Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

J Mysterio · 09-12-2018 04:39PM

Folkstonian wrote: »

I think I’d also like to add to the poster above that by a ‘sense of separateness’ what he actually means is that British governments have been historically reluctant to support Franco-German intergrationist drives.

Don’t kid yourself into thinking that lots of smaller nations, including Ireland, have not been supportive of the role Britain has played to counter-balance those ambitions.

The EU isn’t to blame for all Britain’s troubles. Far from it. But similarly, Britain isn’t some kind of malevolent, disruptive, isolated saboteur in Europe. I think maybe that needs to be said more in this thread.

The UK and Ireland were, for the most part, supportive of each other in their dealings with the EU. UK leaving the EU is bad for Ireland in many ways, and that includes having a strong ally in pressing our often collective wishes.

Brexit is just a disaster though, unbeliebably ill conceived and not thought out. A populist, nationalist drive built on the back of lies and mistruths. So while it is true that the UK often held a position in EU debates that aligned with Irelands interests, it is also true that the UK did not consider Ireland's interests when deciding to leave the EU.

Anthracite · 09-12-2018 04:43PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Your ridiculing,belittling comments are probably best kept for the poppy thread,although if you grew up in a country that was in cahoots with Germany in WW1 and sent condolences following the death of Hitler-well maybe it's to be expected.
Of course Dunkirk was a defeat for Britain and France,17000 soldiers died there(mostly French) and it did as you point out prompt Churchill's fight them on the beaches speech to the country and parliament when Britain was effectively fighting alone.And as is quite often pointed out Britain is something of a "has been"in terms of world power-but sometimes it's better to be a has been than a never was.The attitude of I'd rather die on my feet than cowering on my knees is a choice countries have.

I'm presuming this is a thinly veiled dig at Ireland. Personally, I'm quite happy to be a 'never was' if the alternative is to be part of a culture that raped and pillaged a large proportion of the people of this planet and ruined them culturally and economically.

Your mileage may vary.

briany · 09-12-2018 04:46PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

The UK and Ireland were, for the most part, supportive of each other in their dealings with the EU. UK leaving the EU is bad for Ireland in many ways, and that includes having a strong ally in pressing our often collective wishes.

Brexit is just a disaster though, unbeliebably ill conceived and not thought out. A populist, nationalist drive built on the back of lies and mistruths. So while it is true that the UK often held a position in EU debates that aligned with Irelands interests, it is also true that the UK did not consider Ireland's interests when deciding to leave the EU.

I would expect the UK to think about itself first when deciding to leave the EU. What has been disappointing is elements within the Brexit camp who express a contempt when Ireland voices concerns on certain matters, almost as if Ireland has no right to be doing so.

Kermit.de.frog · 09-12-2018 04:46PM

The UK is in this dreadful, debilitating and humiliating situation because of May's stupid red lines.

Had she not closed off her options to appease the nutcase wing of her party a very satisfactory deal would now be done.

It's just incompetence at the end of the day.

First Up · 09-12-2018 04:56PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Folkstonian wrote: »

I think I’d also like to add to the poster above that by a ‘sense of separateness’ what he actually means is that British governments have been historically reluctant to support Franco-German intergrationist drives.

Don’t kid yourself into thinking that lots of smaller nations, including Ireland, have not been supportive of the role Britain has played to counter-balance those ambitions.

The EU isn’t to blame for all Britain’s troubles. Far from it. But similarly, Britain isn’t some kind of malevolent, disruptive, isolated saboteur in Europe. I think maybe that needs to be said more in this thread.

The UK and Ireland were, for the most part, supportive of each other in their dealings with the EU. UK leaving the EU is bad for Ireland in many ways, and that includes having a strong ally in pressing our often collective wishes.

Brexit is just a disaster though, unbeliebably ill conceived and not thought out. A populist, nationalist drive built on the back of lies and mistruths. So while it is true that the UK often held a position in EU debates that aligned with Irelands interests, it is also true that the UK did not consider Ireland's interests when deciding to leave the EU.

Well it was decided by individual voters but its safe to assume that the impact on Ireland didn't occur to many of them.

Calina · 09-12-2018 04:59PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

The post i said that in referred to Dunkirk when British and French forces were defeated by nazi Germany-the same Germany Ireland sent condolences to when Hitler died.If you want to cower under the bed while countries like France and Britain fight for Europe that up to you but bleating on about a long gone colonial Britain is pathetic.

In other words you will pick history which suits your narrative and exclude history that does not.

Let me remind you that in the end, Britain lost the War of Independence here so what was that about cowering again, and systematically since 1945 has had to withdraw from previously conquered territory.

The history of Britain cannot be seen solely in terms of one withdrawal and the greater sacrifice in Dunkirk was France's.

You cannot as a country trade on WW2 only.

Strazdas · 09-12-2018 05:10PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

The post i said that in referred to Dunkirk when British and French forces were defeated by nazi Germany-the same Germany Ireland sent condolences to when Hitler died.If you want to cower under the bed while countries like France and Britain fight for Europe that up to you but bleating on about a long gone colonial Britain is pathetic.

Ireland was in no position to declare war on Germany in September 1939. There seems to be an opinion that this was entirely open as an option, but the new state was only 17 years old and had no military to speak of (and didn't have the pact with Poland that the UK did).

J Mysterio · 09-12-2018 05:24PM

briany wrote: »

I would expect the UK to think about itself first when deciding to leave the EU. What has been disappointing is elements within the Brexit camp who express a contempt when Ireland voices concerns on certain matters, almost as if Ireland has no right to be doing so.

It seems many assumed Ireland would just follow the UK out, which is laughable. In fact, I think many Brexiteers believed that they would bring the whole project crashing down by leaving, starting some sort of domino effect.

Water John · 09-12-2018 05:27PM

That's the rubbish Farage fed them, EU would collapse without the UK. His main aim, to facilitate his Eastern Friend.

CelticRambler · 09-12-2018 05:33PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

If you want to cower under the bed while countries like France and Britain fight for Europe that up to you but bleating on about a long gone colonial Britain is pathetic.

There was precious little cowering under the bed by the Irish from 1798 to 1922 in the face of occupation by a hostile nation. In 1939, colonial Britain was not long-gone. In fact, in 2018, colonial Britain is not long-gone: in case you've missed it, the current UK government is paralysed by the corner Theresa May has painted herself into, specifically the colonial corner known as Northern Ireland.

briany · 09-12-2018 05:36PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

It seems many assumed Ireland would just follow the UK out, which is laughable. In fact, I think many Brexiteers believed that they would bring the whole project crashing down by leaving, starting some sort of domino effect.

"They need us!" was something I'd heard a good bit throughout 2017. It's quietened down a fair bit now.

But it doesn't matter in a way because the line will always be something that makes Brexit sound like a good/noble idea. Latterly, it morphed into how the EU's being intractable and using NI as a bargaining chip to keep the UK attached to the EU. The only admittance Nigel Farage would do that things could have been handled better would be about politicians or political groups contrary to his.

Sam Russell · 09-12-2018 05:41PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought their biggest success was Dunkirk, when they stood alone - fighting them on the beaches, with that incredible 'Dunkirk spirit!'.

Mind you, when I think of it, wasn't that a defeat.

Your ridiculing,belittling comments are probably best kept for the poppy thread,although if you grew up in a country that was in cahoots with Germany in WW1 and sent condolences following the death of Hitler-well maybe it's to be expected.
Of course Dunkirk was a defeat for Britain and France,17000 soldiers died there(mostly French) and it did as you point out prompt Churchill's fight them on the beaches speech to the country and parliament when Britain was effectively fighting alone.And as is quite often pointed out Britain is something of a "has been"in terms of world power-but sometimes it's better to be a has been than a never was.The attitude of I'd rather die on my feet than cowering on my knees is a choice countries have.

Oft quoted by Brexiteers is rekindling the 'Dunkirk spirit, when Britain stood alone'. I have never heard anyone trying to rekindle the invasion of Normandy as any kind of spirit. It is deep in the psyche of the Brexiteers to hark back to valiant victories in the past - like Agincourt, Trafalgar, Waterloo, and Dunkirk -and justifiably the Battle of Britain. Dunkirk was a defeat but it is celebrated by Brexiteers as one of Britain's finest hours.

They recall heady times of Empire and daring deeds by British troops - like the charge of the Light Brigade in the Crimea.

However, they lost their wealth and Empire following WW II and have been stretched until they joined the EEC. They needed the growing market of Europe to counter their loss of their Commonwealth trade.

It is the Current UK Gov that is trying to make the UK a has-been power by walking away from the largest trading block in the world - and go out searching for trade deals in Southern Africa, and other remote parts of the world where they can get to like the taste of chlorine flavoured chicken and GMO Frankenstein cereals.

Ireland has no part in the British choice to go with Brexit. All that flows from it is completely the fault of the British electorate and the incompetence of May's Government.

LeinsterDub · 09-12-2018 05:43PM

igCorcaigh wrote: »

The thing that worries me about this whole shambles is how it demonstrates that the EU is now a trap, and I'm not pro Brexit.

The Left have been traditionally anti EU, or at least sounding a warning about its destination.

Where now for the left when the right have taken that ground?

Will the EU superstate gather strength now, just as the political sphere splinters?

It's a worrying scenario for everyone really.

The EU is easy to leave. Just a simple letter. Not inflicting economic suicide is a completely different issue and is not the EU's problem

CelticRambler · 09-12-2018 05:56PM

On the RTE Radio 1 news at 1pm, they had a report from East Kent, specifically Canterbury and Herne Bay - two places I know well, having spent a decade living and working there. They interviewed a bunch of Leave voters; all of them cited "control of immigration" as the reason they wanted to cut ties with the EU; other reasons were not wanting to have to follow rules dictated by the "continent" and "because". One old boy attributed the decline of Herne Bay to the "influx of immigrants". Well, Herne Bay was a long-established dump already when I lived in the area in the 90s (out dumped only by Ramsgate and Sheerness), and the "lack of respect" for the local infrastructure was 100% attributable to pure-bred native East-Kent English.

That series of interviews gave no reason to think that these Leave voters have been even slightly discouraged from their Leave mentality by the revalations of dubious/fraudulent campaign funding, exaggerated/distorted economic forecasts or the simple truth that the "influx of migrants" had more to do with the UK not applying EU-approved restrictions to EU migrants, and the supposedly unbearable EU directives are frequently translated into nonsensical national law by the very same people to whom the Leavers want to give back control.

Even though I think the UK's best interest would be served by staying in the EU, and even though I believe the first referendum should have been declared null and void, I don't really see the point of having a second referendum in the near future. That gullibility and short-sightedness, together with an obsession with the "glory" of WW1&2, were the main reasons I decided not to raise my children there, and why we left England 15 years ago.

ancapailldorcha · 09-12-2018 06:02PM

Take the World War 2 stuff elsewhere please. The History forum perhaps...

amacca · 09-12-2018 06:35PM

Any accuracy in the claim that a 2nd referendum would see a younger cohort of remain voters anxious to have their say........the ones who supposedly took it for granted the last time assuming a remain victory.

Or is that all poppycock!

Headshot · 09-12-2018 06:40PM

Don't forget CH 4 Brexit debate is on at 19:00 tonight

Should be a fascinating watch

An Claidheamh · 09-12-2018 06:40PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

And as is quite often pointed out Britain is something of a "has been"in terms of world power-but sometimes it's better to be a has been than a never was.The attitude of I'd rather die on my feet than cowering on my knees is a choice countries have.

So basically, it's better to have been a mass murdering empire who everyone hates, than to never have been one?

Could you imagine if Germans had that attitude?

Incidentally, Ireland in "cahoots" with the Germans was actually to not cower on our knees to Brit tyrants, but you knew that already

An Claidheamh · 09-12-2018 06:40PM

Headshot wrote: »

Don't forget CH 4 Brexit debate is on at 19:00 tonight

Should be a fascinating watch

Looking forward to whatever Gammon they get on.

ancapailldorcha · 09-12-2018 06:56PM

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Looking forward to whatever Gammon they get on.

Cut out the name calling please.

Nody · 09-12-2018 07:09PM

amacca wrote: »

Any accuracy in the claim that a 2nd referendum would see a younger cohort of remain voters anxious to have their say........the ones who supposedly took it for granted the last time assuming a remain victory.

Or is that all poppycock!

Going by memory there's around 800k new voters (i.e. people to young to vote last election) and about 500k older votes who've died since then. Seeing how young voters tend to be pro EU and older voters were against it (speaking in very generic terms) there's a potential truth in it. The big question being of course if they would bother to vote or not.

road_high · 09-12-2018 07:19PM

Nody wrote: »

Going by memory there's around 800k new voters (i.e. people to young to vote last election) and about 500k older votes who've died since then. Seeing how young voters tend to be pro EU and older voters were against it (speaking in very generic terms) there's a potential truth in it. The big question being of course if they would bother to vote or not.

Met many young voters in the uk last few years and all bar one (but of an arrogant knob) are strongly remain to that point of almost upset over it- they feel opportunities within Europe are being robbed from them for no real reason. Educated English people are generally great travelers

briany · 09-12-2018 07:20PM

Nody wrote: »

Going by memory there's around 800k new voters (i.e. people to young to vote last election) and about 500k older votes who've died since then. Seeing how young voters tend to be pro EU and older voters were against it (speaking in very generic terms) there's a potential truth in it. The big question being of course if they would bother to vote or not.

That depends on the terms of any possible 2nd ref. If the choice were deal or no deal, then I'd expect a comparatively apathetic response from younger voters as neither is an option they hugely want. On the other hand, no deal or remain would bring the biggest youth vote the UK's ever seen, I'd say, since it's pretty much do-or-die at that point. Possibly the biggest turnout overall.

If May's deal gets shot down and a 2nd referendum is proposed, I see just as much division and arguing over what the terms of the referendum will be. Safe to say that Mogg & co. will absolutely not want a remain option on the ballot.

cml387 · 09-12-2018 07:30PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

On the RTE Radio 1 news at 1pm, they had a report from East Kent, specifically Canterbury and Herne Bay - two places I know well, having spent a decade living and working there.

Well I was born in Gillingham. Any relations I have left there I believe are pro- Brexit.
And once again it's immigration the main issue.

The area I lived in depended a lot on the Royal Navy dockyards at Chatham, which closed in the eighties.

So in a microcosm here is the British problem, a glorious past but an uncertain future.

An Ciarraioch · 09-12-2018 07:34PM

Barry Gardiner (who opposes the EEA option) will be Labour's representative on the Channel Four debate.

tuxy · 09-12-2018 07:39PM

Was this really a conservative party campaign in Belfast for the last general election?

https://i.gyazo.com/237e91f5d8812a3273571caa6e751952.png

Just goes to show what they think of the island of Ireland

Wheeliebin30 · 09-12-2018 07:41PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Take the World War 2 stuff elsewhere please. The History forum perhaps...

In fairness I heard an author of a book on Brexit mentioning a huge factor with the British is when though they won WW 2 they never actually felt they had as Germany, Italy and Japans economy boomed in the years after the war and Britain’s didn’t.

And that resentment is still there.

Oh and a lot think Germany are taking over like they tried during WW2 except through the EU.

World War 2 is very significant in the context of Brexit.

road_high · 09-12-2018 07:53PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

In fairness I heard an author of a book on Brexit mentioning a huge factor with the British is when though they won WW 2 they never actually felt they had as Germany, Italy and Japans economy boomed in the years after the war and Britain’s didn’t.

And that resentment is still there.

Oh and a lot think Germany are taking over like they tried during WW2 except through the EU.

World War 2 is very significant in the context of Brexit.

WW2 and it’s legacy is a huge factor in brexit as it shapes the brexiteer attidude towards europe. I think a huge cohort are still fighting it in their heads. We don’t have that baggage here so really we started with Europe with a clean slate

Enzokk · 09-12-2018 08:09PM

Folkstonian wrote: »

I think I’d also like to add to the poster above that by a ‘sense of separateness’ what he actually means is that British governments have been historically reluctant to support Franco-German intergrationist drives.

Don’t kid yourself into thinking that lots of smaller nations, including Ireland, have not been supportive of the role Britain has played to counter-balance those ambitions.

The EU isn’t to blame for all Britain’s troubles. Far from it. But similarly, Britain isn’t some kind of malevolent, disruptive, isolated saboteur in Europe. I think maybe that needs to be said more in this thread.

What do you think about the decision by Cameron to pull the Conservatives out of the EPP group and having to form their own with coalition? What role do you think that has played in the perception that the UK is "some kind of malevolent, disruptive, isolated saboteur in Europe."?

Rjd2 · 09-12-2018 08:13PM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Barry Gardiner (who opposes the EEA option) will be Labour's representative on the Channel Four debate.

As someone said on twitter, is their anything Lucas and JRM would turn down media wise? I look forward to both of them in the jungle in the next 10 years.:eek:

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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