you were talking about who left his tools for someone to fall over

Shefwedfan · 14-01-2019 11:43PM

HSE unaware of how many qualified accountants are on its books while costs spiral out of control – Cowen

- Health spend €654 million over budget in 2018 -

- Children’s Hospital 250% over original budget -

Fianna Fáil spokesperson on Public Expenditure & Reform Barry Cowen has expressed alarm at the fact that the HSE does not appear to know how many qualified accountants it employs. Last year, the health service oversaw a budget overrun to the tune of €654m.

Deputy Cowen commented, “There is a clear administrative and management problem in the HSE. The lack of up to date, consistent and accurate data surrounding costs is staggering. Large companies compile monthly reports to identify where money is being spent so that any overspending can be quickly and easily identified. The lack of this kind of reporting system stifles management and restricts proper oversight and accountability.

“We still have no clear idea why the health spending last year was over budget by a whopping €654m. Similarly, the cost of the Children’s Hospital has rocketed from €404m to over €1.4bn at the last estimate.

“We need to get to the bottom of these overspends. Is it as a result of poor budgeting or is it down to cost control mechanisms? Whichever way you look at it the HSE needs a modern cost control and budgeting system led by experienced and qualified accountants and analysts.

“If we are to meet the challenge of reforming our health service we need to get a handle on where public money is being spent and who is being held accountable. This is not possible if we do not have a robust and real time cost control system in place”, concluded Deputy Cowen.

Goldengirl · 14-01-2019 11:46PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Just had a look at the Pay Commission report which includes the actual FACTS.

"The average earnings for all HSE Staff Nurses in 2017 was approximately €51,000 with allowances, overtime and other payments accounting for approximately 20% to 25% of these earnings."

Note this is only for Staff Nurse grade - not Senior Staff Nurse (average approx €62k) or managerial grades - so the most 'basic' nurses. Note also that overtime (as opposed to premium payments and allowances) makes up only a tiny fraction of the overall figure. If anything, the graph below suggests that the higher grades are underpaid - why bother being a Director of Nursing (used they not be called matrons?) for the sake of the few grand more it pays than being a relatively lowly Senior Staff Nurse?

Of course, we'll have posters here again trying to deny reality and telling us that averages aren't average etc......

Those Facts as you put it are showing the average staff nurse on 40 k as I said in an earlier post. The extra pay is made up of allowances for overtime and Night and weekend shifts, which not every nurse does as many services have been cut to 5 day week hours to save money. Also the average extra would be brought up by nurses' extra qualifications , and certainly yo get the amounts on this graph, one would be working every weekend ON night duty!
These are figures to try to justify NOT paying nurses as directed by Pascal O'Donoghue so really should be taken with a grain of salt.

Shefwedfan · 14-01-2019 11:47PM

gctest50 wrote: »

The admin don't be coming down battering patients though :

A total of 5,866 claims for compensation in respect of personal injury or other damages were made against the health authorities

How many are made by people falling over? It was published recently a cracked tile. Women fell over it, 20-30k, few years later came back and cracked tile still there and fell over it again, judge awarded her money again

Nurses responsible for cracked tiles?

That’s one of thousands of similar compo cases

Martina1991 · 14-01-2019 11:51PM

Goldengirl wrote:

Those Facts as you put it are showing the average staff nurse on 40 k as I said in an earlier post. The extra pay is made up of allowances for overtime and Night and weekend shifts, which not every nurse does as many services have been cut to 5 day week hours to save money. Also the average extra would be brought up by nurses' extra qualifications , and certainly yo get the amounts on this graph, one would be working every weekend ON night duty!.

I asked this earlier but i dont think it was answered.

What are these extra qualifications that nurses earn extra for?

Twenty Grand · 14-01-2019 11:56PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

I asked this earlier but i dont think it was answered.

What are these extra qualifications that nurses earn extra for?

https://www.nmbi.ie/Education/post-registration-courses

Here's a list that I believe is current.
Basically lots of post grads in various areas of medicine. Some are courses over months, though most nurses go for masters as they get them paid for (so long as they pass, and stay so many years after completion)

Goldengirl · 15-01-2019 12:09AM

road_high wrote: »

I wouldn't put Nursing on the same plane as Teaching- technically, academically there is just no comparison. Someone teaching Leaving Cert Physics or Maths at Higher Level....i know someone that trained as a Nurse in England having failed pass Maths here. To be blunt about it the same academic capacity is not required as they are completely different professions using different skills and education.

Her people skills and communication skills would not have been measured at Leaving Cert level...could that Maths teacher deal with stressed patients and relatives and advise junior staff on end of life care. Apples and oranges, you cannot compare differing skills and talents as you say yourself. A nurse who has failed maths would have to pass an extra module ( in England too!) as calculations are basic to any safe nurse. But you have consigned that person to the dump having failed pass Maths here.
To be blunt about it , myself , a lot of people who may have got the points with some to spare may not not be suited to nursing, and as one who could have done teaching ,engineering or architecture once said , it really is a profession that requires a broad level of education in order to deal with people at a very high level at what can be the most stressful time of a person's life .
That is why it is a shame that people like you who clearly can't see beyond their Leaving Cert points can't understand that in order to keep recruiting quality people like this to what is a varied , if daunting career , they need to be paid properly. You cannot place Maths and Physics above every other subject and diss everyone who does not excel in these subjects. What a very boring and homogenous world that would be?

Martina1991 · 15-01-2019 12:09AM

Twenty Grand wrote:

Here's a list that I believe is current. Basically lots of post grads in various areas of medicine. Some are courses over months, though most nurses go for masters as they get them paid for (so long as they pass, and stay so many years after completion)

How much would each course be worth on top of the salary or would it depend on the qualification?

Twenty Grand · 15-01-2019 12:27AM

Martina1991 wrote: »

How much would each course be worth on top of the salary or would it depend on the qualification?

Depends, but sure most employers would pay for professional development as it's beneficial in the long run.
Most of the work is done on the weekend and days off. Tough going working three 13 hour shifts and 2 or more days in college ( and that would be a good week)

Edit: in response to the poster above, I got an A in physics, no thanks to my dope of a physics teacher. I still wouldn't hack it as a nurse if I tried. I don't have the patience or the constitution for it.

Goldengirl · 15-01-2019 12:39AM

Mooooo wrote: »

As I said hire more nurses. If they are doing more hours than the standard week they are getting overtime or allowances for it. There are so many hours in the week, they all have to be covered so more nurses on a standard number of hours makes sense, particularly in a&e etc

Talk about missing the point ! Can't hire more can't keep what we have!

Graces7 · 15-01-2019 07:18AM

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2019/0114/1023210-nurses-industrial-action/

Cancelling surgery etc. Great way for nurses to act :eek:

gctest50 · 15-01-2019 07:22AM

Graces7 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2019/0114/1023210-nurses-industrial-action/

Cancelling surgery etc. Great way for nurses to act :eek:

Those ones are just vultures

Nice SIPTU nurses are not striking :

SIPTU, which represents 4,000 nurses, is not taking industrial action, and has pledged to pursue higher pay for members through procedures consistent with the Public Service Stability Agreement and the Public Service Pay Commission.

Twenty Grand · 15-01-2019 09:22AM

Graces7 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2019/0114/1023210-nurses-industrial-action/

Cancelling surgery etc. Great way for nurses to act :eek:

The health service is an absolute shambles. Successive governments have failed to solve it. A strike is needed
Essential surgeries will continue, elective surgery will be postponed.

gctest50 wrote: »

Those ones are just vultures

Nice SIPTU nurses are not striking :

SIPTU, which represents 4,000 nurses, is not taking industrial action, and has pledged to pursue higher pay for members through procedures consistent with the Public Service Stability Agreement and the Public Service Pay Commission.

Wonder will many SIPTU nurses pass the picket...

evolving_doors · 15-01-2019 09:27AM

gctest50 wrote: »

Those ones are just vultures

Nice SIPTU nurses are not striking :

SIPTU, which represents 4,000 nurses, is not taking industrial action, and has pledged to pursue higher pay for members through procedures consistent with the Public Service Stability Agreement and the Public Service Pay Commission.

those 4,000 siptu are probably the sector that works in private hospitals...

The difference is that they [private hospitals] operate as individual employers legally and have the right to negotiate individually with the representative organisations on behalf of their employees.

Under the Industrial Relations Act 1990, strike action can only be taken in furtherance or contemplation of a trade dispute. Therefore, to take industrial action, a union and its members must have a dispute with the employer, in this case each individual private hospital.

Padraig Mor · 15-01-2019 10:28AM

Goldengirl wrote: »

Those Facts as you put it are showing the average staff nurse on 40 k as I said in an earlier post. The extra pay is made up of allowances for overtime and Night and weekend shifts, which not every nurse does as many services have been cut to 5 day week hours to save money. Also the average extra would be brought up by nurses' extra qualifications , and certainly yo get the amounts on this graph, one would be working every weekend ON night duty!
These are figures to try to justify NOT paying nurses as directed by Pascal O'Donoghue so really should be taken with a grain of salt.

It really is amazing the intellectual leaps that people will go to to deny what's written in black and white. Average staff nurse pay is €51k, average senior staff nurse ~€62k - these are the facts as reported by the Pay Commission to which the nursing unions contributed. These sames unions have never once denied this level of pay in the media which tells its own story. If people here believe that nurses are paid less on average, please feel free to provide your own data backed evidence to that effect - anecdotes re pay of individuals are worthless. I mean, if they're paid so 'poorly', surely there's plenty of evidence of this - the union will have published a report to that effect? And to claim that it would require "working every weekend ON night duty" is just simply untrue.

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Depends, but sure most employers would pay for professional development as it's beneficial in the long run.
Most of the work is done on the weekend and days off. Tough going working three 13 hour shifts and 2 or more days in college ( and that would be a good week)
.

Unless I'm very wrong (and I don't believe I am), nurses receive 100% time off for any approved full time post grad courses they attend with full pay (and fees paid), accrual of increments and service as well as holiday entitlements, and increased salary in the form of a qualification allowance when they return. The only 'downsides' are that they don't earn any premium hours payments, and must work in the sector for a time (2 years?) when they finish.

hawkelady · 15-01-2019 10:36AM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

It really is amazing the intellectual leaps that people will go to to deny what's written in black and white. Average staff nurse pay is €51k, average senior staff nurse ~€62k - these are the facts as reported by the Pay Commission to which the nursing unions contributed. These sames unions have never once denied this level of pay in the media which tells its own story. If people here believe that nurses are paid less on average, please feel free to provide your own data backed evidence to that effect - anecdotes re pay of individuals are worthless. I mean, if they're paid so 'poorly', surely there's plenty of evidence of this - the union will have published a report to that effect? And to claim that it would require "working every weekend ON night duty" is just simply untrue.

Unless I'm very wrong (and I don't believe I am), nurses receive 100% time off for any approved full time post grad courses they attend with full pay (and fees paid), accrual of increments and service as well as holiday entitlements, and increased salary in the form of a qualification allowance when they return. The only 'downsides' are that they don't earn any premium hours payments, and must work in the sector for a time (2 years?) when they finish.

A nurse put up her wage slip along with all her details regarding years in the sector etc. ffs ! Do you not believe that ?
She came home with €1120 for a fortnights work ! Do you believe she was adequately paid?

Tell me how · 15-01-2019 10:41AM

hawkelady wrote: »

A nurse put up her wage slip along with all her details regarding years in the sector etc. ffs ! Do you not believe that ?
She came home with €1120 for a fortnights work ! Do you believe she was adequately paid?

With due respect to that nurse, that was a single person putting up their slip.

The point made is how the 'average' has been discussed in the public domain by representatives from both sides and has not been disputed. Given the number of nurses on circa 40k, it would imply that many are on much greater than the staff nurse average.

Understandably, these payslips are not going to be shown here.

(This is not a debate about increasing the basic rate, which personally I would be in favour of, it is looking for an across the board pay rise which I think is not appropriate).

hawkelady · 15-01-2019 10:48AM

Tell me how wrote: »

With due respect to that nurse, that was a single person putting up their slip.

The point made is how the 'average' has been discussed in the public domain by representatives from both sides and has not been disputed. Given the number of nurses on circa 40k, it would imply that many are on much greater than the staff nurse average.

Understandably, these payslips are not going to be shown here.

(This is not a debate about increasing the basic rate, which personally I would be in favour of, it is looking for an across the board pay rise which I think is not appropriate).

Fair enough , I’d still like to know if Padraig thinks that nurse was adequately paid ?

15-01-2019 10:48AM

It just getting in to he said she said at this stage so a bit pointless.

I would be all for redundancy in management and HR of the HSE particularly for the ones who whinge about nurses pay and use the employment conditions and pay of nurses as the reason they cant do their management job, doubly so if they if they are married to someone who is in another public service job such as teaching.

I have acutely come across this before both working in the public services one in the HSE one a teacher one half of couple acutely got in to a rant about other workers in the HSE but not themselves, its everybody else in the HSE that is over paid except themselves of course.

Tell me how · 15-01-2019 10:51AM

mariaalice wrote: »

It just getting in to he said she said at this stage so a bit pointless.

I would be all for redundancy in management and HR of the HSE particularly for the ones who whinge about nurses pay and use the employment conditions and pay of nurses as the reason they cant do job, doubly so if they if they are married to someone who is in another public service job such as teaching.

I have acutely come across this before both working in the public services one in the HSE one a teacher one half of couple acutely got in to a rant about other workers in the HSE but not themselves, its everybody else in the HSE that is over paid except themselves of course.

Think there is a lot of this going on.
It also happens in private sector where people think their profession is often much more difficult than many others think it is.

Padraig Mor · 15-01-2019 10:51AM

hawkelady wrote: »

A nurse put up her wage slip along with all her details regarding years in the sector etc. ffs ! Do you not believe that ?
She came home with €1120 for a fortnights work ! Do you believe she was adequately paid?

As TMH says, a single data point like that is absolutely worthless, especially in the absence of full information about the role, person, etc. The fact that so many people here have such a poor grasp on very basic statistics is frankly alarming - you don't get to dismiss evidence just because you don't like it! A number of posters here have invoked conspiracy theories re the govt, Indo, etc re the actual figures - do they think the Commission and HSE are lying? If the published figures are incorrect, please let us know how much nurses earn on average?

Tell me how wrote: »

The point made is how the 'average' has been discussed in the public domain by representatives from both sides and has not been disputed. Given the number of nurses on circa 40k, it would imply that many are on much greater than the staff nurse average..

Bear in mind that a considerable number of staff nurses will be at the top of the scale - takes 15 years to get there, so you would expect any nurse aged approx 37 or older to be at the top, and that's before location / qualification allowances, premium payments etc.

Shefwedfan · 15-01-2019 10:52AM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

It really is amazing the intellectual leaps that people will go to to deny what's written in black and white. Average staff nurse pay is €51k, average senior staff nurse ~€62k - these are the facts as reported by the Pay Commission to which the nursing unions contributed. These sames unions have never once denied this level of pay in the media which tells its own story. If people here believe that nurses are paid less on average, please feel free to provide your own data backed evidence to that effect - anecdotes re pay of individuals are worthless. I mean, if they're paid so 'poorly', surely there's plenty of evidence of this - the union will have published a report to that effect? And to claim that it would require "working every weekend ON night duty" is just simply untrue.

As I already said but you failed to reply to me. All your chart proves is a nurse who want to work 9-5 Monday to Friday is on 40k. After that they have to work unreasonable hours to gain extra. Is that a fact or do you disagree with that?

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Unless I'm very wrong (and I don't believe I am), nurses receive 100% time off for any approved full time post grad courses they attend with full pay (and fees paid), accrual of increments and service as well as holiday entitlements, and increased salary in the form of a qualification allowance when they return. The only 'downsides' are that they don't earn any premium hours payments, and must work in the sector for a time (2 years?) when they finish.

You are very wrong, but please tell me source of your information?

Shefwedfan · 15-01-2019 10:55AM

Graces7 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2019/0114/1023210-nurses-industrial-action/

Cancelling surgery etc. Great way for nurses to act :eek:

You publish a RTE link? the PR department for the Government.

You not find it strange in any of these RTE articles it is always the nurse/doctor/driver that is at fault and never the government.

Standard government getting the Private worker to gang up against the Public worker without resolving any issues...

If you want to see how RTE deals with the governent look at that gob***t on Late Late Show doing an "interview" with Varadkar.....

hawkelady · 15-01-2019 11:11AM

Isn’t Simon Harris married to a nurse ...a bit awkward at the dinner table

Shefwedfan · 15-01-2019 11:25AM

hawkelady wrote: »

Isn’t Simon Harris married to a nurse ...a bit awkward at the dinner table

She will be sitting at home with feet up and part of Simon Harris's "staff" like all the rest of the government officials.

On higher wages than she ever earned working as a nurse.

But we can't talk about the government officials and there staff or expenses. Better to dirty the name of nurses.

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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