Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

FreudianSlippers · 11-12-2018 12:52PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

you could say the same about 90% of these votes.

Uninformed, perhaps; misled, no.

did you read the Nice Treaty cover to cover? if you did fair play to ya.

I did. I also discussed it on this website in this forum and explained the changes that were made between the first and second referenda.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 11-12-2018 01:04PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Uninformed, perhaps; mislead, no.

I did. I also discussed it on this website in this forum and explained the changes that were made between the first and second referenda.

well as i said fair play to ya, but i didn't.
was i misinformed, misled, or uninformed, or lied to?

we could open up all those referendums again, and not just the EU ones? don't know about you, but i really feel lied to regarding that whole Gay marraige fiasco.

A Dub in Glasgo · 11-12-2018 01:05PM

Shelga wrote: »

Is she actually going to be allowed to delay and delay for another month?

That is her intention, to close off a GE or 2nd vote and put an ultimatum to Parliament - this deal or no deal

lawred2 · 11-12-2018 01:06PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

well as i said fair play to ya, but i didn't.
was i misinformed, misled, or uninformed, or lied to?

we could open up all those referendums again, and not just the EU ones? don't know about you, but i really feel lied to regarding that whole Gay marraige fiasco.

wut?

dr.fuzzenstein · 11-12-2018 01:11PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

the people's vote eh?

so the first/only vote was what? must have been aliens, spiritual entities, or holograms who voted in that one?
why not have the best of 3?
or maybe best of 5?

Imagine a train. Imagine that for some reason the line splits and a democratic vote is taken amongst the passengers which way to go and they voted for left.
After a short distance it turns out that going left leads to a straight 100 meter plunge off a cliff, but turning right takes them safely to their destination.
Is it unreasonable to hold a second vote which will yield a different outcome based on new information that wasn't available at the first vote?
I think not.
Of course there will always be the ones that will sit with crossed arms and mutter "still think we should have gone left" as the train pulls into the station, but there will always be crazies that would rather plunge 100 meters to their death rather than admit they got it wrong.
Humankind has survived because we don't rigidly stick to a course of action once it has been decided, even if it means our doom, but because we have this nifty ability to adapt and adjust to changing circumstances.
At the very leats it was voted to go left instead of right and the train got bogged down on the way to the cliff.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 11-12-2018 01:16PM

lawred2 wrote: »

wut?

ya and what about the poor Scots?
they were misled and lied to also.

https://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/issues/16-march-2017/dwp-admits-misleading-public-scottish-independence/

that whole project fear was a disgrace.

i think they deserve a "people's" vote, or is that only reserved for the english?

Wheres Me Jumper? · 11-12-2018 01:20PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Imagine a train. Imagine that for some reason the line splits and a democratic vote is taken amongst the passengers which way to go and they voted for left.
After a short distance it turns out that going left leads to a straight 100 meter plunge off a cliff, but turning right takes them safely to their destination.
Is it unreasonable to hold a second vote which will yield a different outcome based on new information that wasn't available at the first vote?
I think not.
Of course there will always be the ones that will sit with crossed arms and mutter "still think we should have gone right" as the train pulls into the station, but there will always be crazies that would rather plunge 100 meters to their death rather than admit they got it wrong.
Humankind has survived because we don't rigidly stick to a course of action once it has been decided, even if it means our doom, but because we have this nifty ability to adapt and adjust to changing circumstances.
At the very leats it was voted to go left instead of right and the train got bogged down on the way to the cliff.

but Brexiters do not swallow your apocalyptic prediction?
as far as they are concerned this choo choo of yours heading to the promised land.

hill16bhoy · 11-12-2018 01:20PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

That is her intention, to close off a GE or 2nd vote and put an ultimatum to Parliament - this deal or no deal

One other point of view I read last night was that May buying time could force Corbyn and Labour's hands one way or the other.

If Corbyn falls in with the majority view within Labour, which is for a People's Vote, May can then spin it that Labour have "betrayed" their Brexiteer voters and she (or whichever Tory eventuallly replaces her) can use this against them going forward.

If Corbyn continues to obfuscate, Labour could move against him, or at least continue with the shambles where the clear majority of the party are anti-Brexit yet the leadership is effectively pro-Brexit, and widespread disenchantment among the majority of Labour voters who are pro-Remain sets in.

Either way, May might be betting that it could basically drag Labour down with her.

I think this is only a by-product of what she's doing, though.

Zubeneschamali · 11-12-2018 01:22PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

we could open up all those referendums again, and not just the EU ones? don't know about you, but i really feel lied to regarding that whole Gay marraige fiasco.

Feel free to agitate for one - but we both know the reason there will not be a 2nd is because the result would be another crushing win for Yes, and it would be a waste of time.

The Brexiteers want to prevent a 2nd referendum because they would lose. They only fluked the 1st one because no-one thought they would win and it seemed a safe protest vote.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 11-12-2018 01:26PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Feel free to agitate for one - but we both know the reason there will not be a 2nd is because the result would be another crushing win for Yes, and it would be a waste of time.

The Brexiteers want to prevent a 2nd referendum because they would lose. They only fluked the 1st one because no-one thought they would win and it seemed a safe protest vote.

maybe they shouldn't allow those type of people to vote at all, or maybe their votes should be discounted depending on their level of education?

and the REMOANERS just want a 2nd cut at it, cos they LOST!

WomanSkirtFan8 · 11-12-2018 01:31PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

lest we forget many Brits still see Dunkirk as a military victory.

While also conveniently forgetting that in reality it was actually a tactical retreat from nazi-occupied France at the time.

First Up · 11-12-2018 01:32PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

but Brexiters do not swallow your apocalyptic prediction?
as far as they are concerned this choo choo of yours heading to the promised land.

They remind me of some passengers on a cruise ship who commandeered a lifeboat because they objected to being required to turn up for dinner at 7pm instead of a time of their choosing.

Now in the lifeboat, they can't agree where to go and in any case none of them knows how to navigate. Plus they are running out of the food they stole from the buffet and are trying to radio the ship to ask for more. When the captain explains that the ship is now far way and keeping to its schedule, the lifeboat occupants accuse him of inhumanity and vindictiveness.

The captain invites them to eat the emergency rations in the lifeboat.

FreudianSlippers · 11-12-2018 01:34PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

well as i said fair play to ya, but i didn't.
was i misinformed, misled, or uninformed, or lied to?

Uninformed perhaps. As for the rest, no - luckily we have fairly good and unbiased election literature in this country.

Our first vote against Nice resulted in treaty change and our first vote against Lisbon resulted in a much needed clarification.

I'm not suggesting that the electorate should be required to read the treaty prior to voting, but the government should not be (and luckily has not) been misleading so far in this country.

The opposition parties, however, have been - look at the minimum wage (etc.) arguments from Lisbon.

we could open up all those referendums again, and not just the EU ones?

No we really couldn't - there is really nothing analogous in Ireland to the Brexit referendum... particularly outside (read: Russian) interference.

don't know about you, but i really feel lied to regarding that whole Gay marraige fiasco.

Huh?

MrMusician18 · 11-12-2018 01:36PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

well as i said fair play to ya, but i didn't.
was i misinformed, misled, or uninformed, or lied to?

we could open up all those referendums again, and not just the EU ones? don't know about you, but i really feel lied to regarding that whole Gay marraige fiasco.

What gay marriage fiasco? Of all the referendums we've held here you've probably picked one of the most well understood, simple ones. Yes to allow SSM, no to prohibit it. It's the best kind of question to put to a public vote, not particularly nuanced and well understood.

Compare that to the treaties we have been asked to vote on, dense legal text that if you look hard enough you'll be able to find something to interpret as objectionable. That's of course if you look at all, with most voting placing their trust in the campaigners that appealed best to them emotionally.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 11-12-2018 01:37PM

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

While also conveniently forgetting that in reality it was actually a tactical retreat from nazi-occupied France at the time.

indeed it was, and a huge tactical error by Hitler.

First Up · 11-12-2018 01:48PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Feel free to agitate for one - but we both know the reason there will not be a 2nd is because the result would be another crushing win for Yes, and it would be a waste of time.

The Brexiteers want to prevent a 2nd referendum because they would lose. They only fluked the 1st one because no-one thought they would win and it seemed a safe protest vote.

maybe they shouldn't allow those type of people to vote at all, or maybe their votes should be discounted depending on their level of education?

Or maybe they should stick with representative democracy and elect people to take these complicated decisions.

Professor Moriarty · 11-12-2018 01:49PM

John Major telling it like it is in a speech last night:

“...a hard border, now or at the end of a long transition period or at any time would be disastrous. Peace isn’t secure, it never is and any new border would be a focus for the wild men on the fringes to reactivate old disputes and hatreds that should be laid to rest forever.”

Awesomeness · 11-12-2018 01:53PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Feel free to agitate for one - but we both know the reason there will not be a 2nd is because the result would be another crushing win for Yes, and it would be a waste of time.

The Brexiteers want to prevent a 2nd referendum because they would lose. They only fluked the 1st one because no-one thought they would win and it seemed a safe protest vote.

I believe remain would win a new referendum but to say the fluked the first one is not correct. You cant fluke a vote.

There were a number of factors, brexiteers peddling lies, people taking the result for granted etc. But to say it was fluked is to signify it is unlikely to happen again.

It will though if nothing changes. People need to exercise their right to vote. People need to educate themselves. People need to be called on their BS.

They may have cheated and lied but it was not by chance

seamus · 11-12-2018 01:56PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

just when you thought the Brits couldn't look more silly, Treesa is doing the rounds of Euro capitals in a desperate bid to renegotiate the deal. has this woman no self-respect?

As we now know, there is no grand plan. No overarching strategy here, no pincer movement that the UK is going to reveal that will prove Brexit was a great idea and things will get better.

Given just how absolutely clueless the UK parliament proved themselves to be on the topic of Northern Ireland, it's fair to assume that they are even more clueless about the EU, about what it is, how it works, and why it does what it does.

May is on a tour of EU leaders because she genuinely believes that this is how she is going to get the deal amended.

It doesn't matter how many times it is explained. The UK parliament doesn't get it. It believes that it is negotiating individually with 27 countries, 25 of whom are subservient to Germany and France. She's in Germany today because she thinks Merkel is in charge of the EU.

It's actually that simple - they have a 16 year-old Daily Mail-reader level of comprehension of the EU.

Strazdas · 11-12-2018 01:56PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

John Major telling it like it is in a speech last night:

“...a hard border, now or at the end of a long transition period or at any time would be disastrous. Peace isn’t secure, it never is and any new border would be a focus for the wild men on the fringes to reactivate old disputes and hatreds that should be laid to rest forever.”

He has given a new speech in Dublin in the last hour or so saying the UK should immediately pull Article 50 and take things from there.

Sounds eminently sensible, but no doubt the Brexiteers and their press buddies would react with apoplectic rage.

LuckyLloyd · 11-12-2018 02:02PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

well as i said fair play to ya, but i didn't.
was i misinformed, misled, or uninformed, or lied to?

we could open up all those referendums again, and not just the EU ones? don't know about you, but i really feel lied to regarding that whole Gay marraige fiasco.

For Nice, Marriage Equality or any other constitutional change you are asked to vote on as an Irish citizen you receive two key benefits denied the British people in 2016:

1) A clear unambiguous question of constitutional change backed up by a parliament able and willing to pass legislation to effect it
2) An impartial and well run referendum commission that effectively offers unbiased objective information on the question of constitutional change

The UK asked its people an open ended question with no parliamentary consensus or draft legislation in place to enact it. Sheer lunacy. There is now a deal on the table, or "reality". It seems perfectly acceptable to put it to the people again now that "Brexit" actually has a negotiated definition.

Folkstonian · 11-12-2018 02:02PM

seamus wrote: »

As we now know, there is no grand plan. No overarching strategy here, no pincer movement that the UK is going to reveal that will prove Brexit was a great idea and things will get better.

Given just how absolutely clueless the UK parliament proved themselves to be on the topic of Northern Ireland, it's fair to assume that they are even more clueless about the EU, about what it is, how it works, and why it does what it does.

May is on a tour of EU leaders because she genuinely believes that this is how she is going to get the deal amended.

It doesn't matter how many times it is explained. The UK parliament doesn't get it. It believes that it is negotiating individually with 27 countries, 25 of whom are subservient to Germany and France. She's in Germany today because she thinks Merkel is in charge of the EU.

It's actually that simple - they have a 16 year-old Daily Mail-reader level of comprehension of the EU.

Whilst I do think it’s wholly futile for Theresa May to be going back to the continent this late in the day, the EU doesn’t (for now, at least) build its own policies from the ground up. It relies on input and direction from the member states.

So while I think it’s pointless now, I don’t know why people scoff at any leader in theory trying to influence the EU’s position by speaking to individual heads of state and having them communicate their positions at the European Council

UsedToWait · 11-12-2018 02:04PM

Awesomeness wrote: »

I believe remain would win a new referendum but to say the fluked the first one is not correct. You cant fluke a vote.

There were a number of factors, brexiteers peddling lies, people taking the result for granted etc. But to say it was fluked is to signify it is unlikely to happen again.

It will though if nothing changes. People need to exercise their right to vote. People need to educate themselves. People need to be called on their BS.

They may have cheated and lied but it was not by chance

The main reason I'd be against a 2nd ref at this point is that neither the British government, nor the main opposition have dealt with the outside interference in the first one.

As usual, the excellent Carole Cadwalladr and others have interesting points as to why that may be -
The Tories don't want to expose how riddled they are with Russian money, while Labour are no cleaner (see Seamus Milne's links to Oleg Deripaska for instance)..

https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1066728629432958978

J Mysterio · 11-12-2018 02:05PM

Decent article in the Irish Times explaining what 'assurances' could be provided to May:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/what-can-the-eu-offer-may-to-save-her-brexit-deal-1.3727402?mode=amp

Wheres Me Jumper? · 11-12-2018 02:05PM

Awesomeness wrote: »

I believe remain would win a new referendum but to say the fluked the first one is not correct. You cant fluke a vote.

There were a number of factors, brexiteers peddling lies, people taking the result for granted etc. But to say it was fluked is to signify it is unlikely to happen again.

It will though if nothing changes. People need to exercise their right to vote. People need to educate themselves. People need to be called on their BS.

They may have cheated and lied but it was not by chance

i suppose Trump "fluked" his win as well.
it seems to me that some of these liberals cant just take a beatin'.
my 5 y/o daughter does exactly the same thing when she looses a game of cards. she changes the rules, cheats, bangs the table, and often storms out usually with her parting shot of "stupid game!" or "i dont like that game!" or "you're cheating Dad!".

but you expect better from these people who are so well informed.

LuckyLloyd · 11-12-2018 02:11PM

Folkstonian wrote: »

Whilst I do think it’s wholly futile for Theresa May to be going back to the continent this late in the day, the EU doesn’t (for now, at least) build its own policies from the ground up. It relies on input and direction from the member states.

So while I think it’s pointless now, I don’t know why people scoff at any leader in theory trying to influence the EU’s position by speaking to individual heads of state and having them communicate their positions at the European Council

I scoff at it because she tried this in the summer and it didn't work. The "divide and conquer" David Davies assumption of going to Berlin rather than Brussels is clearly dead in the water. It's nonsense, and so it is scoffed at - like we can increasingly scoff at the British political institutions paralysed at a moment of self inflicted national crisis.

Akrasia · 11-12-2018 02:14PM

When you say cheated, I hope you're referring to Aaron banks and his 8 million pounds of funding from illegal sources (probably Russian)

Or the blatant lies about NHS funding that they're still lying about

Or the lies about turkey and egypt joining the EU

Or the decades of propaganda stories in the UK press where they routinely made up lies about what the EU was doing to take away UK sovereignty....

Wheres Me Jumper? · 11-12-2018 02:16PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I scoff at it because she tried this in the summer and it didn't work. The "divide and conquer" David Davies assumption of going to Berlin rather than Brussels is clearly dead in the water. It's nonsense, and so it is scoffed at - like we can increasingly scoff at the British political institutions paralysed at a moment of self inflicted national crisis.

i never thought i would say this, but this whole fiasco has reminded me just how well served we are by the majority of our politicians.

LuckyLloyd · 11-12-2018 02:17PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

i suppose Trump "fluked" his win as well.
it seems to me that some of these liberals cant just take a beatin'.
my 5 y/o daughter does exactly the same thing when she looses a game of cards. she changes the rules, cheats, bangs the table, and often storms out usually with her parting shot of "stupid game!" or "i dont like that game!" or "you're cheating Dad!".

but you expect better from these people who are so well informed.

Trump and Brexit: the politics of anger and schadenfreude

Brexit needs to happen for no other reason than 'we won when you said we wouldn't / couldn't / shouldn't'

It's probably pointless debating this mindset unfortunately.

LuckyLloyd · 11-12-2018 02:18PM

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

i never thought i would say this, but this whole fiasco has reminded me just how well served we are by the majority of our politicians.

That I completely agree with you on. The fact we have a minority government in Ireland presently and yet the opposition parties have facilitated its continuance in the national interest is quite extraordinary. But something I am massively grateful for.

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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