Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Tell me how

road_high wrote: »

How likely are the EU to agree to changes to the agreement though? To suit May and co? Seems to be the latest spin this morning!

So unlikely, the official EU response in request to a meeting could well be;

Official Communique #7845

French: Vous devez plaisanter

English: You must be joking

road_high

Tell me how wrote: »

So unlikely, the official EU response in request to a meeting could well be;

Official Communique #7845

French: Vous devez plaisanter

English: You must be joking

I think and hope so. The EU seem willing to let them crash out with no deal so I think that’s it at this stage. If they give an inch the UK will keep coming back for more as is their form so a line has to be drawn somewhere

Tell me how

Rjd2 wrote: »

Yep you hide Campbell away, the man is odious to say the least.

Plenty more people can articulate his POV without coming across as arrogant.


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/46492287/alastair-campbell-told-to-shut-up-during-newsnight-brexit-debate

That is exactly why Campbell should be involved.

That lady needs to understand what a debate is. He did not interrupt her in a blunt/rude way, he pointed out the fallacy of what she was saying. She is the one who reacted inappropriately in quickly moving to telling him to shut up.

You need to fight fire with fire and Campbell is best suited to taking on JRM in my view.

(I agree with him having a false position on iraq but that is a different point in relation to this topic).

Tell me how

road_high wrote: »

I think and hope so. The EU seem willing to let them crash out with no deal so I think that’s it at this stage. If they give an inch the UK will keep coming back for more as is their form so a line has to be drawn somewhere

No. The EU have a deal on the table which is fair to both the UK and the other 27 countries who will remain members of the EU.

But you are correct. If the EU stray offline even a fraction, the UK media will publish images from Normandy June 1944 with the headings saying "We have them on the run, now lets show them no mercy."

dr.fuzzenstein

road_high wrote: »

I think and hope so. The EU seem willing to let them crash out with no deal so I think that’s it at this stage. If they give an inch the UK will keep coming back for more as is their form so a line has to be drawn somewhere

Even in the 80's the UK was known for always wanting to get more and more for themselves, whilst paying less and less.
The EU is well wise to their shtick and they are not willing to get pissed on anymore.
I'm just relaying the sentiment that was prevalent in Germany even in the 90's.
England had a poor reputation as an EU member, even back then. They were viewed as greedy and not wanting to contribute their fair share. That they only view the EU as an ATM and free buffet.
History has proven this to be correct.
There will be little to no leeway for their bullsh*t. They're like that friend who only calls you when he needs something, always borrows money and never pays it back.
At some stage it's over and done with.

Tell me how

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Even in the 80's the UK was known for always wanting to get more and more for themselves, whilst paying less and less.
The EU is well wise to their shtick and they are not willing to get pissed on anymore.
I'm just relaying the sentiment that was prevalent in Germany even in the 90's.
England had a poor reputation as an EU member, even back then. They were viewed as greedy and not wanting to contribute their fair share. That they only view the EU as an ATM and free buffet.
History has proven this to be correct.
There will be little to no leeway for their bullsh*t. They're like that friend who only calls you when he needs something, always borrows money and never pays it back.
At some stage it's over and done with.

But what is always incredible is that such a person does either not see their behaviour as being unacceptable or knows it but is so focused on what they want that they just don't care that it is manipulative and selfish. I genuinely don't know which is true or whether it can be both or either.

It does echo a point I made previously about the curious practice of normally individual personality traits being evident as being held by large groups such as the UK in this instance.

Professor Moriarty

Rjd2 wrote: »

Yep you hide Campbell away, the man is odious to say the least.

Plenty more people can articulate his POV without coming across as arrogant.


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/46492287/alastair-campbell-told-to-shut-up-during-newsnight-brexit-debate

In this case, you need someone who can effectively articulate facts in a debate which is Campbell's strength. This is vital in the face of Mogg's slimey, nationalistic fantasies. Odious isn't important right now, facts are. In addition, applying 'odious' as a criteria would immediately disqualify Mogg.

Sam Russell

Tell me how wrote: »

No. The EU have a deal on the table which is fair to both the UK and the other 27 countries who will remain members of the EU.

But you are correct. If the EU stray offline even a fraction, the UK media will publish images from Normandy June 1944 with the headings saying "We have them on the run, now lets show them no mercy."

I thought their biggest success was Dunkirk, when they stood alone - fighting them on the beaches, with that incredible 'Dunkirk spirit!'.

Mind you, when I think of it, wasn't that a defeat.

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

No, it's not OK to make throwaway comments about something you don't care about, in the Politics forum, especially when it's irrelevant to the discussion. (See the charter) After Hours is the place for that kind of discussion.

You have isolated my comment without noting that prior to this I had been presented with a link to the SF website regarding expenses,this also contained details about Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness,two former para military members also allegedly guilty of worse crimes.Rather than become embroiled in further bickering -although shocked, my reaction and comment "I could`nt care less about SF" was I believe reasonable in the circumstances.I was subsequently informed the organisation affectionately referred to as "shinner" would`nt be interested in who owned what anyway.
So if my shocked answer offends you and is out of order then I acknowledge your disapproval but it is only my opinion.

First Up

Tell me how wrote: »

Rjd2 wrote: »

Yep you hide Campbell away, the man is odious to say the least.

Plenty more people can articulate his POV without coming across as arrogant.


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/46492287/alastair-campbell-told-to-shut-up-during-newsnight-brexit-debate

That is exactly why Campbell should be involved.

That lady needs to understand what a debate is. He did not interrupt her in a blunt/rude way, he pointed out the fallacy of what she was saying. She is the one who reacted inappropriately in quickly moving to telling him to shut up.

You need to fight fire with fire and Campbell is best suited to taking on JRM in my view.

(I agree with him having a false position on iraq but that is a different point in relation to this topic).

No, its about his credibility and once you lose that, you just don't recover. I agree with him 100% about Brexit but I don't want him anywhere near it.

Enzokk

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Cameron kicked it all off. He literally steered the Titanic directly into the iceberg. It's not really made any better by the fact that the British people actually voted to have a shipwreck.
He deserves a hell of a lot more than 10% of the blame.
It was utter hubris and monumental stupidity on his part that caused this whole mess.
May's handling of the whole debacle is be questionable, but one should not discount the pester power of the screaming toddlers that make up the British government.
I firmly believe that the combined IQ of any committee is substantially below the level of it's dumbest member -20.
And the larger the group and the more diverse and opposing the viewpoints, the worse it gets.
I'm amazed they got the deal they got. Even though it has absolutely no chance whatsoever.
But no deal could ever have a chance, because there are enough factions that badly want it to fail and the only deal they will accept is no deal. Going the full "Rule Britannia", the whole Nelson, make Britian great again, etc...
Basically inbred nationalistic numbskulls.

Yes, it all started with Cameron and his arrogance and you are right he deserves more than 10% of the blame, but Brexit was salvagable by the right leader. Has she made one right decision? I cannot recall one thing she has won for the UK that is really a compromise for the EU.

If she was forthright with what could be achieved she could have salvaged it, but red lines and immigration.

Folkstonian

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Even in the 80's the UK was known for always wanting to get more and more for themselves, whilst paying less and less.
The EU is well wise to their shtick and they are not willing to get pissed on anymore.
I'm just relaying the sentiment that was prevalent in Germany even in the 90's.
England had a poor reputation as an EU member, even back then. They were viewed as greedy and not wanting to contribute their fair share. That they only view the EU as an ATM and free buffet.
History has proven this to be correct.
There will be little to no leeway for their bullsh*t. They're like that friend who only calls you when he needs something, always borrows money and never pays it back.
At some stage it's over and done with.

This is a laughable, absurd post.

England has never been an EU member.

The EU has never been ‘pissed on’ by Britain.

If you are really just relaying your observations of a German attitude towards Britain, then maybe we all need to readjust our views of Germans from informed, reasonable Europeans to obnoxious tossers.

Britain is a huge net contributor to the EU budget, behind only Germany and France (and actually ahead of France in a number of years since the turn of the century)

There are a number of EU states who haven’t contributed their fair share financially. Britain is categorically not one of them.

Calina

Enzokk wrote: »

Yes, it all started with Cameron and his arrogance and you are right he deserves more than 10% of the blame, but Brexit was salvagable by the right leader. Has she made one right decision? I cannot recall one thing she has won for the UK that is really a compromise for the EU.

If she was forthright with what could be achieved she could have salvaged it, but red lines and immigration.

For me, the issue is I cannot identify a right leader bar possibly Nicola Sturgeon and there was no way in hell that was going to happen.

Professor Moriarty

Folkstonian wrote: »

This is a laughable, absurd post.

England has never been an EU member.

The EU has never been ‘pissed on’ by Britain.

If you are really just relaying your observations of a German attitude towards Britain, then maybe we all need to readjust our views of Germans from informed, reasonable Europeans to obnoxious tossers.

Britain is a huge net contributor to the EU budget, behind only Germany and France (and actually ahead of France in a number of years since the turn of the century)

There are a number of EU states who haven’t contributed their fair share financially. Britain is categorically not one of them.

So Britain has paid in a load of money and got nothing in return?

Folkstonian

Enzokk wrote: »

Yes, it all started with Cameron and his arrogance and you are right he deserves more than 10% of the blame, but Brexit was salvagable by the right leader. Has she made one right decision? I cannot recall one thing she has won for the UK that is really a compromise for the EU.

If she was forthright with what could be achieved she could have salvaged it, but red lines and immigration.

Anyone not holding May wholly and entirely to blame is being massively generous to her in my opinion.

Brexit didn’t have to be the disaster it has turned into. It was not inevitable.

After being elected May could have slowed things right down, made the country take a collective deep breath, and initiated a process of dialogue and preparation with no arbitrarily decided time constraints so that when Article 50 was invoked, critical infrastructure was already prepared, Parliament was already in broad agreement, and people were confident that the government had understood the scale and complexity of the challenge.

She decided to do none of those things. She showed no foresight, strength or wisdom from day one of her premiership, and things haven’t improved at all since.

The whole debacle is entirely on her

Folkstonian

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So Britain has paid in a load of money and got nothing in return?

I should hope there have been some positive returns. It would render the whole concept of an EU pointless if not.

You gave a like to the post in question.

Do you think Britain has historically ‘pissed on’ the EU? Acted like a friend who borrows money and never returns it?

I personally think it’s claptrap. But it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve had a different view to the majority.

FrancieBrady

Folkstonian wrote: »

I should hope there have been some positive returns. It would render the whole concept of an EU pointless if not.

You gave a like to the post in question.

Do you think Britain has historically ‘pissed on’ the EU? Acted like a friend who borrows money and never returns it?

I personally think it’s claptrap. But it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve had a different view to the majority.

With their vetos and opt outs of course they could be seen as having 'pissed on the EU'.

Leroy42

Boris Johnson has said this morning that he will take personal responsibility for any job losses stemming from a no deal Brexit (not sure what that really means!)

Wow, we have moved a long way from €350m pw for the NHS and a whole world of trade deals and a bright future. JRM is talking about 50 years before any advantages.

Good grief.

An Ciarraioch

Interesting to read that the Cork-Santander ferry will now be a 12-month service - 2,500 freight units sounds relatively tiny, but evidently there's sufficient commercial demand and profit.

briany

Folkstonian wrote: »

Anyone not holding May wholly and entirely to blame is being massively generous to her in my opinion.

Brexit didn’t have to be the disaster it has turned into. It was not inevitable.

After being elected May could have slowed things right down, made the country take a collective deep breath, and initiated a process of dialogue and preparation with no arbitrarily decided time constraints so that when Article 50 was invoked, critical infrastructure was already prepared, Parliament was already in broad agreement, and people were confident that the government had understood the scale and complexity of the challenge.

She decided to do none of those things. She showed no foresight, strength or wisdom from day one of her premiership, and things haven’t improved at all since.

The whole debacle is entirely on her

I don't think the Brexit-voting electorate, broadly speaking, had much patience for a period of dialog and preparation. The reason for this is that they had been greatly mislead when it came to the scope and complexity of negotiations, as well as the UK's negotiating position. They wanted the great things promised to them now. Not an indefinite period in the future. If May were to call for a 'preparation period', you can see how it's translated into 'stalling period' in certain eyes and ears.

breatheme

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Interesting to read that the Cork-Santander ferry will now be a 12-month service - 2,500 freight units sounds relatively tiny, but evidently there's sufficient commercial demand and profit.

Living in Spain, that makes me happy.

RobMc59

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought their biggest success was Dunkirk, when they stood alone - fighting them on the beaches, with that incredible 'Dunkirk spirit!'.

Mind you, when I think of it, wasn't that a defeat.

Your ridiculing,belittling comments are probably best kept for the poppy thread,although if you grew up in a country that was in cahoots with Germany in WW1 and sent condolences following the death of Hitler-well maybe it's to be expected.
Of course Dunkirk was a defeat for Britain and France,17000 soldiers died there(mostly French) and it did as you point out prompt Churchill's fight them on the beaches speech to the country and parliament when Britain was effectively fighting alone.And as is quite often pointed out Britain is something of a "has been"in terms of world power-but sometimes it's better to be a has been than a never was.The attitude of I'd rather die on my feet than cowering on my knees is a choice countries have.

Hurrache

RobMc59 wrote: »

if you grew up in a country that was in cahoots with Germany in WW1

What?

dr.fuzzenstein

Leroy42 wrote: »

Boris Johnson has said this morning that he will take personal responsibility for any job losses stemming from a no deal Brexit (not sure what that really means!)

Wow, we have moved a long way from €350m pw for the NHS and a whole world of trade deals and a bright future. JRM is talking about 50 years before any advantages.

Good grief.

For starters everything he said that lead up to Brexit should be printed out and fed to him.
This is akin to him admitting it was all a scam.
His personal responsibility means less than fcuk all, it won't help anyone who loses out because of his (and the others of his ilk) lies and deception.

Folkstonian

FrancieBrady wrote: »

With their vetos and opt outs of course they could be seen as having 'pissed on the EU'.

Every country has opt outs in certain areas.

Every country votes in accordance with its own interests in the council and in the parliament.

Have you called out Germany for pushing extreme economic liberalism for the last few decades despite the deeply harmful impact this has had on many smaller, less wealthy member states?

Have you called out France for aggressively pursuing a protectionist economic policy despite a majority of member states publicly stating that this is not in their best interests?

If you are prepared to single out and vilify the U.K. whilst all other countries engage in the same activity, you are a xenophobe.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Your ridiculing,belittling comments are probably best kept for the poppy thread,although if you grew up in a country that was in cahoots with Germany in WW1 and sent condolences following the death of Hitler-well maybe it's to be expected.
Of course Dunkirk was a defeat for Britain and France,17000 soldiers died there(mostly French) and it did as you point out prompt Churchill's fight them on the beaches speech to the country and parliament when Britain was effectively fighting alone.And as is quite often pointed out Britain is something of a "has been"in terms of world power-but sometimes it's better to be a has been than a never was.The attitude of I'd rather die on my feet than cowering on my knees is a choice countries have.

As a constituent part of the UK we were definitely "a has been". But a lot of us kinda got tired of that.

Professor Moriarty

Folkstonian wrote: »

I should hope there have been some positive returns. It would render the whole concept of an EU pointless if not.

You gave a like to the post in question.

Do you think Britain has historically ‘pissed on’ the EU? Acted like a friend who borrows money and never returns it?

I personally think it’s claptrap. But it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve had a different view to the majority.

I think they've been very divided in their commitment to the EU project at best. If their press and some of their politicians are anything to go by, they see the EU as an intrusive and ludicrous institution. This has played out in the UK's attitude and approach to the the EU.

BonnieSituation

Folkstonian wrote: »

Every country has opt outs in certain areas.

Every country votes in accordance with its own interests in the council and in the parliament.

Have you called out Germany for pushing extreme economic liberalism for the last few decades despite the deeply harmful impact this has had on many smaller, less wealthy member states?

Have you called out France for aggressively pursuing a protectionist economic policy despite a majority of member states publicly stating that this is not in their best interests?

If you are prepared to single out and vilify the U.K. whilst all other countries engage in the same activity, you are a xenophobe.

But France and Germany haven't exactly got the "benevolent" history with us that le Rosbif have.

And given that this collective clusterfūck is going to have a great effect on peace and prosperity of our island we're kinda allowed to begin to treat ye with the contempt that the UK deserves.

RobMc59

Gerry T wrote: »

It is good to have a brexiteer debate on here, we've have some very good contributors, but not enough of them. You'r prob mixing up business with the aviation industry which must have 50% ownership in the EU. Also car manufacturing which needs 55% of parts to be made in the EU for the car to qualify for EU free trade deals globally.
For those of us watching brexit for the last couple of yrs, it has become clear that from a financial perspective the UK will be damaged, how much no body really knows but it will hit people very hard. The other hits are harder to see, like travel through EU, delays etc. But the benefits, well there's none really. There's no real change in border or immigration and no one has ever listed the laws the ecj has implemented that would be removed.
So maybe you can debate the substantive issues, rather than one about an alcoholic drink, one which I love but is sadly declining in Ireland as young people's tastes change.
From your perspective, why don't the people of the UK demand a second ref to cancel brexit, get back in the EU, what's wrong with being in a club where all members prosper and help each other, giving to the less developed so they can grow faster and catch up....just like ireland did

I agree with a lot of your post,I thought the purpose of a discussion was for people to talk about a subject willing to listen to different views and have a range of opinions rather than everyone singing from the same hymn sheet agreeing with each other.
It can be difficult if you don't comply with the generally accepted opinion and you may even be labelled as troll.Bizarrely this may be the case even if your views are broadly the same as everyone else's.

Folkstonian

briany wrote: »

I don't think the Brexit-voting electorate, broadly speaking, had much patience for a period of dialog and preparation. The reason for this is that they had been greatly mislead when it came to the scope and complexity of negotiations, as well as the UK's negotiating position. They wanted the great things promised to them now. Not an indefinite period in the future. If May were to call for a 'preparation period', you can see how it's translated into 'stalling period' in certain eyes and ears.

I’m sure you are right.

But being Prime Minister isn’t meant to be an easy gig.

I would expect any PM to have the moral courage to take a more considered and cautious approach in that scenario

You aren’t much good as a leader if you cannot demonstrate leadership