Where are the electric cars for the masses?

Andy From Sligo · 02-01-2019 5:07pm #1

just checked the price on the new Hyundai all electric Kona - from 37,000 euro!

These electric vehicles are nearly always out of the reach of the normal consumer but why?, why dont they come cheaper? - its not new technology and every now and again you hear that the government want more people to buy an EV

but if you can buy a 3cylinder (and you can) for around the 10,000 - 12,000 euro mark, then why such a a big price gap between a petrol car and an EV?

I think an EV car would appeal more to people on a budget because of the thought of not having to put petrol in it but the high cost outlay would put them off and they wouldnt even bother sitting down and working out the high cost/outlay of purchase but they will be saving on fuel .

is it really the technology of EV keeping the price of these EV's in the high price bracket or is it something else thats keeping the price high?

Kona = from €37,650.00
Nissan Leaf = from €28,690.00
Renault Zoe = from €24,990
VW e-Golf = from 45,995 EUR

Bar the renault Twizzy
(but who would want to be seen driving one of them lol

) = from €9,995.00

ELM327 · 02-01-2019 5:08pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

just checked the price on the new Hyundai all electric Kona - from 37,000 euro!

These electric vehicles are nearly always out of the reach of the normal consumer but why?, why dont they come cheaper? - its not new technology and every now and again you hear that the government want more people to buy an EV

but if you can buy a 3cylinder (and you can) for around the 10,000 - 12,000 euro mark, then why such a a big price gap between a petrol car and an EV?

I think an EV car would appeal more to people on a budget because of the thought of not having to put petrol in it but the high cost outlay would put them off and they wouldnt even bother sitting down and working out the high cost/outlay of purchase but they will be saving on fuel .

is it really the technology of EV keeping the price of these EV's in the high price bracket or is it something else thats keeping the price high?

Kona = from €37,650.00
Nissan Leaf = from €28,690.00
Renault Zoe = from €24,990
VW e-Golf = from 45,995 EUR

Bar the renault Twizzy
(but who would want to be seen driving one of them lol ) = from €9,995.00

Show me a 3 cylinder petrol Kona for 10-12k?

Creamy Goodness · 02-01-2019 5:10pm

it's not new tech as you say but there's staggering R&D that'll take 3-5-10 years to recoup. also where is the 10k 3cylinder car that's of the same fit and finish as a Kona?

there's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario at play too. can't have cheaper EV until you can manufacture at petrol scale. can't manufacture at petrol scale without huge demand.

Del2005 · 02-01-2019 5:19pm

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

it's not new tech as you say but there's staggering R&D that'll take 3-5-10 years to recoup. also where is the 10k 3cylinder car that's of the same fit and finish as a Kona?

If you notice what cars are bought very few are bought on "fit and finish" most are bought on how much tax you pay or how much will it cost. Most people are more interested in the number on the plate then the car.

Here's one for 10k.

https://www.volkswagen.ie/en/models/up.html

Creamy Goodness · 02-01-2019 5:22pm

Del2005 wrote: »

If you notice what cars are bought very few are bought on "fit and finish" most are bought on how much tax you pay or how much will it cost. Most people are more interested in the number on the plate then the car.

Here's one for 10k.

https://www.volkswagen.ie/en/models/up.html

still doesn't answer my question though. the Up is nowhere near the same quality as the Kona.

I don't really care to the reasons why people buy a car, comparing a 37K Kona to a 13k Up (link you provides shows the starting Up! price as 12,750 not 10k) is not comparing like with like.

And I'd actually argue that fit and finish is important, it's the reason why a Golf is one of the top selling cars in Ireland (perception is king here) and not a Sandero

.

steinbock123 · 02-01-2019 5:44pm

If you buy an electric car you get a big chunk (5K) off VRT, is there a VAT reduction also, I'm not sure? Half price tolls, low motor tax, FREE charging at public charge points,free parking if you're charging, AND no BIK tax if it's a company car. The question that has to be asked is, why all these incentives? The answer : because if these incentives weren't there, NOBODY(or very few) would buy an EV. At the moment they suit certain people with certain commutes, but that's all.
I remember the first "mobile" phone I ever saw. It was like a large motorcycle battery in a cradle, it had a separate handset connected by a squiggly wire just like our landline phone at home. It had a rubber aerial about 18 inches long. And you had to wave it about to get the best signal.And then we got mobile phones that were about the size, and indeed the weight , of a brick. I had one myself. And now , we have iPhones and smaller, they're now the norm.
I firmly believe that Electric cars are at the "brick stage" at the moment.
Universal acceptance of them won't arrive until they're at the iPhone stage, if you understand what I'm trying to say.
Either that, or (more likely) when the government tax us out of our ICE motors.

samih · 02-01-2019 5:51pm

The Up is close to 13k and the up and coming eUp refresh will be 20k. Still quite a big price gap but you could actually save the 7k difference in running costs in the lifetime of the car.

Petrol model averages 5l per 100 km so about EUR 7.50 per hundred kilometers. The eUP uses about 13 kWh/100 km which is at the current night rates is about 1 Euro. The price parity is reached at around 100000 km mark and if you kept the eUP until 200k km you would save about 6k (fuel cost 13000 less but the car 7000 more).

The purchase price parity will continue to shrink as the BEVs mature and eventually you can buy EV for the same price as a conventional car. What happens to fuel/road taxation by then we don't know.

Andy From Sligo · 02-01-2019 6:58pm

I dont know where i give the impression of a Kona for around 10 grand - no, I was just stating that there are 3cyl petrol brand new cars out there that can be bought for around the 10grand price (not Kona quality tho)

Creamy Goodness · 02-01-2019 7:15pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I dont know where i give the impression of a Kona for around 10 grand - no, I was just stating that there are 3cyl petrol brand new cars out there that can be bought for around the 10grand price (not Kona quality tho)

But that’s the problem, you’re comparing a €37000 car with a €12000 car. Whilst they do the same thing when you dig even a fraction deeper the reasons for the cost difference is apparent. Similar comparison would be a €250 chrome book laptop vs a €7000 MacBook Pro. But I really like the mobile phone analogy above.

rolion · 02-01-2019 7:21pm

Andy, good points you have there … but your query covers the second hand market ,as well !?
Because, I feel you will find a great range of cars with a decent quality and a very healthy price attached to them...unless, as someone said above, you're looking at the first part of the plate.

ewj1978 · 02-01-2019 7:25pm

yes people can buy 10k cars. Would i buy a new 3 cylinder car for 10k?
No.
The thought of puttering along in some cheap econobox with the pulling power of a dead hedgehog.

unkel · 02-01-2019 7:36pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

just checked the price on the new Hyundai all electric Kona - from 37,000 euro!

Yes that is a lot of money. But that Kona has a real life range of nearly 500km. It is aimed at people who have a huge commute / do a very high mileage. These people will recoup thousands a year in fuel savings. There is also a much cheaper Kona with a smaller capacity battery, but that one is not coming to Ireland

For €17k you have the cheapest brand new petrol Dacia Duster, also a small crossover. And the cheapest petrol Kona itself is €21k

Also the above Kona EV is very powerful with acceleration times about the same as a Golf GTI turbo petrol

A more realistic comparison is the Hyundai Ioniq I bought 2 years ago for €25k on the road, a similar price to a similar size diesel Skoda Octavia (that has a lower spec)

Not until next year will we see EVs that are cheaper to buy than a similar diesel / petrol. And of course massive savings (in money and to the environment) start after you buy one...

slave1 · 02-01-2019 8:46pm

steinbock123 wrote: »

If you buy an electric car you get a big chunk (5K) off VRT, is there a VAT reduction also, I'm not sure? Half price tolls, low motor tax, FREE charging at public charge points,free parking if you're charging, AND no BIK tax if it's a company car. The question that has to be asked is, why all these incentives?....

Whilst your full post makes a good point this segment is littered with errors, some tolls have no reduction and there is an annual cap, you do not get free parking when charging in the vast majority of cases and there is a ceiling on BIK that caught plenty out when introduced this year.
There is no VAT reduction on EVs and there is a grant from home charger install. If you buy new in Ireland there is a €5k grant for individuals.
Whilst public charging is free the current infrastructure is a joke and not fit for current purpose never mind 3/5 years time.

slave1 · 02-01-2019 8:49pm

Whilst EVs are more expensive the running costs are much less and if your commute is suited to and EV there are significant savings to be made.

Oh, some environmental impact too, much better walking around town with EVs on the road compared to ICE emissions

unkel · 02-01-2019 9:10pm

slave1 wrote: »

much better walking around town with EVs on the road compared to ICE cancerous diesel emissions

FYP

02-01-2019 9:19pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

just checked the price on the new Hyundai all electric Kona - from 37,000 euro!

These electric vehicles are nearly always out of the reach of the normal consumer but why?, why dont they come cheaper? - its not new technology and every now and again you hear that the government want more people to buy an EV

Current gen electrics compare well to the cost of similar diesel cars, 37 K for the kona is steep though for sure and not a price I'd pay for a Hyundai no matter how much range it has especially if the interior looks as horrid as it does in the pics it looks nasty but I reserve final judgement for when I actually sit in and drive it.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

but if you can buy a 3cylinder (and you can) for around the 10,000 - 12,000 euro mark, then why such a a big price gap between a petrol car and an EV?

Higher cost of batteries, but show me a car for 10 K ?, the EV is usually much better to drive, much higher torque than a 3 cylinder, also usually higher equipped cars + with an ev you don't have to change gears and can get into a warm car in Winter or cool in Summer. + you can save a lot on fuel. Adding a parking heater on a diesel would cost around 1500 euro's and another 1000-1500 for an auto box as you don't have to change gears in an EV.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I think an EV car would appeal more to people on a budget because of the thought of not having to put petrol in it but the high cost outlay would put them off and they wouldnt even bother sitting down and working out the high cost/outlay of purchase but they will be saving on fuel .

Usually the EV is not much more expensive than the Diesel equivalent and usually higher equipped + as I said you don't have to pay for auto box ,and EV will appeal to a lot more people when charge times improve and range and there are many more models to choose from.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

is it really the technology of EV keeping the price of these EV's in the high price bracket or is it something else thats keeping the price high?

Again they're not much more expensive then a high spec diesel Equivalent but the kona is a bit pricey.

Kona = from €37,650.00
Nissan Leaf = from €28,690.00
Renault Zoe = from €24,990
VW e-Golf = from 45,995 EUR

Bar the renault Twizzy
(but who would want to be seen driving one of them lol ) = from €9,995.00

Indeed it would be nice to see a lot more cars in the 15-20K price bracket but I can't see it for a while, I think manufacturers are aiming to catch the people that would otherwise buy a diesel.

fuel savings can be considerable especially the more mileage you drive, especially with work charging. For the majority of the time I can make my 142 Km commute entirely for free via work charging saving a nice few quid over even the most efficient diesel, sometimes I charge at home for an hour or two this time of year when I put the boot down.

It's also more profitable to sell ICE cars so manufacturers are dragging their heals, they are interested in only profit and couldn't care less what they sell as long as it makes profit and a lot of profit, companies don't like selling something for little profit.

But on the + at least Nissan and hyundai are heading in the right direction offering cars with decent power, Renault on the other hand are still stuck in the days with the idea, no power = more fuel saving but this is not necessary with electrics as their fuel is is far cheaper. Renault have even gone so far as to offer a lower power version of the Zoe 75 Hp with a 0-100 in about 19 seconds, not a hope in hell I would drive it, anyway, I hope more power is a trend that continues.

Shefwedfan · 02-01-2019 9:34pm

How long since we had one of these thread? or actually I think it was part of one of the other threads....maybe the VW thread.....

Just in regards to the eGolf, it doesn't include the 10k off so it starts at 35k....a snip at that price

Mike9832 · 02-01-2019 10:32pm

Battery cost is relevant

The 10k grant covers the cost of even the largest 64kWh battery

Auto giants are fleecing people right now, 10 years ago batteries were expensive today they are getting 60kWh packs for under 8k all in

In no world does a Kona or e-Golf cost 35k to make

Electric motor, controller, inverter are well understood tech and cheap to produce, rest is your standard ICE car stuff

I would love to see the cost breakdown of Kona or e-Golf

How the sales people keep a straight face charging 45k for them pre 10k grant ðŸ˜‚

Ridiculous

Andy From Sligo · 02-01-2019 11:53pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

Battery cost is relevant

The 10k grant covers the cost of even the largest 64kWh battery

Auto giants are fleecing people right now, 10 years ago batteries were expensive today they are getting 60kWh packs for under 8k all in

In no world does a Kona or e-Golf cost 35k to make

Electric motor, controller, inverter are well understood tech and cheap to produce, rest is your standard ICE car stuff

I would love to see the cost breakdown of Kona or e-Golf

How the sales people keep a straight face charging 45k for them pre 10k grant &#55357;&#56834;

Ridiculous

yes indeed, wouldnt it be great to see a breakdown of cost to make

unkel · 03-01-2019 12:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

show me a car for 10 K ?

Seat MII list €10,445 - small citycar

Dacia Sandero list €10,990 - Not that small a car either

Shefwedfan · 03-01-2019 12:10am

VW are announcing the Neo at the momemt, it will be priced to sell but the starting price will be 25k

Low cost petrol is not the target. Look at cost of diesel cars and that more of guideline

In regards to higher cost, the manufacturers are saying the high cost is because they can’t mass produced so components costs are higher. That’s the reason, I’m not saying it’s true or not

VW are saying because the Neo will spawn at least 27 different models and millions of cars from the same components they can reduce costs....

Andy From Sligo · 03-01-2019 12:16am

I still personally think (and maybe most wont agree with me) a manufacturer (or couple of manufacturers need to bring out some 'Budget/entry level' EV cars for the market at around selling price of near the 12grand mark. (not looking like the twizzy which is horrid)

if that mean cutting down to the very basics so be it. So even if its distance is 140km-150km on a charge , no reversing sensors, just a bog standard radio/mp3 head unit fitted into the dash, no heated seats, no sat nav, no air conditioning (just a bog standard heater/demister for the windows) no other mod cons that the dearer EV's seem to be equipped with, then it might just keep that price comparable to the cheaper end of the petrol car market and more people will change over.

Andy From Sligo · 03-01-2019 12:19am

so am I deducting that really at the moment the EV car market is not really competing for the market of petrol ICE share of the market and is competing with the market of Diesel cars then?

Shefwedfan · 03-01-2019 12:23am

Their is cheap BEV, in China and India etc. with the safety refs over here we don’t get

VW, I don’t know any other dealers plans, expect to have a Skoda electric at circa 18k...
Dyson are going to launch theirs, probably cheap

A few other companies around with the idea of a cheap car but very few have launched. There was one that the front flipped open and you sat in, think it was linked here, but don’t think it was released

Shefwedfan · 03-01-2019 12:24am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so am I deducting that really at the moment the EV car market is not really competing for the market of petrol ICE share of the market and is competing with the market of Diesel cars then?

Diesel sales go down BEV sales go up....

The target at moment is diesel so the manufacturers will go after that, also a higher entry point on cost. Petrol will be next but a few years out

Shefwedfan · 03-01-2019 12:27am

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/29/cheapest-electric-cars-available-comparisons-thoughts/

But old but a good starting point

Andy From Sligo · 03-01-2019 12:28am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Their is cheap BEV, in China and India etc. with the safety refs over here we don’t get

VW, I don’t know any other dealers plans, expect to have a Skoda electric at circa 18k...
Dyson are going to launch theirs, probably cheap

A few other companies around with the idea of a cheap car but very few have launched. There was one that the front flipped open and you sat in, think it was linked here, but don’t think it was released

we could have a Dacia type EV could we not? - a little while ago Dacia were doing a sandero ICE for nearly 10grand when all the other makes were 12grand/15grand upwards. - I think Dacia realised the need for a budget entry level no thrills car and went for it and it done well , well they could replicate it in the EV market maybe?

Andy From Sligo · 03-01-2019 12:32am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/29/cheapest-electric-cars-available-comparisons-thoughts/

But old but a good starting point

oh gosh though the look of some of those EV's in that though - dont expect the look of a Maserati or anything but some of these cheap EV's - well they just look terrible (IMHO)

troyzer · 03-01-2019 12:34am

I think you're all missing the original point that for the person who can only spend €10-€15k on a car, there is no EV option.

The OP wasn't trying to suggest that the Kona and a 3 cylinder **** box were equivalent but that the same person who buys a 3 cylinder **** box isn't being catered to by the manufacturers.

I can't afford a new car. I bought a 4 year old Fiesta in November for €7k and that's my absolute limit at the moment. I'm a recent graduate and my spending power will increase in time but the bottom line is that I'm the best part of €20k away from even a basic electric car.

You can get brand new Toyota Hybrids for less than €20k. This is my next step up but I'd rather an electric.

Shefwedfan · 03-01-2019 12:38am

troyzer wrote: »

I think you're all missing the original point that for the person who can only spend €10-€15k on a car, there is no EV option.

The OP wasn't trying to suggest that the Kona and a 3 cylinder **** box were equivalent but that the same person who buys a 3 cylinder **** box isn't being catered to by the manufacturers.

I can't afford a new car. I bought a 4 year old Fiesta in November for €7k and that's my absolute limit at the moment. I'm a recent graduate and my spending power will increase in time but the bottom line is that I'm the best part of €20k away from even a basic electric car.

You can get brand new Toyota Hybrids for less than €20k. This is my next step up but I'd rather an electric.

You bought second hand so other people can buy second hand

I bought a Leaf 2011 for under 7k with 30k Km on it. One with 100k km sold for 2-3k a while back....

Loads of cheap Zoe if you pay battery rental....

Brand new they are not available at cheap prices

Andy From Sligo · 03-01-2019 12:41am

troyzer wrote: »

I think you're all missing the original point that for the person who can only spend €10-€15k on a car, there is no EV option.

The OP wasn't trying to suggest that the Kona and a 3 cylinder **** box were equivalent but that the same person who buys a 3 cylinder **** box isn't being catered to by the manufacturers.

I can't afford a new car. I bought a 4 year old Fiesta in November for €7k and that's my absolute limit at the moment. I'm a recent graduate and my spending power will increase in time but the bottom line is that I'm the best part of €20k away from even a basic electric car.

You can get brand new Toyota Hybrids for less than €20k. This is my next step up but I'd rather an electric.

well put , good way of explaining it / the issue - your right , no alternative EV option in the €10-€15k price bracket (bar renault twizy ! )

Where are the electric cars for the masses?

Comments