Margaret Cash steals €300 worth of clothes from Penneys and aftermath/etc!

gormdubhgorm · 28-11-2018 02:50PM

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

The second quote implies an onus on non-travellers to break the barrier that you yourself claim the travellers have put up.

Telling use of language there.

Why is it telling? The non-travellers are the larger majority so they are the ones the position of power, government, media etc etc.
The as a result of this superior level of influence the onus should be on non-travellers.

On a simplistic level -
How many settled people have traveller mates?

Not many - there is no real interaction.

Deebles McBeebles · 28-11-2018 02:51PM

Gravelly wrote: »

And there’s the key - “people who lose their jobs” - we spoil people who never worked, never will work, and never contribute to society in any way, far too much. It’s long past time that there was a sliding scale of unemployment payments, until, after a certain length of time (say three years) you get to the point where you are fed and housed, but that’s it.

Absolutely. And it should be said that doesn't just apply to travellers. Not saying you meant it like that but in a thread about travellers it could be taken that way.

Where I'm from there are certain areas where large amounts of settled people have never worked and never plan to work. I'd imagine they are costing a lot more than travellers are. I'm talking generations of work-shy people who do nothing but take. One of them has a penchant for riding a horse along footpaths. Never fu*ckin picks up after it though. I get caught in that situation with a dog and bang, 150 quid please.

gormdubhgorm · 28-11-2018 02:57PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Ok I'll bite - give me ONE positive benefit of me approaching a Traveller or menber of that community ?

What would I and my working, contributing, law abiding community get out of it ?

Serious question - one thing.

I can give you many reasons.

Get to know them and take away your fear factor which is implied in your second sentence, for a start.
Then you can gradually change mindsets on both sides through the natural course of interaction and sharing postive aspects of culture.

Also if settled people/non-travellers got to know travellers better the law abiding travellers can be differeniatited from the criminal element.
Plus then the law abiding travellers would be more inclined to help the policing of the criminal element as more trust develops.

Plus as the travellers get more integrated and accepted by the larger Irish community it will lead to the travellers realising the value of education so there will be less disadvantaged/and/or criminal elements in the traveller community as a result.

PlaneSpeeking · 28-11-2018 03:00PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Get to know them and take away your fear factor which is implied in your second sentence, for a start.
Then you can gradually change mindsets on both sides through the natural course of interaction and sharing postive aspects of culture.

Also if settled people/non-travellers got to know travellers better the law abiding travellers can be differeniatited from the criminal element.
Plus the law abiding travellers would be more inclined to help the policing of the crimanal element as more trust develops.

Plus as the travellers get more intergrated and accepted by the larger Irish community it will lead to the travellers realising the value of education so there will be less disadvantaged/and/or criminal elements in the traveller community as a result.

Oh the "fear factor" is well established, given I live down the country.

I'll invite them in for tea so. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Paddy Cow · 28-11-2018 03:00PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Re-read again I said both sides.

It sounds great in theory to get travellers to integrate but HOW would that work when they do not want to integrate.

ohnonotgmail · 28-11-2018 03:01PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Re-read again I said both sides.

No. you said

If there is more interaction on a normal level with travellers from non-travellers that is when things will start to improve, education, mindset perception.

You are putting the onus on country people to interact more with travelers.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is a disgrace that there is only over 30k in the island of Ireland and they cannot be properly integrated in society.
I think there is blame on both sides both on the travellers side and non travellers side.

Where is the blame on the side of country people? Are they responsible for travelers not sending their children to school? For travelers resorting to violence in the first instance? For traveler criminality? Which of are country people responsible for?

sasta le · 28-11-2018 03:02PM

A good thing about social media is that the general public are becoming more and more aware of how bad the traveling community is

ohnonotgmail · 28-11-2018 03:03PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I can give you many reasons.

Get to know them and take away your fear factor which is implied in your second sentence, for a start.
Then you can gradually change mindsets on both sides through the natural course of interaction and sharing postive aspects of culture.

Also if settled people/non-travellers got to know travellers better the law abiding travellers can be differeniatited from the criminal element.
Plus then the law abiding travellers would be more inclined to help the policing of the criminal element as more trust develops.

Plus as the travellers get more integrated and accepted by the larger Irish community it will lead to the travellers realising the value of education so there will be less disadvantaged/and/or criminal elements in the traveller community as a result.

The fear factor you speak off is well earned. It is up to travelers to change their behaviour to reduce that. Until they do why should country people make an effort?

Paddy Cow · 28-11-2018 03:04PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Why is it telling the non-travellers? Are the larger majority so they are the ones the position of power, governement, media etc etc.
The as a result of this superior level of influnce the onus should be on non-travellers.

On a simplistic level -
How many settled people have traveller mates?

Not many - there is no real interaction.

Le sigh. No they don't. You only have to look at the Peter Casey debacle. The media and other politicians were calling him disgraceful etc yet the majority of people commenting on the media agreed with him, which was reflected in him going from 1% in the polls to 23% in the election.

Floppybits · 28-11-2018 03:05PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Ok I'll bite - give me ONE positive benefit of me approaching a Traveller or menber of that community ?

What would I and my working, contributing, law abiding community get out of it ?

Serious question - one thing.

You might get your driveway power washed or tarred or your gutters cleaned. Can't say to what standard or if the price would be competitive?

Rory28 · 28-11-2018 03:08PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I can give you many reasons.

Get to know them and take away your fear factor which is implied in your second sentence, for a start.
Then you can gradually change mindsets on both sides through the natural course of interaction and sharing postive aspects of culture.

Also if settled people/non-travellers got to know travellers better the law abiding travellers can be differeniatited from the criminal element.
Plus then the law abiding travellers would be more inclined to help the policing of the criminal element as more trust develops.

Plus as the travellers get more integrated and accepted by the larger Irish community it will lead to the travellers realising the value of education so there will be less disadvantaged/and/or criminal elements in the traveller community as a result.

I would swear from reading this you have never had to deal with them much. The fear factor is just straight up fear from past experiences. How can 'settled' people get to know travellers when they don't want to integrate?

Remember when the Polish first started coming here in great numbers? There was a lot of people saying **** about them because they were new and foreign but as we worked/socialized with them those initial impressions fell by the wayside. The difference is the Polish actually integrated.

Deebles McBeebles · 28-11-2018 03:09PM

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/criminal-assets-bureau-seizes-vehicles-worth-130-000-in-raids-1.3713180

Anyone fancy playing Crime Family or Traveller Family? Since the media won't report which it is. The link is the most detailed article I could find on it.

ohnonotgmail · 28-11-2018 03:09PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Why is it telling the non-travellers? Are the larger majority so they are the ones the position of power, governement, media etc etc.
The as a result of this superior level of influnce the onus should be on non-travellers.

what influence do i have as an individual to change this? why should i change my behaviour to accommodate them? They sure as hell wont change to accommodate country people. They need to realise that their culture of no education, marrying young, having large families, general criminality and dependence on social welfare are unsustainable.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

On a simplistic level -
How many settled people have traveller mates?

Not many - there is no real interaction.

Practically all of my mates are people i either went to school or college with or have worked with. So you can understand why i dont have any traveler mates.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 28-11-2018 03:10PM

I was a witness in a circuit court trial recently and a man of our ethnic community was in front of the judge begging to be let out of prison because he was diagnosed with cancer. Why was he in prison, you might wonder?

Because a sweet old lady gave him the benefit of the doubt and had him do odd jobs around her house that she paid him for, he would pick up bits of shopping etc for her. She was in her 80s I think. Anyway, he didn’t just do odd jobs. He sold her late husbands tools, trailers, lawnmowers, even her car. He robbed her blind, I think the damage exceeded 15k.

His wife took the stand to plead on his behalf saying she’d sell her 2010 car and pay it back to the old woman, and that they would pay a sum a money weekly from their social welfare. He was released.

Funny how there was only talk of repaying the elderly woman when he himself had a terminal illness and didn’t want to die in prison? Water off a ducks back going in there in his full health.

ohnonotgmail · 28-11-2018 03:11PM

Jasiah Hot Talker wrote: »

I was a witness in a circuit court trial recently and a man of our ethnic community was in front of the judge begging to be let out of prison because he was diagnosed with cancer. Why was he in prison, you might wonder?

Because a sweet old lady gave him the benefit of the doubt and had him do odd jobs around her house that she paid him for, he would pick up bits of shopping etc for her. She was in her 80s I think. Anyway, he didn’t just do odd jobs. He sold her late husbands tools, trailers, lawnmowers, even her car. He robbed her blind, I think the damage exceeded 15k.

His wife took the stand to plead on his behalf saying she’d sell her 2010 car and pay it back to the old woman, and that they would pay a sum a money weekly from their social welfare. He was released.

Funny how there was only talk of repaying the elderly woman when he himself had a terminal illness and didn’t want to die in prison? Water off a ducks back going in there in his full health.

i guarantee that woman never seen a penny

tayto lover · 28-11-2018 03:11PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I can give you many reasons.

Get to know them and take away your fear factor which is implied in your second sentence, for a start.
Then you can gradually change mindsets on both sides through the natural course of interaction and sharing postive aspects of culture.

Also if settled people/non-travellers got to know travellers better the law abiding travellers Ccan be differeniatited from the criminal element.
Plus then the law abiding travellers would be more inclined to help the policing of the criminal element as more trust develops.

Plus as the travellers get more integrated and accepted by the larger Irish community it will lead to the travellers realising the value of education so there will be less disadvantaged/and/or criminal elements in the traveller community as a result.

What has Pavee Point achieved in this area?
They are the organisation funded by the taxpayer to help travellers integrate, educate, find employment, seek human rights and seek housing. Their motto seems to be " nothing about them without them". So what have they achieved?
Maybe you could inform us? I'm all ears.

Gravelly · 28-11-2018 03:12PM

Rory28 wrote: »

I would swear from reading this you have never had to deal with them much. The fear factor is just straight up fear from past experiences. How can 'settled' people get to know travellers when they don't want to integrate?

Remember when the Polish first started coming here in great numbers? There was a lot of people saying **** about them because they were new and foreign but as we worked/socialized with them those initial impressions fell by the wayside. The difference is the Polish actually integrated.

The Polish are actually a great example - I doubt I know a single Irish person that doesn't have at least one Polish friend, I know several Irish people married to Poles, and most of us work with and socialise with Polish people all the time.

Now how come us terrible bigoted "settled people" could mix so well, in such a short time, with people from another country, with different traditions and language, yet we can't do the same with travellers?

Could it possibly be that it is the travellers fault, and not ours?

Rory28 · 28-11-2018 03:14PM

Gravelly wrote: »

Could it possibly be that it is the travellers fault, and not ours?

Now you're a racist. I think.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 28-11-2018 03:14PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Why is it telling the non-travellers? Are the larger majority so they are the ones the position of power, governement, media etc etc.
The as a result of this superior level of influnce the onus should be on non-travellers.

People in positions of power and influence in politics and the media, from Michael D. Higgins to Ryan Tubridy, will bend over backwards to praise Travellers' unique traditions and culture, welcome recognition of their ethnic minority status, etc. Miriam O'Callaghan came out and posed for pictures with Margaret Cash and her children.

However, few Travellers live in Dublin 4 or in the vicinity of Áras an Uachtaráin.

This means that the people in positions of power and influence are also the least likely to be encountering Travellers on a daily basis, and so they can afford to have a romanticized view of them and lecture the rest of us about our "racism."

Lefty Bicek · 28-11-2018 03:17PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Why is it telling the non-travellers are the larger majority so they are the ones the position of power, governement, media etc etc.

How many settled people have traveller mates?

Well, how many settled people have power, government, and media mates ?

Anyway you said 'non-travellers'.

Now you're squirming about the 'power, government, media etc etc', which is a deflection anyway, because that is just another minority (elite, this time) with which most people have little enough contact. You can tell that by how out of touch they are.

Your last comment shows what you meant originally is what you were called out on. So please, no more waffling.

But IF said elite were to go about breaking down the barrier that YOU said travellers have put up... uproar.

ohnonotgmail · 28-11-2018 03:17PM

Gravelly wrote: »

The Polish are actually a great example - I doubt I know a single Irish person that doesn't have at least one Polish friend, I know several Irish people married to Poles, and most of us work with and socialise with Polish people all the time.

Now how come us terrible bigoted "settled people" could mix so well, in such a short time, with people from another country, with different traditions and language, yet we can't do the same with travellers?

Could it possibly be that it is the travellers fault, and not ours?

As Fr Ted would say "they're a great bunch of lads". They came over here with the right intentions and fitted right in. The Lithuanians i know are the same. Just dont starting drinking vodka with either group. I think i can still feel the hangovers.

gormdubhgorm · 28-11-2018 03:17PM

Rex Tasteless Gutter wrote: »

Agreed, but you seem to be acknowledging now that Travellers' separatist mentality and tradition of consanguineous marriage is responsible for the lack of integration. How would the Traveller community react if a young woman came to her family and said "Sorry, I don't want to marry my cousin, I want to marry a settled man"? I'm sure there would be potentially serious repercussions for her, and for him.

The same things happen with interracial marriages, people eventually become used to them. But it will be tough for the first intrepid few.

We have only further encouraged segregation by granting Travellers ethnic minority status. This only deepens an "us vs them" mentality.

I agree with this part it only increases the sense of 'other'
They are Irish as far as I am concerned that live in caravans/houses.

That's all very well in theory. But Travellers have such a reputation for criminality and violence that many settled people fear contact with them, for very understandable reasons.
Travellers have put up YouTube videos brandishing guns and threatening to murder rival family members. And you think it's entirely irrational to think that interacting with them could have fatal consequences?
Travellers have put up YouTube videos brandishing guns and threatening to murder rival family members. And you think it's entirely irrational to think that interacting with them could have fatal consequences?

That fear really needs to be broken down not all travellers are going to shoot and rob you. In the 'culture' machismo guff is all part of it.
Again think of the worst non-traveller disadvantaged areas in Dublin there are a lot of similarities between them and the Travellers.
Marrying young, not seeing the need for education beyond a basic point, high rates of crime and mental health issues

The same methods that try to improve Traveller mindset if thier specific major barriers are broken down, if people chill out and get to know each other.

As for saying that Traveller culture would die if there was intermarrying from settled people.
I doubt this because in history we see how the Anglo-Irish developed who ended up 'being more Irish then the Irish themselves' etc etc.

Paddy Cow · 28-11-2018 03:17PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I can give you many reasons.

Get to know them and take away your fear factor which is implied in your second sentence, for a start.
Then you can gradually change mindsets on both sides through the natural course of interaction and sharing postive aspects of culture.

Also if settled people/non-travellers got to know travellers better the law abiding travellers can be differeniatited from the criminal element.
Plus then the law abiding travellers would be more inclined to help the policing of the criminal element as more trust develops.

Where are you going to make friends with these travellers when they do not want to integrate? I dare you to walk into a halting site and try to be their friend.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Plus as the travellers get more integrated and accepted by the larger Irish community it will lead to the travellers realising the value of education so there will be less disadvantaged/and/or criminal elements in the traveller community as a result.

Traveller kids have been integrating with settled kids for years in school, GAA and boxing clubs. The problem is they are with drawn at around 15 by older travellers so that they don't become too integrated with settled people. Travellers girls are married off as teens before they can develop their own independent identity.

PlaneSpeeking · 28-11-2018 03:18PM

Gravelly wrote: »

The Polish are actually a great example - I doubt I know a single Irish person that doesn't have at least one Polish friend, I know several Irish people married to Poles, and most of us work with and socialise with Polish people all the time.

Now how come us terrible bigoted "settled people" could mix so well, in such a short time, with people from another country, with different traditions and language, yet we can't do the same with travellers?

Could it possibly be that it is the travellers fault, and not ours?

I've said many a time on here, large Polish community in my town and a credit to the human race every one of them. Send more, it would be a Godsend.

The special ethnic folk ? Yeah avoid the town centre on the days the court sits.

iamwhoiam · 28-11-2018 03:24PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Ok I'll bite - give me ONE positive benefit of me approaching a Traveller or menber of that community ?

What would I and my working, contributing, law abiding community get out of it ?

Serious question - one thing.

I have a great relationship with a traveller lady . We have known each other for about 30 years now . She calls to me about every 2 months and we learn from each other . I enjoy her chats and catch up
My daughter lives a few doors down from a settled traveller family with three gorgeous kids . He is first out to shovel snow for his eldery neighbour , always helps with clearing up leaves and tidying the area .
A few doors down from that family is a non traveller family with two new cars and everything is the finest and the best . Their two children are the bane of everyones life as they are spoiled unruly brats
I take people how they are not who they are because I know which family I would choose to live beside and which would benefit me as a neighbour

gormdubhgorm · 28-11-2018 03:26PM

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Well, how many settled people have power, government, and media mates ?

Anyway you said 'non-travellers'.

Now you're squirming about the 'power, government, media etc etc', which is a deflection anyway, because that is just another minority (elite, this time) with which most people have little enough contact. You can tell that by how out of touch they are.

Your last comment shows what you meant originally is what you were called out on. So please, no more waffling.

But IF said elite were to go about breaking down the barrier that YOU said travellers have put up... uproar.

It is not defelction.You seem to be getting either intentionally/unintentionally confused.
The majority in Ireland are non-travellers = they are the ones with influence education etc etc = that influence and education could/should be used for positive integration. But they are the ones with the major fears which is a part of the reason the travellers have not integrated.
The non-travellers are the ones who make the law and create the media headlines.

Travellers = very clannish, law abiding ones have strong moral codes, but fearful of discrimination. If the non-travellers are seen to make an effort to get to know them then they will be more open. who
There should be a soft move into the traveller culture by the non-travellers.
A cultural exchange. Rather then scaremongering and scapegoating on either side.

Nothing will change otherwise.

Unless of course you would like another alternative send in the Irish Army (dawn raids) and it works out at about five bullets per solider? Then they would be cleaned out, problem solved.

ohnonotgmail · 28-11-2018 03:27PM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Where are you going to make friends with these travellers when they do not want to integrate? I dare you to walk into a halting site and try to be their friend.

I reckon you would end up like yer man in India who was riddled with arrows by the natives.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 28-11-2018 03:28PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The same things happen with interracial marriages, people eventually become used to them. But it will be tough for the first intrepid few.

Ireland has largely accepted interfaith marriage, interracial marriage, and most recently same-sex marriage. But I can guarantee that few young settled Irish men would consider trying to go out with a Traveller girl -- for the simple reason that her father/brothers/uncles/cousins wouldn't take too kindly to it and anything could happen to that young man and his family.

That fear really needs to be broken down not all travellers are going to shoot and rob you. In the 'culture' machismo guff is all part of it.

Numerous settled people have been assaulted or robbed by Travellers, and Travellers have murdered members of their own families in cold blood at weddings. To suggest that it's all harmless machismo guff is wrong.

As for saying that Traveller culture would die if there was intermarrying from settled people.
I doubt this because in history we see how the Anglo-Irish developed who ended up 'being more Irish then the Irish themselves' etc etc.

Well, the Anglo-Irish have long since assimilated with the native populations, and today there's no real distinction. The same thing would happen to Travellers if they started intermarrying with settled people. Their entire identity is predicated on segregation from the settled communities, and if segregation were replaced by integration, they would quickly become indistinguishable from everyone else.

Gravelly · 28-11-2018 03:29PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

There should be a soft move into the traveller culture by the non-travellers.

In what way? Should we make a few call-out videos on youtube? Rob a few elderly people? Marry our cousins at 15?

Perhaps, given that we fund their lifestyle, and are the main victims of their criminal enterprises, the travellers should make "a soft move" into our culture, by acting like civilised people, and then there won't be a problem.

ohnonotgmail · 28-11-2018 03:31PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not defelction.You seem to be getting either intentionally/unintentionally confused.
The majority in Ireland are non-travellers = they are the ones with influence education etc etc = that influence and education could/should be used for positive integration. But they are the ones with the major fears which is a part of the reason the travellers have not integrated.
The non-travellers are the ones who make the law and create the media headlines.

Travellers = very clannish, law abiding ones have strong moral codes, but fearful of discrimination. If the non-travellers are seen to make an effort to get to know them then they will be more open. who
There should be a soft move into the traveller culture by the non-travellers.
A cultural exchange. Rather then scaremongering and scapegoating on either side.

Nothing will change otherwise.

The only thing that travelers are afraid is that their children might get an education and realise what a terrible lifestyle they live. Their children might actually get proper jobs and their daughters wont rush into marriage at the first opportunity.

Margaret Cash steals €300 worth of clothes from Penneys and aftermath/etc!

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