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Margaret Cash steals €300 worth of clothes from Penneys and aftermath/etc!

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    #1352
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    :eek::eek::D:D

    Credit where its due, i cant claim that. I heard that here, its so appropriate!


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    #1353
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Rex Tasteless Gutter wrote: »

    So how is the welfare system "helping" Travellers? .
    Rex Tasteless Gutter wrote: »
    It's clearly keeping them stuck in a poverty trap where they more of an incentive to remain on welfare and keep popping out babies than to work.

    That'd be how.

    I personally would view someone paying me more money to stay at home than I earn by working as a considerable help!

    More money and your time is all your own - that's the kind of trap I could live with.:confused:


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    #1354
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Will any of these kids go to college or university, get an apprenticeship or otherwise become a productive member of society?

    Unless by a small miracle I fcukin' doubt it very much. Suckle off the test of the State for their lifetimes would be more like it.

    Just getting a basic honest job would be enough for me.


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    #1355
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    Just getting a basic honest job would be enough for me.

    I fear even that will never happen.


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    #1356
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,608 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Rex Tasteless Gutter wrote: »
    According to figures published recently by the Irish Times:

    If a Traveller (married with adult dependent and five children) worked as a building labourer at the registered employment agreement rate of €13.77 per hour, his take-home pay for working 39 hours a week for a year would be €25,594 – €806 less than the jobseekers’ allowance. Amazingly, the Traveller taking the building job would also lose the medical card for the family because the income limit for the medical card for a couple with five children is only €24,206.

    It's clear that because of the way the Irish welfare system is designed, larger families (and the average Traveller couple has five children) are often better off on welfare, especially when additional perks such as medical cards, social housing, etc., are factored in.

    So how is the welfare system "helping" Travellers? It's clearly keeping them stuck in a poverty trap where they more of an incentive to remain on welfare and keep popping out babies than to work.

    I do believe I stated this before, welfare is a tax we pay to keep people down.

    Give a person a fish rather than teaching them to fish.

    First they came for the socialists...



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    #1357
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Feisar wrote: »
    I do believe I stated this before, welfare is a tax we pay to keep people down.

    Give a person a fish rather than teaching them to fish.

    Teach a man to fish, tell him he needs to work to feed himself.

    Give a man free fish, along with free rods, boat, stocked lake, with a boathouse, and a fishing licence.
    Man gets his friend. Friend wants his fish, lake with boathouse, because he's entitled to one...


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    #1358
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Graces7 wrote: »
    so your answer is? starve the children?
    No, their answer isn't that. They didn't say that whatsoever. And you know they didn't. Why must your posts persist in being so inflammatory and dishonest?


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    #1359
    sightband
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 670 ✭✭✭sightband


    Maggie seems to have f*cked off into oblivion as far as media spotlight goes since she was outed for this. It’s a shame, she was doing wonders in highlighting everything that is wrong with her ethnicity and the system, she was also highly entertaining. I’d like to know how the house hunting is going.


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    #1360
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    Just getting a basic honest job would be enough for me.

    not being a recidivist criminal would be a great start


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    #1361
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    sightband wrote: »
    Maggie seems to have f*cked off into oblivion as far as media spotlight goes since she was outed for this. It’s a shame, she was doing wonders in highlighting everything that is wrong with her ethnicity and the system, she was also highly entertaining. I’d like to know how the house hunting is going.

    She'll be back shortly when she gets kicked out of whatever luxurious pad we have provided her with this time. It happens every couple of years. The only difference this time is that instead of the headline reading "Homeless mother of seven has to sleep in Garda Station" it'll be "Homeless mother of eight (or possibly nine) has to sleep in Garda Station" and, just like the last 2 times they ran with her story, the papers won't bother their backsides checking if she's legit or not.


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    #1362
    malinheader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,976 ✭✭✭malinheader


    sightband wrote: »
    Maggie seems to have f*cked off into oblivion as far as media spotlight goes since she was outed for this. It’s a shame, she was doing wonders in highlighting everything that is wrong with her ethnicity and the system, she was also highly entertaining. I’d like to know how the house hunting is going.

    Your right. It's fairly blew up in the faces of those who used her as a stunt to highlight the plight of the homeless. I genuinely feel sorry for the real people out there who find themselves homeless and struggling at this timeSome Genuine hard working people are still struggling .


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    #1363
    KrustyUCC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    Oh don't worry Maggie is still around

    Protest March for Travellers of Ireland in Dublin on 2nd of December to look forward to

    Protest against Mr Peter Casey and apparently travlers want to be made an ethnic group of settled people through law


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    #1364
    xi5yvm0owc1s2b
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭xi5yvm0owc1s2b


    Graces7 wrote: »
    so your answer is? starve the children?

    Nobody is proposing starving children.

    The question is one of incentives. Half of Traveller women have 5 or more children, while only one in 20 settled women has five or more children. And when it comes to even larger families, 13 percent of Traveller women have 8+ children, versus only 0.3 percent of settled women.

    If a Traveller girl follows the typical pattern of leaving school before the age of 15, getting married in her teens, getting pregnant immediately and starting to pop out children -- then yes, it's highly likely that the state will pay to raise those children because the parents are likely to be uneducated and jobless. We also know that children raised in a culture of welfare dependency are more likely to repeat the pattern themselves.

    So, how do we break the cycle? How do we encourage Travellers to complete their educations, get jobs, postpone marriage, and reproduce responsibly?

    It's clear that throwing money at the problem only perpetuates the problem.


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    #1365
    DavidLyons_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭DavidLyons_


    Bridget Mushy Viper wrote: »
    Graces7 wrote: »
    so your answer is? starve the children?
    No, their answer isn't that. They didn't say that whatsoever. And you know they didn't. Why must your posts persist in being so inflammatory and dishonest?
    I suspect certain posters like to try to derail threads (for their own inexplicable ends). Part of that tactic is to provoke responses from their fellow posters that they can then report and get the said poster banned.

    It’s especially noticeable when they don’t have a leg to stand on and are bereft of a counter-argument.


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    #1366
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,123 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Rex Tasteless Gutter wrote: »
    Nobody is proposing starving children.

    The question is one of incentives. Half of Traveller women have 5 or more children, while only one in 20 settled women has five or more children. And when it comes to even larger families, 13 percent of Traveller women have 8+ children, versus only 0.3 percent of settled women.

    If a Traveller girl follows the typical pattern of leaving school before the age of 15, getting married in her teens, getting pregnant immediately and starting to pop out children -- then yes, it's highly likely that the state will pay to raise those children because the parents are likely to be uneducated and jobless. We also know that children raised in a culture of welfare dependency are more likely to repeat the pattern themselves.

    So, how do we break the cycle? How do we encourage Travellers to complete their educations, get jobs, postpone marriage, and reproduce responsibly?

    It's clear that throwing money at the problem only perpetuates the problem.

    Get you out of here with your facts and common sense.


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    #1367
    Odelay
    Registered Users Posts: 3,795 ✭✭✭Odelay


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Get you out of here with your facts and common sense.

    But that’s his culture :0


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    #1368
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    I suspect certain posters like to try to derail threads (for their own inexplicable ends). Part of that tactic is to provoke responses from their fellow posters that they can then report and get the said poster banned.

    It’s especially noticeable when they don’t have a leg to stand on and are bereft of a counter-argument.
    It's a well known internet practice that I would be admonished for accusing them of when they're the ones who should be admonished according to the charter. It begins with T.


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    #1369
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Rex Tasteless Gutter wrote: »
    Nobody is proposing starving children.

    The question is one of incentives. Half of Traveller women have 5 or more children, while only one in 20 settled women has five or more children. And when it comes to even larger families, 13 percent of Traveller women have 8+ children, versus only 0.3 percent of settled women.

    If a Traveller girl follows the typical pattern of leaving school before the age of 15, getting married in her teens, getting pregnant immediately and starting to pop out children -- then yes, it's highly likely that the state will pay to raise those children because the parents are likely to be uneducated and jobless. We also know that children raised in a culture of welfare dependency are more likely to repeat the pattern themselves.

    So, how do we break the cycle? How do we encourage Travellers to complete their educations, get jobs, postpone marriage, and reproduce responsibly?

    It's clear that throwing money at the problem only perpetuates the problem.

    Yes I get all that but noone is making any suggestions that do not involve cutting existing benefits that would rebound on existing children?

    And probably as this is a cultural heritage thing, you are aiming too high in wanting them to change? what you call "the cycle" is their way of life for generations.

    Any changes would have to be subtle and not trying to make them conform to "our" way of life. It seems as if folk are expecting them to stop being Travellers? And current ideas are clearly not working.

    Their culture has to be respected? Accepted? Deal within it? You will never get them to act as if they were not Travellers.

    Sorry; not putting this very well; tired and unwell today. But is always reads as if you are trying to make Travellers into ordinary Irish people? They are different Foreigners in many ways and with different priorities?

    Hope you can respond without calling me names as another poster has :eek:


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    #1370
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    I suspect certain posters like to try to derail threads (for their own inexplicable ends). Part of that tactic is to provoke responses from their fellow posters that they can then report and get the said poster banned.

    It’s especially noticeable when they don’t have a leg to stand on and are bereft of a counter-argument.

    The way it was put made that the only logical conclusion and I am glad the idea shocked... You cannot suggest changing benefits or withdrawing financial support when there are children, born or unborn, at stake.
    Because it is always the children who suffer most and are left at a loss.


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    #1371
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Bridget Mushy Viper wrote: »
    No, their answer isn't that. They didn't say that whatsoever. And you know they didn't. Why must your posts persist in being so inflammatory and dishonest?

    There was nothing ???dishonest?? or inflammatory in my post., See my other reply please

    If you cut benefits, the children will be worst affected. And cutting beneifts came across as the possible solution?

    And please cut the personal attacks. Does you no credit.


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    #1372
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    Graces7 wrote: »

    Their culture has to be respected? Accepted? Deal within it?

    Why though?


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    #1373
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Yes I get all that but noone is making any suggestions that do not involve cutting existing benefits that would rebound on existing children?

    And probably as this is a cultural heritage thing, you are aiming too high in wanting them to change? what you call "the cycle" is their way of life for generations.

    Any changes would have to be subtle and not trying to make them conform to "our" way of life. It seems as if folk are expecting them to stop being Travellers? And current ideas are clearly not working.

    Their culture has to be respected? Accepted? Deal within it? You will never get them to act as if they were not Travellers.

    Sorry; not putting this very well; tired and unwell today. But is always reads as if you are trying to make Travellers into ordinary Irish people? They are different Foreigners in many ways and with different priorities?
    Are you asking questions or making statements with question marks?

    A culture with widespread violence and crime and anti social behaviour, teen marriage, no family planning, disregard for education or sanitation, animal cruelty, self entitlement, inter-breeding... you couldn't genuinely believe that that should be respected.

    Any aspects to traveller culture that don't cause harm to them or others - no issue with that. Can't think of any though, apart from standard stuff that settled people do too.


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    #1374
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Why though?

    Sorry what do you mean by why? Because they are like a foreign nation in many ways. Would you eg ask French people to stop being French? To change eg food, language?

    At present the attitudes expressed are exacerbating the situation. Travellers are never going to conform to ordinary Irish standards. It is not in their ... culture.. to do so. Not in their makeup. That was why the govt(?) statement was made about them being a different culture etc.

    sorry; too weary and in pain to say more as some of you are jumping on me and I need all my wits to repsond. properly

    but I have never written a dishonest post; terrible thing to accuse of.

    But clesarly the current attitide is getting nowhere. They will never conform as you are seeking.

    blessings and peace


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    #1375
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Graces7 wrote: »
    The way it was put made that the only logical conclusion and I am glad the idea shocked... You cannot suggest changing benefits or withdrawing financial support when there are children, born or unborn, at stake.
    Because it is always the children who suffer most and are left at a loss.

    Oh but you can - you say NOW that in two years' time any children's allowance is capped at 2 kids, no more.

    You want more kids, get up off the parliamentary side of your a**e and work.

    Oh and Travellers are NOT "foreigners"!! That might be the single most ludicrous post I have ever read, and it's up against a fair few.


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    #1376
    DavidLyons_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭DavidLyons_


    Graces7 wrote: »
    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    I suspect certain posters like to try to derail threads (for their own inexplicable ends). Part of that tactic is to provoke responses from their fellow posters that they can then report and get the said poster banned.

    It’s especially noticeable when they don’t have a leg to stand on and are bereft of a counter-argument.

    The way it was put made that the only logical conclusion and I am glad the idea shocked... You cannot suggest changing benefits or withdrawing financial support when there are children, born or unborn, at stake.
    Because it is always the children who suffer most and are left at a loss.
    Sorry, the last time I engaged with you (quite a good while ago I might add) I found myself reported and banned for an innocuous enough post.

    I simply forgot to add you to my ignore list which I will now remedy.

    Nobody is suggesting punishing children but a plan needs to be implemented now to state that Children’s Allowance should be capped - say 5 years into the future - whereby if you have more than 3 children no payments - or other benefits - will be forthcoming from the state. Any children born prior to the 2023 cut off point would still be eligible.

    5 years would be a fair period of warning time I would suggest.

    In addition to that, the long term unemployed should be exempt from the social welfare Christmas bonus. It should only be the short term unemployed that receive that.

    I would also freeze social welfare payments at a certain level that reduce incrementally for every year for which you continue to receive the payments after 24 months.

    I would stress that none of this should apply to the elderly, disabled or their careers.

    This b*lloxology needs to be addressed.


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    #1377
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Sorry what do you mean by why? Because they are like a foreign nation in many ways. Would you eg ask French people to stop being French? To change eg food, language?

    At present the attitudes expressed are exacerbating the situation. Travellers are never going to conform to ordinary Irish standards. It is not in their ... culture.. to do so. Not in their makeup. That was why the govt(?) statement was made about them being a different culture etc.

    sorry; too weary and in pain to say more as some of you are jumping on me and I need all my wits to repsond. properly

    But clesarly the current attitide is getting nowhere. They will never conform as you are seeking.

    blessings and peace

    So they'll never obey the law, never work or pay taxes, will always abuse women and animals, will always fight like idiots - then why are we paying for them ??!!!


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    #1378
    vonlars
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭vonlars


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Yes I get all that but noone is making any suggestions that do not involve cutting existing benefits that would rebound on existing children?

    And probably as this is a cultural heritage thing, you are aiming too high in wanting them to change? what you call "the cycle" is their way of life for generations.

    Any changes would have to be subtle and not trying to make them conform to "our" way of life. It seems as if folk are expecting them to stop being Travellers? And current ideas are clearly not working.

    Their culture has to be respected? Accepted? Deal within it? You will never get them to act as if they were not Travellers.

    Sorry; not putting this very well; tired and unwell today. But is always reads as if you are trying to make Travellers into ordinary Irish people? They are different Foreigners in many ways and with different priorities?

    Hope you can respond without calling me names as another poster has :eek:

    This is what annoys me so much. There's no 'culture'. Traveller culture was when they would travel around Ireland, work on farms and tinker. The people supported them but they also supported the people. That culture is long, long gone. What exactly is it that you consider to be their culture? There was no welfare state in Ireland until the 1920s. How did they survive before that? That is what we should consider their culture, not the current sponging they have become accustom to.

    Times change and our cultures have to change with that. My grandad made a living milking four cows and running a farm that consisted of about 5 acres. That's no longer sustainable because times have changed. Our professions and culture have to change with that.


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    #1379
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Why keep saying you're unwell? :confused:

    And why keep faux apologising and saying you're unable to reply properly? You're replying in detail - including sticking in a load of unnecessary question marks and other redundant punctuation.


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    #1380
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Sorry what do you mean by why? Because they are like a foreign nation in many ways. Would you eg ask French people to stop being French? To change eg food, language?

    At present the attitudes expressed are exacerbating the situation. Travellers are never going to conform to ordinary Irish standards. It is not in their ... culture.. to do so. Not in their makeup. That was why the govt(?) statement was made about them being a different culture etc.

    sorry; too weary and in pain to say more as some of you are jumping on me and I need all my wits to repsond. properly

    But clesarly the current attitide is getting nowhere. They will never conform as you are seeking.

    blessings and peace

    You say travellers "are never going to conform to ordinary Irish standards" - people who don't conform to society's standards are forced to do so by law - that's what prevents anarchy. Travellers should not be outside the law.
    The comparison with the French is strange - if French people were insisting that French law applied in Ireland, they would not be tolerated. Travellers should not be allowed to impose their so-called culture on the rest of society. If they want us to fund their lifestyles (and it seems the vast majority do), then they should be subject to the same rules as the rest of us.


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    #1381
    xi5yvm0owc1s2b
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭xi5yvm0owc1s2b


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Yes I get all that but noone is making any suggestions that do not involve cutting existing benefits that would rebound on existing children?

    Well, then, change the system for future children. After a couple has two children, the rate of compensation drops for each additional child and cuts off entirely after child #5. Make that rule effective January 1st 2020, and Travellers will have to think twice about their reproductive decisions.
    And probably as this is a cultural heritage thing, you are aiming too high in wanting them to change? what you call "the cycle" is their way of life for generations.

    Why should settled people have to adapt to changing times while Travellers are allowed to play the "cultural heritage" card and resist change? In many parts of the country, settled people have had to give up their traditional way of life, such as farming or fishing, when it was no longer economically sustainable. The exact same principles should apply to Travellers. If your traditional way of life can't support you anymore, sorry, but that's life -- you need to find a job elsewhere.
    But is always reads as if you are trying to make Travellers into ordinary Irish people? They are different Foreigners in many ways and with different priorities?

    Genetic tests show that Travellers are of Irish descent. They are not "foreigners" at all. And yes, I do think that Travellers should educate their children, not marry off their daughters at age 16, not marry their cousins, get jobs, pay taxes, obey the law, reproduce responsibly, stop feuding, and respect the property of others. If that means I want them to become "ordinary people," then so be it. The laws and norms of civilized society should apply to everyone in the country without exception. Nobody gets to live outside the law because "it's my culture."


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