Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Sam Russell

RobMc59 wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought their biggest success was Dunkirk, when they stood alone - fighting them on the beaches, with that incredible 'Dunkirk spirit!'.

Mind you, when I think of it, wasn't that a defeat.

Your ridiculing,belittling comments are probably best kept for the poppy thread,although if you grew up in a country that was in cahoots with Germany in WW1 and sent condolences following the death of Hitler-well maybe it's to be expected.
Of course Dunkirk was a defeat for Britain and France,17000 soldiers died there(mostly French) and it did as you point out prompt Churchill's fight them on the beaches speech to the country and parliament when Britain was effectively fighting alone.And as is quite often pointed out Britain is something of a "has been"in terms of world power-but sometimes it's better to be a has been than a never was.The attitude of I'd rather die on my feet than cowering on my knees is a choice countries have.

Oft quoted by Brexiteers is rekindling the 'Dunkirk spirit, when Britain stood alone'. I have never heard anyone trying to rekindle the invasion of Normandy as any kind of spirit. It is deep in the psyche of the Brexiteers to hark back to valiant victories in the past - like Agincourt, Trafalgar, Waterloo, and Dunkirk -and justifiably the Battle of Britain. Dunkirk was a defeat but it is celebrated by Brexiteers as one of Britain's finest hours.

They recall heady times of Empire and daring deeds by British troops - like the charge of the Light Brigade in the Crimea.

However, they lost their wealth and Empire following WW II and have been stretched until they joined the EEC. They needed the growing market of Europe to counter their loss of their Commonwealth trade.

It is the Current UK Gov that is trying to make the UK a has-been power by walking away from the largest trading block in the world - and go out searching for trade deals in Southern Africa, and other remote parts of the world where they can get to like the taste of chlorine flavoured chicken and GMO Frankenstein cereals.

Ireland has no part in the British choice to go with Brexit. All that flows from it is completely the fault of the British electorate and the incompetence of May's Government.

LeinsterDub

igCorcaigh wrote: »

The thing that worries me about this whole shambles is how it demonstrates that the EU is now a trap, and I'm not pro Brexit.

The Left have been traditionally anti EU, or at least sounding a warning about its destination.

Where now for the left when the right have taken that ground?

Will the EU superstate gather strength now, just as the political sphere splinters?

It's a worrying scenario for everyone really.

The EU is easy to leave. Just a simple letter. Not inflicting economic suicide is a completely different issue and is not the EU's problem

CelticRambler

On the RTE Radio 1 news at 1pm, they had a report from East Kent, specifically Canterbury and Herne Bay - two places I know well, having spent a decade living and working there. They interviewed a bunch of Leave voters; all of them cited "control of immigration" as the reason they wanted to cut ties with the EU; other reasons were not wanting to have to follow rules dictated by the "continent" and "because". One old boy attributed the decline of Herne Bay to the "influx of immigrants". Well, Herne Bay was a long-established dump already when I lived in the area in the 90s (out dumped only by Ramsgate and Sheerness), and the "lack of respect" for the local infrastructure was 100% attributable to pure-bred native East-Kent English.

That series of interviews gave no reason to think that these Leave voters have been even slightly discouraged from their Leave mentality by the revalations of dubious/fraudulent campaign funding, exaggerated/distorted economic forecasts or the simple truth that the "influx of migrants" had more to do with the UK not applying EU-approved restrictions to EU migrants, and the supposedly unbearable EU directives are frequently translated into nonsensical national law by the very same people to whom the Leavers want to give back control.

Even though I think the UK's best interest would be served by staying in the EU, and even though I believe the first referendum should have been declared null and void, I don't really see the point of having a second referendum in the near future. That gullibility and short-sightedness, together with an obsession with the "glory" of WW1&2, were the main reasons I decided not to raise my children there, and why we left England 15 years ago.

ancapailldorcha

Take the World War 2 stuff elsewhere please. The History forum perhaps...

amacca

Any accuracy in the claim that a 2nd referendum would see a younger cohort of remain voters anxious to have their say........the ones who supposedly took it for granted the last time assuming a remain victory.



Or is that all poppycock!

Headshot

Don't forget CH 4 Brexit debate is on at 19:00 tonight

Should be a fascinating watch

An Claidheamh

RobMc59 wrote: »

And as is quite often pointed out Britain is something of a "has been"in terms of world power-but sometimes it's better to be a has been than a never was.The attitude of I'd rather die on my feet than cowering on my knees is a choice countries have.

So basically, it's better to have been a mass murdering empire who everyone hates, than to never have been one?

Could you imagine if Germans had that attitude?

Incidentally, Ireland in "cahoots" with the Germans was actually to not cower on our knees to Brit tyrants, but you knew that already

An Claidheamh

Headshot wrote: »

Don't forget CH 4 Brexit debate is on at 19:00 tonight

Should be a fascinating watch

Looking forward to whatever Gammon they get on.

ancapailldorcha

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Looking forward to whatever Gammon they get on.

Cut out the name calling please.

Nody

amacca wrote: »

Any accuracy in the claim that a 2nd referendum would see a younger cohort of remain voters anxious to have their say........the ones who supposedly took it for granted the last time assuming a remain victory.



Or is that all poppycock!

Going by memory there's around 800k new voters (i.e. people to young to vote last election) and about 500k older votes who've died since then. Seeing how young voters tend to be pro EU and older voters were against it (speaking in very generic terms) there's a potential truth in it. The big question being of course if they would bother to vote or not.

road_high

Nody wrote: »

Going by memory there's around 800k new voters (i.e. people to young to vote last election) and about 500k older votes who've died since then. Seeing how young voters tend to be pro EU and older voters were against it (speaking in very generic terms) there's a potential truth in it. The big question being of course if they would bother to vote or not.

Met many young voters in the uk last few years and all bar one (but of an arrogant knob) are strongly remain to that point of almost upset over it- they feel opportunities within Europe are being robbed from them for no real reason. Educated English people are generally great travelers

briany

Nody wrote: »

Going by memory there's around 800k new voters (i.e. people to young to vote last election) and about 500k older votes who've died since then. Seeing how young voters tend to be pro EU and older voters were against it (speaking in very generic terms) there's a potential truth in it. The big question being of course if they would bother to vote or not.

That depends on the terms of any possible 2nd ref. If the choice were deal or no deal, then I'd expect a comparatively apathetic response from younger voters as neither is an option they hugely want. On the other hand, no deal or remain would bring the biggest youth vote the UK's ever seen, I'd say, since it's pretty much do-or-die at that point. Possibly the biggest turnout overall.

If May's deal gets shot down and a 2nd referendum is proposed, I see just as much division and arguing over what the terms of the referendum will be. Safe to say that Mogg & co. will absolutely not want a remain option on the ballot.

cml387

CelticRambler wrote: »

On the RTE Radio 1 news at 1pm, they had a report from East Kent, specifically Canterbury and Herne Bay - two places I know well, having spent a decade living and working there.

Well I was born in Gillingham. Any relations I have left there I believe are pro- Brexit.
And once again it's immigration the main issue.

The area I lived in depended a lot on the Royal Navy dockyards at Chatham, which closed in the eighties.

So in a microcosm here is the British problem, a glorious past but an uncertain future.

An Ciarraioch

Barry Gardiner (who opposes the EEA option) will be Labour's representative on the Channel Four debate.

tuxy

Was this really a conservative party campaign in Belfast for the last general election?

https://i.gyazo.com/237e91f5d8812a3273571caa6e751952.png

Just goes to show what they think of the island of Ireland

Wheeliebin30

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Take the World War 2 stuff elsewhere please. The History forum perhaps...

In fairness I heard an author of a book on Brexit mentioning a huge factor with the British is when though they won WW 2 they never actually felt they had as Germany, Italy and Japans economy boomed in the years after the war and Britain’s didn’t.

And that resentment is still there.

Oh and a lot think Germany are taking over like they tried during WW2 except through the EU.

World War 2 is very significant in the context of Brexit.

road_high

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

In fairness I heard an author of a book on Brexit mentioning a huge factor with the British is when though they won WW 2 they never actually felt they had as Germany, Italy and Japans economy boomed in the years after the war and Britain’s didn’t.

And that resentment is still there.

Oh and a lot think Germany are taking over like they tried during WW2 except through the EU.

World War 2 is very significant in the context of Brexit.

WW2 and it’s legacy is a huge factor in brexit as it shapes the brexiteer attidude towards europe. I think a huge cohort are still fighting it in their heads. We don’t have that baggage here so really we started with Europe with a clean slate

Enzokk

Folkstonian wrote: »

I think I’d also like to add to the poster above that by a ‘sense of separateness’ what he actually means is that British governments have been historically reluctant to support Franco-German intergrationist drives.

Don’t kid yourself into thinking that lots of smaller nations, including Ireland, have not been supportive of the role Britain has played to counter-balance those ambitions.

The EU isn’t to blame for all Britain’s troubles. Far from it. But similarly, Britain isn’t some kind of malevolent, disruptive, isolated saboteur in Europe. I think maybe that needs to be said more in this thread.

What do you think about the decision by Cameron to pull the Conservatives out of the EPP group and having to form their own with coalition? What role do you think that has played in the perception that the UK is "some kind of malevolent, disruptive, isolated saboteur in Europe."?

Rjd2

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Barry Gardiner (who opposes the EEA option) will be Labour's representative on the Channel Four debate.

As someone said on twitter, is their anything Lucas and JRM would turn down media wise? I look forward to both of them in the jungle in the next 10 years.:eek:

Rjd2

This is a pretty bland debate so far, Cleverly is slick but this is a horror role for him tonight as he getting tore apart by the other 3.

Gardiner is not great either, a lot of waffle and does not seem engaged. Mogg and Lucas will be happy enough with their performances so far.

Enzokk

Just want to post this here, another example of BBC not challenging assertions made on their programs.

https://twitter.com/FaullJonathan/status/1071725140851998721

The reply from Andrew Rosindell was that his stats is correct if you include all trade within the UK.

https://twitter.com/FaullJonathan/status/1071743395985547264

Which seems weird to me if you do that, because then all other trade loses its significance as well. If EU trade falls from 44% to 10% or so if you include intra-EU trade, surely then US trade will fall in significance as well. All trade numbers would fall in that case. Lies, damned lies and politicians.

ancapailldorcha

Rjd2 wrote: »

This is a pretty bland debate so far, Cleverly is slick but this is a horror role for him tonight as he getting tore apart by the other 3.

Gardiner is not great either, a lot of waffle and does not seem engaged. Mogg and Lucas will be happy enough with their performances so far.

Lucas is making hay with this.

I wish broadcasters would blacklist Barry Gardiner. I don't think I've ever heard him say anything insightful.

kuro68k

amacca wrote: »

Any accuracy in the claim that a 2nd referendum would see a younger cohort of remain voters anxious to have their say........the ones who supposedly took it for granted the last time assuming a remain victory.



Or is that all poppycock!

Even if no new voters join in, enough old ones have died to reverse the result.

An Claidheamh

Pretty typical Brexiteer remark from that aul'wagon first thing on the show.

Claiming T M abandoning rights of NI citizens.

In reality, only citizens in North are Irish and European, or subjects, both of whom voted remain.

Wonder is she the same woman who reckons we're unhappy because "we lost".

flutered

the uk's biggest problem with the eu is, they were not running it

Headshot

Man I must of not been keeping up with the news, I was hoping May and Corbyn were debating instead we have the bloody likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg who I absolutely hate with a passion.

tuxy

Headshot wrote: »

Man I must of not been keeping up with the news, I was hoping May and Corbyn were debating instead we have the bloody likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg who I absolutely hate with a passion.

That one was cancelled and it's all a waste of time anyway, what's the point in trying to convince the public unless they deice on another referendum.

flutered

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Sunday Times reporting May is to delay the vote on Tuesday so she can demand concessions on the backstop at the meeting of EU leaders on Thursday.


Looks like the EU's solidarity with Ireland is about to be tested once and for all.

it was the uk who insisted on this particular backstop, barnier mentioned this

devnull

Have to say Labour don't come out of the C4 debate at all well.

Usual empty rhetoric from Gardiner about how the Theresa May deal is bad and also that the government is bad, they are destroying the country, bringing lots of non Brexit related stuff into it and that Labour will stop this happening with their own deal, without really saying too much about what actually it involved.

Gardiner also doesn't seem to know what the word 'deal' means either, so perhaps he should go and look it up in a dictionary, as he seems to think that Labour will just have to say something and they'll get it and they don't actually need to agree anything with the EU.

Other notable soundbites are Rees-Mogg essentially refusing to deny that he will start to erode workers rights. He also admitted that he would put the working time directive and maximum hour legislation to the bonfire.

All in all another fine example of how dysfunctional British politics is.

Rjd2

Cleverly owns Gardiner a few pints for that, he looked the obvious punching bag initially, but Gardiner took the spotlight of him by been useless. Labour messed up by sending him.

Debate was ultimately pointless as I'd be shocked if anyone who watched that would have their mind changed.