Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Spook_ie · 19-11-2018 6:17pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

He's followed that up by calling for a Westminster vote on the WA this Thursday, even though it doesn't become a finalised, official document until the European summit on Sunday.

And according to Sky news, rumblings from Spain over Gibraltar.

Water John · 19-11-2018 6:19pm

The number of known letters to Brady is +2 incl Teresa Villiers, making it 25. Seems more maybe 12, have told Baker but haven't put in the letters.

I presume as Ciarraioch says, it's nor an official offer until it's passed on Sunday. Whilst Barnier and his team did the negotiations, they do not have the mandate to ratify.
The night David was on QT at the time of his appointment, I made him out to be an oaf, and that has been proved correct.

Rhineshark · 19-11-2018 6:51pm

Water John wrote: »

The number of known letters to Brady is +2 incl Teresa Villiers, making it 25. Seems more maybe 12, have told Baker but haven't put in the letters.

I presume as Ciarraioch says, it's nor an official offer until it's passed on Sunday. Whilst Barnier and his team did the negotiations, they do not have the mandate to ratify.
The night David was on QT at the time of his appointment, I made him out to be an oaf, and that has been proved correct.

How is it possible that Davis has gotten to the age he is without ...I don't know, forgetting to breathe and dying of asphyxiation?

How in the name of anything appropriate was he ever put in charge of anything?

Four and a half months to B-day and he's still regurgitating 2016-level nonsense.

cryptocurrency · 19-11-2018 6:52pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

And according to Sky news, rumblings from Spain over Gibraltar.

They’ve been rumbling for years.

Rjd2 · 19-11-2018 6:56pm

This so far looks like a really crap coup from Baker and JRM as they still look no closer than 48 numbers, if anything they may have hurt there own brand.

No wonder why someone as treacherous like Gove has resisted sticking the knife in as he knows the numbers are simply not their.

https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1064572689774493697

The ERG isn’t a happy family. One member tells me the letter-wavers look like bullies. “This is all going to fizzle out and Moggy and Baker will get singed.” They added that they could back the deal: “If Cameron offered what May is offering, I would have snapped his hand off.”

Some ERG MPs spoke to their local associations over the weekend and were encouraged to get behind the PM. An MP who has attended ERG meetings for 12 months said Rees Mogg, Baker are “greedy” and that May would “easily” win a no confidence vote. This hasn’t gone well for JRM, etc.

A senior Conservative MP tells me the ERG has really misread the mood. “Some MPs went back to their associations expecting them to be clamouring to get rid of the PM but what they got instead was people saying ‘what the f**k do you think you’re doing?’”

Spook_ie · 19-11-2018 6:56pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

They’ve been rumbling for years.

But much louder since they read the WA document, talk already of adding an annex to the agreement.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&source=undefined&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwi45v7Wg-HeAhXC-aQKHX2dDDYQzPwBCAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Felpais.com%2Felpais%2F2018%2F11%2F19%2Finenglish%2F1542632114_326650.html&psig=AOvVaw2wxvNdxfj0ttFCMGDXm1px&ust=1542736561637471

cryptocurrency · 19-11-2018 6:58pm

Inquitus wrote: »

I don't think they could get away with unilaterally cancelling Brexit without having a 2nd Referendum, it would be thwarting the will of the people, and would probably be even more divisive than the current situation.

There's only 2 options as I see it, and even a General Election will lead to one of them:
2nd Referendum

Hard Brexit

A 2nd referendum will make a mockery of democracy and solve nothing. There has been a vote in 2015 to have the referendum on the Tory manifesto. The referendum result and then other election where the Tories remained the biggest party. The only parties that were against Brexit done terrible. SNP has a bad night as did the Lib Dems. There is no justification at all for a 2nd referendum, especially since the never even implemented the results of the others. The British will never trust democracy again.

cryptocurrency · 19-11-2018 7:00pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

But much louder since they read the WA document, talk already of adding an annex to the agreement.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&source=undefined&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwi45v7Wg-HeAhXC-aQKHX2dDDYQzPwBCAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Felpais.com%2Felpais%2F2018%2F11%2F19%2Finenglish%2F1542632114_326650.html&psig=AOvVaw2wxvNdxfj0ttFCMGDXm1px&ust=1542736561637471

Do you think the UK cares what Spain think. Gib is strategically important to the UK and the Spanish need to wind their necks in. Aren’t the busy locking up Catalans for want to separate from them while being supported by the EU.

theguzman · 19-11-2018 7:04pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I nearly completely agree. However, it really has to be a referendum as too many politicians are scared to argue against the will of the people trope. It's a nonsense but it's also very powerful and implies treachery and treason to anyone who dares think otherwise.

A general election is just going to dodge the issue as the usual voters will just vote Tory/Labour regardless.

Basically there should be another referendum until the democratic will of the people is overwritten. That is not democracy that is a diktat from a Dictatorship.

blanch152 · 19-11-2018 7:11pm

theguzman wrote: »

Basically there should be another referendum until the democratic will of the people is overwritten. That is not democracy that is a diktat from a Dictatorship.

Were you against the recent abortion referendum which overturned the three previous ones?

joe40 · 19-11-2018 7:12pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Inquitus wrote: »

I don't think they could get away with unilaterally cancelling Brexit without having a 2nd Referendum, it would be thwarting the will of the people, and would probably be even more divisive than the current situation.

There's only 2 options as I see it, and even a General Election will lead to one of them:
2nd Referendum

Hard Brexit

A 2nd referendum will make a mockery of democracy and solve nothing. There has been a vote in 2015 to have the referendum on the Tory manifesto. The referendum result and then other election where the Tories remained the biggest party. The only parties that were against Brexit done terrible. SNP has a bad night as did the Lib Dems. There is no justification at all for a 2nd referendum, especially since the never even implemented the results of the others. The British will never trust democracy again.

The British should not be trusted with democracy.
I'm been tongue in cheek, but until now there was a lot of lies peddled. Even including may downplaying the effects of a no deal in blatant posturing. She said "no deal is better than a bad deal" the British public were never told how disastrous no deal would be. Realisation starting to hit home now so I think another vote is warranted. GE no good since apart from lib dems others want Brexit. So the country would be no further forward post election.

ancapailldorcha · 19-11-2018 7:26pm

theguzman wrote: »

Basically there should be another referendum until the democratic will of the people is overwritten. That is not democracy that is a diktat from a Dictatorship.

If it were the will of the people, Leave would win a referendum based on facts. The fact that there is so much hostility towards a people's vote which, incidentally was mooted by both Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg indicates that these shadowy elites and oligarchs know full well that they were damned lucky to get over the line in 2016.

theguzman · 19-11-2018 7:28pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Were you against the recent abortion referendum which overturned the three previous ones?

Totally different situations with 16 years between referenda. The previous referenda sought to further tighten the restrictions on Abortion which was rejected in 2002, wheras this year the trend towards liberalisation continued. So actually the will of the people continued and strengthened from 2002 which contradicts your entire point.

peter kern · 19-11-2018 7:29pm

theguzman wrote: »

Basically there should be another referendum until the democratic will of the people is overwritten. That is not democracy that is a diktat from a Dictatorship.

the problem is if a brexit secretary had no notion how important the dover callais connection is ...how many ordinary people could have made an informed decison what brexit would mean in 2015 .
If they had another referendum now they could make a judgement based more on facts.
and it should be

hard brexit
current deal

no brexit they should vote for

i think the last refrendun was more a muppet show than a referendum

( by both remainers and leavers, with frarage likely the worst but it was a pathetic time how facts ( which nobody had bothered to actually find before they could vote ) were presented.

what i still cant understand why where brits that live aborad not allowed to vote but neither europeans that lived in the uk ?
its should have been all british passport holder to decide as those 1 million abraod are just as affected by that decison.

theguzman · 19-11-2018 7:30pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If it were the will of the people, Leave would win a referendum based on facts. The fact that there is so much hostility towards a people's vote which, incidentally was mooted by both Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg indicates that these shadowy elites and oligarchs know full well that they were damned lucky to get over the line in 2016.

There is facts which the leave voters reject as lies and try to brand anyone who points out the obvious as a bigot, racist or fool. Such hostility drove people to do the opposite of what they are being spoonfed by the BBC and Guardian etc.

ancapailldorcha · 19-11-2018 7:32pm

theguzman wrote: »

There is facts which the leave voters reject as lies and try to brand anyone who points out the obvious as a bigot, racist or fool. Such hostility drove people to do the opposite of what they are being spoonfed by the BBC and Guardian etc.

Can you substantiate any of this? What, specifically is this based on?

fash · 19-11-2018 7:33pm

The original brexit referendum specifically failed to specify any type of brexit- deliberately so that brexiters of all different types would project their own hopes onto it. Now that a single concrete brexit is proposed, so the exact type of brexit is known, how is it not a good idea to bring that to the people. In fact, it should have been done this way originally - with remain or a specific exit strategy.

badtoro · 19-11-2018 7:34pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Inquitus wrote: »

I don't think they could get away with unilaterally cancelling Brexit without having a 2nd Referendum, it would be thwarting the will of the people, and would probably be even more divisive than the current situation.

There's only 2 options as I see it, and even a General Election will lead to one of them:
2nd Referendum

Hard Brexit

A 2nd referendum will make a mockery of democracy and solve nothing. There has been a vote in 2015 to have the referendum on the Tory manifesto. The referendum result and then other election where the Tories remained the biggest party. The only parties that were against Brexit done terrible. SNP has a bad night as did the Lib Dems. There is no justification at all for a 2nd referendum, especially since the never even implemented the results of the others. The British will never trust democracy again.

Would a retrial in a case where lies were told make a mockery of justice?

theguzman · 19-11-2018 7:34pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Can you substantiate any of this? What, specifically is this based on?

The pontificating of Bob Geldof on the Thames alone hardened the resolve of thousands of voters to side with Brexit.

ancapailldorcha · 19-11-2018 7:37pm

theguzman wrote: »

The pontificating of Bob Geldof on the Thames alone hardened the resolve of thousands of voters to side with Brexit.

And the rest of the 17.4 million?

theguzman · 19-11-2018 7:41pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

And the rest of the 17.4 million?

The made up their mind for whatever reason they choose, open-doors immigration played a huge part in it as did David Cameron's failed attempt where he went to the EU to seek a better deal for the UK and they have him nothing.

The EU don't compromise nor do they reform, it is anti-Democratic system for centralising power away from member states directly to Brussels where quislings will do the bidding of Merkel and Macron.

ancapailldorcha · 19-11-2018 7:42pm

theguzman wrote: »

...directly to Brussels where quislings will do the bidding of Merkel and Macron.

Can you substantiate this please?

blanch152 · 19-11-2018 7:43pm

theguzman wrote: »

Totally different situations with 16 years between referenda. The previous referenda sought to further tighten the restrictions on Abortion which was rejected in 2002, wheras this year the trend towards liberalisation continued. So actually the will of the people continued and strengthened from 2002 which contradicts your entire point.

Actually there were six different referenda on abortion in Ireland, some passed, some not.

Situations change, so you need to check views.

The situation has changed dramatically regarding Brexit since the referendum took place. What was a leap into the unknown is now clear, and a check that the people still want to take that leap seems sensible.

Is there something you fear?

Enzokk · 19-11-2018 7:46pm

theguzman wrote: »

The pontificating of Bob Geldof on the Thames alone hardened the resolve of thousands of voters to side with Brexit.

People are idiots. They need to be saved from themselves sometimes. Look at this example,

Leave-supporting Llanelli left reeling as manufacturing industry moves out due to Brexit

The Welsh town of Llanelli – which voted 56.7 per cent to leave the EU in the referendum – has been left reeling after a major manufacturer upped sticks due to Brexit.

Global firm Schaeffler announced this week that it is to close its plant in Llanelli due to uncertainty over Britain’s departure from the European Union.

The closure was described as the “tremor that will lead to the Brexit earthquake” in the Welsh Assembly, with Juergen Ziegler, the company’s regional CEO, saying that the “need to plan for various complex scenarios” due to Brexit had played a part in their decision to leave Wales.

The warnings were given to people but they were branded as project fear. Now that the effects are known the Brexiteers are trying to sell to people that they should have actually listened to the warnings that were given. The fact that they branded the same warnings as nothing to be worried about is to be ignored.

I don't think it is unkind to say that anybody that persists with the idea that what they voted for in 2016 was explained to them is living in an alternate reality. It is obvious that due to the lies that were told and the law breaking that the Leave campaigns conducted during the campaign that the decision should be set aside and a new referendum should be run.

SimonTemplar · 19-11-2018 8:06pm

What seems more undemocratic:

A referendum for leaving the EU with absolutely no concrete specifics on what that entails, and therefore open to lies, misinterpretations and unkeepable promises.

A referendum for leaving the EU with a detailed description on what a post-Brexit relationship with the EU would look like.

An Ciarraioch · 19-11-2018 8:09pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Spook_ie wrote: »

And according to Sky news, rumblings from Spain over Gibraltar.

They’ve been rumbling for years.

RTE article on the Gib story:

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1119/1011805-brexit-transition-barnier/

LeinsterDub · 19-11-2018 8:11pm

theguzman wrote: »

The made up their mind for whatever reason they choose, open-doors immigration played a huge part in it as did David Cameron's failed attempt where he went to the EU to seek a better deal for the UK and they have him nothing.

The EU don't compromise nor do they reform, it is anti-Democratic system for centralising power away from member states directly to Brussels where quislings will do the bidding of Merkel and Macron.

The EU and it's predecessors have constantly reformed. If you want a lack of reform I'd suggest having a look at the house of lords and the joke that is PMQs

Spook_ie · 19-11-2018 8:23pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

RTE article on the Gib story:

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1119/1011805-brexit-transition-barnier/

So it would seem that if you're an EU country you can have bilateral talks about Gibraltar but if you're an EU country you can't have bilateral talks about NI, who would've thunk it!

ancapailldorcha · 19-11-2018 8:26pm

theguzman wrote: »

It is night-time here in Siberia comrade.

No more of this nonsense please.

cryptocurrency · 19-11-2018 8:30pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The EU and it's predecessors have constantly reformed. If you want a lack of reform I'd suggest having a look at the house of lords and the joke that is PMQs

It’s the constant change that makes remain an utterly insane idea. The EU has changed a huge amount since the UK joined in the 70s and the nation hasn’t been given no say and any vote now to remain would be another extended period watching helplessly from the side lines as it marches to federalization. Remain is the most unacceptable option on any vote without it clearly noting a substantial number of ideas being mooted by the EU triggering another referendum in the UK.
EU army ... to the people
Tax harmonization... to the people
Federalization.., To the people
Euro... to the people
New members.... to the people
The next junker ... direct to the people
Refugee quotas ...to the people
Bail out of memeber states ... to the people

And so on and on , they want the veto gone so remain is not an option

That is the only option to remain on a ballot

theguzman · 19-11-2018 8:34pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

No more of this nonsense please.

I was accused of being a Russian bot because I logged in at evening time.

ancapailldorcha · 19-11-2018 8:38pm

theguzman wrote: »

I was accused of being a Russian bot because I logged in at evening time.

Report the posts please rather than bringing it up on thread please. Ditto for throwing around accusations of anyone being a bot.

LeinsterDub · 19-11-2018 8:39pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

It’s the constant change that makes remain an utterly insane idea.

So the EU so both too stuck in it's ways and changing too much. This is brexit in a nutshell for you.

Water John · 19-11-2018 8:40pm

BTW a correction on earlier, Teresa Villiers says she has not submitted a letter. This ERG haven't a bloody clue, even what their own ardent supporters are doing.

theguzman · 19-11-2018 8:43pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Report the posts please rather than bringing it up on thread please. Ditto for throwing around accusations of anyone being a bot.

Sure thing, thanks for that.

cryptocurrency · 19-11-2018 8:47pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So the EU so both too stuck in it's ways and changing too much. This is brexit in a nutshell for you.

The parliament is named after a communist. The constitution was written by a communist. The worship communists. It’s gonna eat itself and before you know it like all socialists when they lose the grip of things they will become more and more totalitarian until before you know it they are putting “bad eggs” up against the wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xg7JwbJfWA

Water John · 19-11-2018 8:52pm

This Coummunist construct that Corbyn is against because it won't allow state aid and won't allow the state to move business into state ownership?
Most people accuse the EU of being a Capitalist construct.

An Ciarraioch · 19-11-2018 8:53pm

Meanwhile, back in the world of reality, the DUP are abstaining on every finance bill vote tonight, which suggests the supply and confidence agreement is virtually dead:

http://twitter.com/Peston/status/1064605627031396352

theguzman · 19-11-2018 8:53pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The parliament is named after a communist. The constitution was written by a communist. The worship communists. It’s gonna eat itself and before you know it like all socialists when they lose the grip of things they will become more and more totalitarian until before you know it they are putting “bad eggs” up against the wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xg7JwbJfWA

The problem with communism is it stifles development and eventually they run out of other peoples money to spend. Look at the utterly disgraceful way Greece was treated by the EU during the sovereign debt crisis.

LeinsterDub · 19-11-2018 8:57pm

theguzman wrote: »

The problem with communism is it stifles development and eventually they run out of other peoples money to spend. Look at the utterly disgraceful way Greece was treated by the EU during the sovereign debt crisis.

What has the alleged communism of the EU got to do with the Greek debt crisis? The paranoid delusions of some on this thread are truly worrying.

cryptocurrency · 19-11-2018 8:58pm

Water John wrote: »

This Coummunist construct that Corbyn is against because it won't allow state aid and won't allow the state to move business into state ownership?
Most people accuse the EU of being a Capitalist construct.

EU is communist but still has the thin veil of just socialism for now but these speed of its march to communism isn’t fast enough for Corbyn.
Corbyn wants Brexit so he can seize assets, land and start re-education on day one. They are all dangerous nutters.

An Ciarraioch · 19-11-2018 9:00pm

theguzman wrote: »

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The parliament is named after a communist. The constitution was written by a communist. The worship communists. It’s gonna eat itself and before you know it like all socialists when they lose the grip of things they will become more and more totalitarian until before you know it they are putting “bad eggs” up against the wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xg7JwbJfWA

The problem with communism is it stifles development and eventually they run out of other peoples money to spend. Look at the utterly disgraceful way Greece was treated by the EU during the sovereign debt crisis.

You do realise Syriza originated as the result of a schism within the official Greek Communist Party? If they (and Italy) hadn't fiddled the books to meet the euro convergence criteria, and had made the slightest effort to crack down on tax evasion, the country would never have ended up in a mess.

fash · 19-11-2018 9:01pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

EU is communist but still has the thin veil of just socialism for now but these speed of its march to communism isn’t fast enough for Corbyn.
Corbyn wants Brexit so he can seize assets, land and start re-education on day one. They are all dangerous nutters.

fash wrote: »

...

I am still waiting for your detailed response to my post here

Water John · 19-11-2018 9:01pm

Doubt Varioufakis agrees with the two of you. Most would say Greece was hauled into line at the behest of the banks. Goldman Sachs are the ones who profited from the Greek economic collapse.
You are so far removed from the reality of what is going on, I won't be engaging further with either Currency or Guz.

19-11-2018 9:01pm

theguzman wrote: »

Basically there should be another referendum until the democratic will of the people is overwritten. That is not democracy that is a diktat from a Dictatorship.

Hmmm, so the 2016 referendum shouldn’t have been held then since the UK voted 2 to 1 to stay in the EEC back in 1975?

cryptocurrency · 19-11-2018 9:04pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

You do realise Syriza originated as the result of a schism within the official Greek Communist Party? If they (and Italy) hadn't fiddled the books to meet the euro convergence criteria, and had made the slightest effort to crack down on tax evasion, the country would never have ended up in a mess.

Fiddled the books or not, it just shows the EU doesn’t do the right checks at the time and then once the countries are in they are owned. The EU must have had an idea but still the country accumulation of Greece and Italy was too much to resist.

cryptocurrency · 19-11-2018 9:07pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hmmm, so the 2016 referendum shouldn’t have been held then since the UK voted 2 to 1 to stay in the EEC back in 1975?

No he is saying they can have a vote every 40 years to change back. The EU will be gone by then

theguzman · 19-11-2018 9:07pm

The same rules and monetary policy for Greece and Finland is a grotesque example of how the EU is totally flawed. Two different economies with different cultures.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 19-11-2018 9:19pm

theguzman wrote: »

The pontificating of Bob Geldof on the Thames alone hardened the resolve of thousands of voters to side with Brexit.

Bob Geldof protesting against Brexit is the equivalent of Farage coming over to Ireland and advocating for a no vote on an EU Treaty. It is simply going to force a certain percentage to immediately take the opposing view.

FrancieBrady · 19-11-2018 9:22pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Meanwhile, back in the world of reality, the DUP are abstaining on every finance bill vote tonight, which suggests the supply and confidence agreement is virtually dead:

http://twitter.com/Peston/status/1064605627031396352

Does that mean the government will be defeated?

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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