Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Shefwedfan · 13-01-2019 10:22PM

RoseHayes wrote: »

Actually there is a shortage of Primary Teachers in Ireland. And the Government would look and abroad if they could, but Fluent Irish speaking Asian Primary Teachers proficient im Music, literacy, maths, science etc aren't in great supply!

At least with nurses they can attract from Asia/Africa.

Have you a link to UK needing 40k nurses?

Please suggest an exact figure you think nurses should be paid?

Why do they need fluent Irish speaking teachers?

The other subjects, shock horror but other countries do teach those subjects as well

Goldengirl · 14-01-2019 02:03AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Compared to a new entrant nurse in the English NHS, a new entrant nurse in Ireland earns 21 per cent more in basic pay based on current exchange rates. While allowances and promotional opportunities differ across jurisdictions, a nurse at the top of the HSE staff nurse scale would earn 39 per cent more than a nurse at the top of the NHS England B and 5 scale.

“More broadly, OECD nursing remuneration data show that, in purchasing power parity terms, Irish nursing pay (including allowances and premium payments) between 2007 and 2017 was consistently on a par with Australia and higher than New Zealand, Canada and the UK,” notes the spending review.

It also maintains that 82 per cent of all nurses and midwives are on basic salaries of more than €40,000 exclusive of allowances or premium payments.

This would be because their BASIC salary goes up incrementally every year they work until it hits 12 years service, which is classed as MAX, then it rattles around on a long service increment until they hit 20 years service and they get a senior staff nurse wage. So if all the young ones are leaving that would most probably account for the 82 % on salaries more than €40 k , but it's not their BASIC wage!

Goldengirl · 14-01-2019 02:06AM

RoseHayes wrote: »

It's so obvious that this thread is littered with nurses

Any valid argument raised against a pay rise for nurses they get bullied.

Gardai should get paid the same as nurses, they start at 23k!!!

" Littered with nurses"! What a condescending , arrogant comment!
It's a debate about nurse's pay...should we wait for your permission to comment?

If you say something like above is it bullying on your part, or mine, if I return that one cannot equate Garda training with a nursing degree just as five years for a doctor does not equate with Primary school teaching and a H.Dip in Ed.... you are not comparing like for like and only trying to annoy or get a rise out of people. Is that why you have been banned before?

hawkelady · 14-01-2019 11:22AM

GraceLehane wrote: »

That makes sense.

Employ more nurses to improve conditions.

Try keep up to date .... they are struggling to employ more nurses cause of the poor wages .. that’s their argument

Graces7 · 14-01-2019 12:06PM

What do folk make of this?

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0113/1022957-nurses-pay-doherty/

Header is "Doherty: Nurses have not said they are not happy with pay"

Please read the article? Interesting..

gmisk · 14-01-2019 12:16PM

Graces7 wrote: »

What do folk make of this?

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0113/1022957-nurses-pay-doherty/

Header is "Doherty: Nurses have not said they are not happy with pay"

Please read the article? Interesting..

I read the article.....I was like stephen donnelly....he isnt FF....on no wait he is now!
Utterly shameless, after he made comments about FF ""jobs for the boys, bonuses for the boys, lack of accountability and two fingers to the Dáil".
https://www.joe.ie/news/stephen-donnelly-badly-caught-evening-comments-fianna-fail-576039

There is an interview where he talks about the fact nurses are already paid enough, that fella does so many u-turns I am surprised he doesnt need a nurse to help him with his whiplash!
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/nurses-and-doctors-await-commission-report-on-staff-pay-1.3580267

con___manx1 · 14-01-2019 12:20PM

Ipso wrote: »

How much extra tax are you willing to pay for their rise?

Nurses work shift 24/7 they should be getting much more than what they are getting. Dont be worried about your own pocket. We all pay tax.

gmisk · 14-01-2019 12:28PM

GraceLehane wrote: »

Nurses are paid enough.

It's the conditions that aren't favourable.

You think all nurses are paid enough?
I disagree.

I think an average of €31,112 is fairly poor.
https://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Salary
it is the new starts who have been royally screwed over, especially by unions, that should be looked at as a more important area IMO when it comes to pay.

I agree the conditions are a bigger issue.

hawkelady · 14-01-2019 12:30PM

GraceLehane wrote: »

Nurses are paid enough.

It's the conditions that aren't favourable.

Why can’t they recruit them so ???

gmisk · 14-01-2019 12:51PM

GraceLehane wrote: »

gmisk wrote: »

You think all nurses are paid enough?
I ]

Let's be realistic here nurses aren't the brain surgeons or doctors in the hospital.

That figure quoted is base pay and before average allowances of 4 to 6k.

Most engineers start on less which is laughable !

I think the Government should just pool their e resources into a campaign in recruiting foreign nurses.

You think they would be queueing up to move to ireland with that kind of money given the cost of rent in most cities in ireland?

Shefwedfan · 14-01-2019 01:34PM

GraceLehane wrote: »

gmisk wrote: »

You think all nurses are paid enough?
I ]

Let's be realistic here nurses aren't the brain surgeons or doctors in the hospital.

That figure quoted is base pay and before average allowances of 4 to 6k.

Most engineers start on less which is laughable !

I think the Government should just pool their e resources into a campaign in recruiting foreign nurses.

A foreign nurse will get a moving fee. Once they are over here they will still be on the same pay structure the current nurses are on. Or are you asking for the Government to pay less to foreign nurses?

gmisk · 14-01-2019 01:36PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

GraceLehane wrote: »

A foreign nurse will get a moving fee. Once they are over here they will still be on the same pay structure the current nurses are on. Or are you asking for the Government to pay less to foreign nurses?

Of course I am not, no idea where you got that suggestion from.
Do foreign nurses get a moving fee now? Or is that something you are suggesting?

Padraig Mor · 14-01-2019 02:18PM

Goldengirl wrote: »

This would be because their BASIC salary goes up incrementally every year they work until it hits 12 years service, which is classed as MAX, then it rattles around on a long service increment until they hit 20 years service and they get a senior staff nurse wage. So if all the young ones are leaving that would most probably account for the 82 % on salaries more than €40 k , but it's not their BASIC wage!

Just had a look at the Pay Commission report which includes the actual FACTS.

"The average earnings for all HSE Staff Nurses in 2017 was approximately €51,000 with allowances, overtime and other payments accounting for approximately 20% to 25% of these earnings."

Note this is only for Staff Nurse grade - not Senior Staff Nurse (average approx €62k) or managerial grades - so the most 'basic' nurses. Note also that overtime (as opposed to premium payments and allowances) makes up only a tiny fraction of the overall figure. If anything, the graph below suggests that the higher grades are underpaid - why bother being a Director of Nursing (used they not be called matrons?) for the sake of the few grand more it pays than being a relatively lowly Senior Staff Nurse?

Of course, we'll have posters here again trying to deny reality and telling us that averages aren't average etc......

14-01-2019 02:36PM

Anyone have any idea where the simmering dislike of nurses along with the slight underlining nastiness of posters like Padraig Mor comes from? a few more similar posters on this thread.

Union spin has very little to do with front line staff.

Shefwedfan · 14-01-2019 02:47PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Anyone have any idea where the simmering dislike of nurses along with the slight underlining nastiness of posters like Padraig Mor comes from? a few more similar posters on this thread.

Union spin has very little to do with front line staff.

No idea....

All I can tell from last post is the standard wage is 40k......nothing like the 55k posted here

If a nurse then is willing to sign off their personal life and work nights/weekend etc they can up that wage to maybe 50k....

Would love to see the face on a few people around here if they got told they could earn up to an extra 10k but they have to works nights and weekend etc for the year.....plus overtime to get to that as well......

P.S. I ain't a nurse, nothing to do with nursing before that chestnut gets fired at me

Shefwedfan · 14-01-2019 02:51PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Just had a look at the Pay Commission report which includes the actual FACTS.

"The average earnings for all HSE Staff Nurses in 2017 was approximately €51,000 with allowances, overtime and other payments accounting for approximately 20% to 25% of these earnings."

Note this is only for Staff Nurse grade - not Senior Staff Nurse (average approx €62k) or managerial grades - so the most 'basic' nurses. Note also that overtime (as opposed to premium payments and allowances) makes up only a tiny fraction of the overall figure. If anything, the graph below suggests that the higher grades are underpaid - why bother being a Director of Nursing (used they not be called matrons?) for the sake of the few grand more it pays than being a relatively lowly Senior Staff Nurse?

Of course, we'll have posters here again trying to deny reality and telling us that averages aren't average etc......

How many nights shifts and weekends do you current work? how many Christmas Day? Christmas Eve's? New Year Days? etc do you work?

Also the most "basic" nurse as you put it still has a degree. Over 57% of people currently living in Ireland have no degree.

So the most "basic" nurse isn't really that basic is it?

How many people in Ireland are earning over 51k basic and don't have a degree and work 9-5?

mikhail · 14-01-2019 02:52PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Anyone have any idea where the simmering dislike of nurses along with the slight underlining nastiness of posters like Padraig Mor comes from? a few more similar posters on this thread.

Union spin has very little to do with front line staff.

They're perceived as strike-happy, much like teachers.

lawred2 · 14-01-2019 02:53PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How many nights shifts and weekends do you current work? how many Christmas Day? Christmas Eve's? New Year Days? etc do you work?

Also the most "basic" nurse as you put it still has a degree. Over 57% of people currently living in Ireland have no degree.

So the most "basic" nurse isn't really that basic is it?

How many people in Ireland are earning over 51k basic and don't have a degree and work 9-5?

ye what?

43% of people living in Ireland have a degree?

really?

sounds high

Padraig Mor · 14-01-2019 02:58PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Anyone have any idea where the simmering dislike of nurses along with the slight underlining nastiness of posters like Padraig Mor comes from? a few more similar posters on this thread.

Union spin has very little to do with front line staff.

I'd appreciate if you withdrew that remark. I don't believe that I've made any comment that can be construed as 'nasty' on this thread. Indeed, I don't believe I've given any view on whether nurses' pay should be increased or not. What I have done, however, is point out that it's literally impossible to say "nurses deserve a payrise" without first quantifying what nurses are actually paid, and further showed that all the available factual data shows that nurses are, on average, paid a lot more than the majority of people realise. Unfortunately, certain posters don't like the facts of the debate so resort to name calling and denial of the cold hard figures. As of yet, I have yet to see any 'pro pay rise' poster produce evidence that nurses are paid less than I have said.

Shefwedfan · 14-01-2019 03:00PM

lawred2 wrote: »

ye what?

43% of people living in Ireland have a degree?

really?

sounds high

The 2016 OECD report tracked the educational attainment levels of, among others, 23 EU countries, in 2015.
It found that, among 25-64 year-olds (post third-level, working-age adults):

Ireland had the second-highest percentage (43%) with a third-level education, behind the UK (44%)
The fourth-highest percentage (21%) with a Bachelor’s degree
The 23rd-highest (fourth-lowest) percentage (8%) with a Master’s degree

14-01-2019 03:03PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I'd appreciate if you withdrew that remark. I don't believe that I've made any comment that can be construed as 'nasty' on this thread. Indeed, I don't believe I've given any view on whether nurses' pay should be increased or not. What I have done, however, is point out that it's literally impossible to say "nurses deserve a payrise" without first quantifying what nurses are actually paid, and further showed that all the available factual data shows that nurses are, on average, paid a lot more than the majority of people realise. Unfortunately, certain posters don't like the facts of the debate so resort to name calling and denial of the cold hard figures. As of yet, I have yet to see any 'pro pay rise' poster produce evidence that nurses are paid less than I have said.

You intimated that they abuse sick leave and implied that the health services would be better off with agency nurses among other things, you also appeared to have a problem with paid for post graduate study and the fact that can work their hours over 3 days.

Shefwedfan · 14-01-2019 03:05PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I'd appreciate if you withdrew that remark. I don't believe that I've made any comment that can be construed as 'nasty' on this thread. Indeed, I don't believe I've given any view on whether nurses' pay should be increased or not. What I have done, however, is point out that it's literally impossible to say "nurses deserve a payrise" without first quantifying what nurses are actually paid, and further showed that all the available factual data shows that nurses are, on average, paid a lot more than the majority of people realise. Unfortunately, certain posters don't like the facts of the debate so resort to name calling and denial of the cold hard figures. As of yet, I have yet to see any 'pro pay rise' poster produce evidence that nurses are paid less than I have said.

It's not really facts is it? it is a slide that shows nothing apart from a nurse who wants to work 9-5 Monday to Friday will earn 40k.

Goldengirl · 14-01-2019 03:07PM

Graces7 wrote: »

What do folk make of this?

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0113/1022957-nurses-pay-doherty/

Header is "Doherty: Nurses have not said they are not happy with pay"

Please read the article? Interesting..

What is interesting is that the " salary increase " for new entrants is not a salary increase.
It is a return to new entrant scale pre FEMPI ,which is on a par with their senior colleagues, and what was hard fought for by the INMO and other nursing unions to reverse the two tier system of pay brought in after the crash.

Padraig Mor · 14-01-2019 03:13PM

mariaalice wrote: »

You intimated that they abuse sick leave

They do (along with support staff). In particular, abuse of maternity related sick leave is rampant, just look at any report on the issue. To save you making the obvious point, hospital doctors - who are in contact with far more sick people than nurses - take sick leave at a fraction of the rate of nurses.

and implied that the health services would be better off with agency nurses among other things.

You twist or misunderstand what I wrote. What I said (in the context of a discussion on agency nurses) is that the HSE employs agency nurses in many cases because it's ultimately cheaper than employing permanent nurses.

ELM327 · 14-01-2019 03:20PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How many nights shifts and weekends do you current work? how many Christmas Day? Christmas Eve's? New Year Days? etc do you work?

Also the most "basic" nurse as you put it still has a degree. Over 57% of people currently living in Ireland have no degree.

So the most "basic" nurse isn't really that basic is it?

How many people in Ireland are earning over 51k basic and don't have a degree and work 9-5?

Me, for one. I work monday to friday but start and leave whenever I want really beyond core hours (generally 10am/whenever my first meeting is, until say 4pm)
But I'm not sure what that has to do with nursing?

I'm supportive of the nurses, they do a terrific job and they should get a pay rise. But it should be cost neutral to the state, and funded by cuts elsewhere. Preferably at HSE management level.

Shefwedfan · 14-01-2019 03:21PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

They do (along with support staff). In particular, abuse of maternity related sick leave is rampant, just look at any report on the issue. To save you making the obvious point, hospital doctors - who are in contact with far more sick people than nurses - take sick leave at a fraction of the rate of nurses.

So now the requirement is for nurses not to have children?

Padraig Mor wrote: »

You twist or misunderstand what I wrote. What I said (in the context of a discussion on agency nurses) is that the HSE employs agency nurses in many cases because it's ultimately cheaper than employing permanent nurses.

Agency nursing is not cheaper. It is more expensive. Who told you it was cheaper?

The reason agency nursing is used(like in Private companies) is the head count is not on the system. So if anyone asks how many nurses then is is X number. They will use agency nursing to resolve staff issues without having to hire someone

This is the same in other companies, they will have contractors, so if work drops off they will let them go without redundancy or been on news for 40 people let go from X.....

If the HSE was run properly they would hire the correct amount of nurses and thus reduce agency requirements and actually save money. But the HSE is not managed correctly

hawkelady · 14-01-2019 03:21PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

They do (along with support staff). In particular, abuse of maternity related sick leave is rampant, just look at any report on the issue. To save you making the obvious point, hospital doctors - who are in contact with far more sick people than nurses - take sick leave at a fraction of the rate of nurses.

You twist or misunderstand what I wrote. What I said (in the context of a discussion on agency nurses) is that the HSE employs agency nurses in many cases because it's ultimately cheaper than employing permanent nurses.

Ha, you’re mask is slipping !! Do you have a link to that study regarding abusing sick leave? Or is it just all in your head !

14-01-2019 03:22PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

They do (along with support staff). In particular, abuse of maternity related sick leave is rampant, just look at any report on the issue. To save you making the obvious point, hospital doctors - who are in contact with far more sick people than nurses - take sick leave at a fraction of the rate of nurses.

You twist or misunderstand what I wrote. What I said (in the context of a discussion on agency nurses) is that the HSE employs agency nurses in many cases because it's ultimately cheaper than employing permanent nurses.

Employing agency is shortermism and not cheaper in the long run the HSE is a gold mine for agency's. That is an aside point, I don't see what the sick leave has got to do with a pay rise, the sick leave is something that should be managed by the employers.

A dispassionate factual based debate on the issue is not what you were doing.

Shefwedfan · 14-01-2019 03:27PM

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm supportive of the nurses, they do a terrific job and they should get a pay rise. But it should be cost neutral to the state, and funded by cuts elsewhere. Preferably at HSE management level.

As you said the HSE is run badly and has been for years. The wastage as a company is terrible. If it was managed properly they would have more than enought to provide increases to staff without looking at tax payer

It is easier for Government to turn the nurse into the villian. They have done this every other time while the HSE management continue to earn big wages and not resolve any issues

ELM327 · 14-01-2019 03:35PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As you said the HSE is run badly and has been for years. The wastage as a company is terrible. If it was managed properly they would have more than enought to provide increases to staff without looking at tax payer

It is easier for Government to turn the nurse into the villian. They have done this every other time while the HSE management continue to earn big wages and not resolve any issues

Agree, HSE top brass is one of the worst public service black holes of bureaucracy out there - and there are many of them!

So, there is a palatable solution for both the nurses and the voting public.
Reduce HSE management salaries, perhaps cut the JSA dole (ie dole not based on PRSI contributions) and use this to fund the nurses' pay demands.

Everyone wins?

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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