Lefty Bicek wrote: » The second quote implies an onus on non-travellers to break the barrier that you yourself claim the travellers have put up. Telling use of language there.
Gravelly wrote: » And there’s the key - “people who lose their jobs” - we spoil people who never worked, never will work, and never contribute to society in any way, far too much. It’s long past time that there was a sliding scale of unemployment payments, until, after a certain length of time (say three years) you get to the point where you are fed and housed, but that’s it.
PlaneSpeeking wrote: » Ok I'll bite - give me ONE positive benefit of me approaching a Traveller or menber of that community ? What would I and my working, contributing, law abiding community get out of it ? Serious question - one thing.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Get to know them and take away your fear factor which is implied in your second sentence, for a start. Then you can gradually change mindsets on both sides through the natural course of interaction and sharing postive aspects of culture. Also if settled people/non-travellers got to know travellers better the law abiding travellers can be differeniatited from the criminal element. Plus the law abiding travellers would be more inclined to help the policing of the crimanal element as more trust develops. Plus as the travellers get more intergrated and accepted by the larger Irish community it will lead to the travellers realising the value of education so there will be less disadvantaged/and/or criminal elements in the traveller community as a result.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Re-read again I said both sides.
If there is more interaction on a normal level with travellers from non-travellers that is when things will start to improve, education, mindset perception.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » It is a disgrace that there is only over 30k in the island of Ireland and they cannot be properly integrated in society. I think there is blame on both sides both on the travellers side and non travellers side.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » I can give you many reasons. Get to know them and take away your fear factor which is implied in your second sentence, for a start. Then you can gradually change mindsets on both sides through the natural course of interaction and sharing postive aspects of culture. Also if settled people/non-travellers got to know travellers better the law abiding travellers can be differeniatited from the criminal element. Plus then the law abiding travellers would be more inclined to help the policing of the criminal element as more trust develops. Plus as the travellers get more integrated and accepted by the larger Irish community it will lead to the travellers realising the value of education so there will be less disadvantaged/and/or criminal elements in the traveller community as a result.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Why is it telling the non-travellers? Are the larger majority so they are the ones the position of power, governement, media etc etc. The as a result of this superior level of influnce the onus should be on non-travellers. On a simplistic level - How many settled people have traveller mates? Not many - there is no real interaction.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Why is it telling the non-travellers? Are the larger majority so they are the ones the position of power, governement, media etc etc. The as a result of this superior level of influnce the onus should be on non-travellers.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » On a simplistic level - How many settled people have traveller mates? Not many - there is no real interaction.
Jasiah Hot Talker wrote: » I was a witness in a circuit court trial recently and a man of our ethnic community was in front of the judge begging to be let out of prison because he was diagnosed with cancer. Why was he in prison, you might wonder? Because a sweet old lady gave him the benefit of the doubt and had him do odd jobs around her house that she paid him for, he would pick up bits of shopping etc for her. She was in her 80s I think. Anyway, he didn’t just do odd jobs. He sold her late husbands tools, trailers, lawnmowers, even her car. He robbed her blind, I think the damage exceeded 15k. His wife took the stand to plead on his behalf saying she’d sell her 2010 car and pay it back to the old woman, and that they would pay a sum a money weekly from their social welfare. He was released. Funny how there was only talk of repaying the elderly woman when he himself had a terminal illness and didn’t want to die in prison? Water off a ducks back going in there in his full health.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » I can give you many reasons. Get to know them and take away your fear factor which is implied in your second sentence, for a start. Then you can gradually change mindsets on both sides through the natural course of interaction and sharing postive aspects of culture. Also if settled people/non-travellers got to know travellers better the law abiding travellers Ccan be differeniatited from the criminal element. Plus then the law abiding travellers would be more inclined to help the policing of the criminal element as more trust develops. Plus as the travellers get more integrated and accepted by the larger Irish community it will lead to the travellers realising the value of education so there will be less disadvantaged/and/or criminal elements in the traveller community as a result.
Rory28 wrote: » I would swear from reading this you have never had to deal with them much. The fear factor is just straight up fear from past experiences. How can 'settled' people get to know travellers when they don't want to integrate? Remember when the Polish first started coming here in great numbers? There was a lot of people saying **** about them because they were new and foreign but as we worked/socialized with them those initial impressions fell by the wayside. The difference is the Polish actually integrated.
Gravelly wrote: » Could it possibly be that it is the travellers fault, and not ours?
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Why is it telling the non-travellers are the larger majority so they are the ones the position of power, governement, media etc etc. How many settled people have traveller mates?
Gravelly wrote: » The Polish are actually a great example - I doubt I know a single Irish person that doesn't have at least one Polish friend, I know several Irish people married to Poles, and most of us work with and socialise with Polish people all the time. Now how come us terrible bigoted "settled people" could mix so well, in such a short time, with people from another country, with different traditions and language, yet we can't do the same with travellers? Could it possibly be that it is the travellers fault, and not ours?
Rex Tasteless Gutter wrote: » Agreed, but you seem to be acknowledging now that Travellers' separatist mentality and tradition of consanguineous marriage is responsible for the lack of integration. How would the Traveller community react if a young woman came to her family and said "Sorry, I don't want to marry my cousin, I want to marry a settled man"? I'm sure there would be potentially serious repercussions for her, and for him.
We have only further encouraged segregation by granting Travellers ethnic minority status. This only deepens an "us vs them" mentality.
That's all very well in theory. But Travellers have such a reputation for criminality and violence that many settled people fear contact with them, for very understandable reasons. Travellers have put up YouTube videos brandishing guns and threatening to murder rival family members. And you think it's entirely irrational to think that interacting with them could have fatal consequences? Travellers have put up YouTube videos brandishing guns and threatening to murder rival family members. And you think it's entirely irrational to think that interacting with them could have fatal consequences?
gormdubhgorm wrote: » I can give you many reasons. Get to know them and take away your fear factor which is implied in your second sentence, for a start. Then you can gradually change mindsets on both sides through the natural course of interaction and sharing postive aspects of culture. Also if settled people/non-travellers got to know travellers better the law abiding travellers can be differeniatited from the criminal element. Plus then the law abiding travellers would be more inclined to help the policing of the criminal element as more trust develops.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Plus as the travellers get more integrated and accepted by the larger Irish community it will lead to the travellers realising the value of education so there will be less disadvantaged/and/or criminal elements in the traveller community as a result.
Lefty Bicek wrote: » Well, how many settled people have power, government, and media mates ? Anyway you said 'non-travellers'. Now you're squirming about the 'power, government, media etc etc', which is a deflection anyway, because that is just another minority (elite, this time) with which most people have little enough contact. You can tell that by how out of touch they are. Your last comment shows what you meant originally is what you were called out on. So please, no more waffling. But IF said elite were to go about breaking down the barrier that YOU said travellers have put up... uproar.
Paddy Cow wrote: » Where are you going to make friends with these travellers when they do not want to integrate? I dare you to walk into a halting site and try to be their friend.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » The same things happen with interracial marriages, people eventually become used to them. But it will be tough for the first intrepid few.
That fear really needs to be broken down not all travellers are going to shoot and rob you. In the 'culture' machismo guff is all part of it.
As for saying that Traveller culture would die if there was intermarrying from settled people. I doubt this because in history we see how the Anglo-Irish developed who ended up 'being more Irish then the Irish themselves' etc etc.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » There should be a soft move into the traveller culture by the non-travellers.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » It is not defelction.You seem to be getting either intentionally/unintentionally confused. The majority in Ireland are non-travellers = they are the ones with influence education etc etc = that influence and education could/should be used for positive integration. But they are the ones with the major fears which is a part of the reason the travellers have not integrated. The non-travellers are the ones who make the law and create the media headlines. Travellers = very clannish, law abiding ones have strong moral codes, but fearful of discrimination. If the non-travellers are seen to make an effort to get to know them then they will be more open. who There should be a soft move into the traveller culture by the non-travellers. A cultural exchange. Rather then scaremongering and scapegoating on either side. Nothing will change otherwise.
