Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Hurrache · 18-11-2018 10:18PM

Raab's behaviour continues to amaze me though, what a weasel
https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1064101177573425152?s=19

Donald Trump · 18-11-2018 10:18PM

theguzman wrote: »

Watch from 08:25 forward.

I would suggest anyone either anti-EU or pro-EU to listen to this video and it most definitely makes for eye opening listening.

The EU is about control and rather than the prevention of war it is all about German control and achieving continental domination, economically, militarily and politically.

So, given the mask is slipping somewhat, please come out and just say what your motive is.

Thread is about Brexit. What do you want? Paddy to tag along on the coat-tails of the great British Empire again because it would suit them better if we did?

If you want an "Irexit", then why not just sit back, do some quiet preparation and wait for the fantastic resurgence of the UK and the British Empire? At which stage poor Paddy will only be too delighted to come crawling back to his betters and former masters. Just let time do the work for you

Surely that would be the better way to proceed if you think "Irexit" is some sort of panacea to all the problems in Ireland

Imreoir2 · 18-11-2018 10:20PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I’m sure the posters here championing the EU are the same ones who laughed about an EU army (and a few now support it after TV telling them it’s good) and are still laughing about tax harmonization....it’s all happening folks, get used to it.

I don't think anyone has been laughing about the concept of an EU army. They have been laughing at the notion that Ireland would be forced to join an EU army against our will. Liking or lothing the concept of an EU army is one thing, people can debate the merits of such a proposal, what is laughable is the idea that we can be forced into such an establishment against our will. It betrays a fundemental lack of understanding of the EU, how it opporates and our place within it. The same is true of tax harminisation. Again, there is a debate to be had on the merits of the proposal, there is no debate to be had on the risk of it being forced upon us against our will.

Go peddle the propoganda somewhere else, this is supposed to be a place for serious discussion.

theguzman · 18-11-2018 10:21PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah well, given that the Brits were here for 800 years and made shite of the place for us, I'll take the evil EU overlords who at least gave us nice roads and one of the wealthiest economies in the world. Beats war and population control through starvation in my book at least!

Better the Devil you know so? How about nobody tell us what to do and we maintain total Independence? The Irish state is holds over €600 billion in liabilities to the EU and is a net contributor to the EU budget, like the British people I think it is time for this to stop.

The EU has enforced its social policy such as Abortion and Gay marriage and the refernda were pushed from Europe under Human Rights concerns. Water Charges are a Reality, ask any business or consumer of water more than the quota. There is no EU military occupation but there is control of this country, ask any turf cutter or farmer, or unskilled worker. The amount of bureacracy and idiosyncrasy from Europe gets worse every single year.

The EU is about a wealthy liberal elite who think they can enforce their ideals across a vastly diverse continent, where different cultures and ways of life prevail. It is a project doomed to failure in my opinion, free-trade was fine but everything since has been about centralising control and dominating the smaller countries.

theguzman · 18-11-2018 10:27PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

So, given the mask is slipping somewhat, please come out and just say what your motive is.

Thread is about Brexit. What do you want? Paddy to tag along on the coat-tails of the great British Empire again because it would suit them better if we did?

If you want an "Irexit", then why not just sit back, do some quiet preparation and wait for the fantastic resurgence of the UK and the British Empire? At which stage poor Paddy will only be too delighted to come crawling back to his betters and former masters. Just let time do the work for you

Surely that would be the better way to proceed if you think "Irexit" is some sort of panacea to all the problems in Ireland

Leaving the EU is just one of the ways to fix what is wrong in Ireland, but it certainly a good step in the right direction, we cannot address crimes with Capital punishment due to our membership of the EU, mindless enviornmental regulations from the EU is destroying our enviornment. 10% of Diesel to include Palm Oil to lower Co2 for the looney Global Warming theory, never mind the fact that it will destroy thousands of Diesel Engines and acclerate the rates of Deforestation in South East Asia and Brazil. But it will suit the German Auto manufacturers so one must obey and implement EU rules because the EU is run for the benefit of the Franco-German alliance.

Leroy42 · 18-11-2018 10:30PM

Has Raab explained why the Eu wants NI so badly that they are prepared to bully the UK to get it?

Dark forces? So the EU refused to give Cameron a better deal on the basis that it would lead to ref, which Leave would win, that TM would take over and immediately state that she and the UK would stick with the GFA and guarantee no hard border?

And then get Davis to resign and bring Raab in, and throughout all this has worked on the fiendish scheme to get the real prize of NI? To what end? Its not geographically important like Gibraltar? It has nothing unique that doesn't exist within the rest of the EU? It requires massive subsidies each year just to exist?

Even people in the ROI aren't rushing out to get NI so why would the EU?

oscarBravo · 18-11-2018 10:30PM

theguzman wrote: »

...Capital punishment... mindless enviornmental regulations from the EU... the looney Global Warming theory... the EU is run for the benefit of the Franco-German alliance.

Are we playing bingo? Is there a drinking game I missed?

Nody · 18-11-2018 10:34PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Are we playing bingo? Is there a drinking game I missed?

At this time I think we're past drinking game towards funny colored pill dare challenge by the looks of it; well that or some of the residents in The Cuckoo's Nest escaped but they are usually more entertaining.

Hurrache · 18-11-2018 10:38PM

theguzman wrote: »

Better the Devil you know so? How about nobody tell us what to do and we maintain total Independence? The Irish state is holds over €600 billion in liabilities to the EU and is a net contributor to the EU budget, like the British people I think it is time for this to stop.

The EU has enforced its social policy such as Abortion and Gay marriage and the refernda were pushed from Europe under Human Rights concerns. Water Charges are a Reality, ask any business or consumer of water more than the quota. There is no EU military occupation but there is control of this country, ask any turf cutter or farmer, or unskilled worker. The amount of bureacracy and idiosyncrasy from Europe gets worse every single year.

The EU is about a wealthy liberal elite who think they can enforce their ideals across a vastly diverse continent, where different cultures and ways of life prevail. It is a project doomed to failure in my opinion, free-trade was fine but everything since has been about centralising control and dominating the smaller countries.

Jesus Christ, I never thought it was possible to include so many falsehoods into the one post.

theguzman · 18-11-2018 10:38PM

Look guys I'm trying to make my side of the debate, I'm not calling anyone names or being disrespectful, I don't necessarily agree with the EU but I damn well respect and defend peoples rights to support it and challenge me on what I have to say. This is what a democratic debate it usually supposed to be about. If everyone is a yes man then why bother have a Democracy we should just install someone like Xi Jinping as President for life and be in North Korea.

breatheme · 18-11-2018 10:39PM

theguzman wrote: »

We are a Vassal state, occupied by the Franco/German EU empire,

Not a single EU country is a vassal state. If you want an example of a vassal state, look at how England treats its fellow constituent "countries".

Varadkar and co. are our quisling Government implementing law from Brussels,

"law from Brussels" is a lie. Laws are made IN Brussels BY the EU member states. It's not the same thing. Brussels's are Dublin's laws and they are also London's. That will cease to be true.

we have no say in EU matters and makeup 0.89% of the EU population.

We have as much as a say in the EU Council, Council of the EU (Council of Ministers) and there is also an Irish Commissioner in the Commission.

We are in the exact same position today as 100 years ago but instead of British Rule we are under EU rule,

They are not the same position at all. Back when the Irish rejected the first draft Lisbon treaty, and Ireland made the EU take it back to the drawing board. The concerns of the Irish people were taken into account and the treaty was changed to address the issues of the Irish voters. Afterwards, they got to vote again on the amended text, and it passed.

Ireland, tiny little Ireland, got the EU to change Lisbon for them. That's the power of Ireland in the EU. It never had that power in the UK. And nowadays...that would never fly in the UK, can you imagine Scotland getting to do that? I can't.

an EU Army is looming large to occupy countries should any other country try a Brexit style stunt.

Doubtful. The EU Army is an idea floating around due to concern that we can't rely on the US for protection.

Germany is currently striving to attain a Nuclear bomb and with an EU Army they will achieve this by controlling the French stockpile.

This is just silly anti-German paranoia. It's been 70 years. People need to get over that, so let it go. We may as well keep bringing up the famine then. That was the UK doing that to what was then its own country.

The EU promote migration and social engineering to ensure the population remains docile and obedient and not one shot has to be fired.

Let's put this here in big and bold letters:

The EU is not responsible for non-EU migration and every member state is entitled to have its own immigration laws for third countries.

Furthermore, there are checks and controls EU countries can use to curb EU immigration (like waiting two years after accession to grant full Freedom of Movement to a country, for example).

We have come a far way from a trading agreement.

Yes, isn't it great?

The EU has imperial ambitions and this is becoming clearer every day.

It doesn't. Not at all. Empires are expansionist and hostile by nature. The EU has focused on soft-power. Countries willingly join the EU. And as we have seen with the UK, they can peacefully and willingly leave anytime they want.

The only people who think the EU is an empire are Brits who after conquering the whole world, are paranoid that someone will come and do that to them.

Hurrache · 18-11-2018 10:41PM

theguzman wrote: »

Look guys I'm trying to make my side of the debate,

Facts would be a good start, give those a try.

theguzman · 18-11-2018 10:44PM

The Irish Government signed our country up to PESCO a precursor to an EU Army, the people were not consulted when it should have gone to a Referendum. Irish Neutrality does not exist and this was a blatant breach of our Neutrality to ally us towards an EU battlegroup.

PeadarCo · 18-11-2018 10:46PM

theguzman wrote:

Look guys I'm trying to make my side of the debate, I'm not calling anyone names or being disrespectful, I don't necessarily agree with the EU but I damn well respect and defend peoples rights to support it and challenge me on what I have to say. This is what a democratic debate it usually supposed to be about. If everyone is a yes man then why bother have a Democracy we should just install someone like Xi Jinping as President for life and be in North Korea.

Yes but democratic debate must be grounded in facts. Ignoring facts doesn't make them disappear. Many of the issues the UK are facing with Brexit were well flagged beforehand.

Most of what you have posted are myths with little grounding in reality. It's these myths that have got UK into a mess. Part of what we are seeing in the UK is those myths are being shown up for what they are. Some Brexiters are finding this very hard to take.

Nate--IRL-- · 18-11-2018 10:48PM

theguzman wrote: »

The Irish Government signed our country up to PESCO a precursor to an EU Army, the people were not consulted when it should have gone to a Referendum.

What article of the Irish Constitution does it contravene to require a referendum?

Nate

Headshot · 18-11-2018 10:49PM

pikebishop wrote: »

stumbled across this recent adam boulton pod cast. i wasnt expecting much from him but i thought one of the guests David Allen Green was a breath of freah air with cutting through all the bull****.

https://audioboom.com/posts/7087699-brexit-the-legalities-and-the-politics

That was a great listen and your right David really comes comes across as knowing his stuff.

breatheme · 18-11-2018 10:50PM

theguzman wrote: »

The Irish Government signed our country up to PESCO a precursor to an EU Army, the people were not consulted when it should have gone to a Referendum. Irish Neutrality does not exist and this was a blatant breach of our Neutrality to ally us towards an EU battlegroup.

As of now, PESCO operates with every project being opt-in or opt-out. So Ireland can opt-out of the projects that would threaten its neutrality.

We'll see how it develops.

PeadarCo · 18-11-2018 10:50PM

theguzman wrote:

The Irish Government signed our country up to PESCO a precursor to an EU Army, the people were not consulted when it should have gone to a Referendum. Irish Neutrality does not exist and this was a blatant breach of our Neutrality to ally us towards an EU battlegroup.

Irish neutrality doesn't exist we rely on the UK for air defence. That alone should tell you how much power the EU has given Ireland. Without the EU backing the UK could tell Ireland to get lost with regard to the border issue and there is nothing Ireland could do.

theguzman · 18-11-2018 10:53PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

Irish neutrality doesn't exist we rely on the UK for air defence. That alone should tell you how much power the EU has given Ireland. Without the EU backing the UK could tell Ireland to get lost with regard to the border issue and there is nothing Ireland could do.

A hard border would be in the National Interest of both countries.

Pa8301 · 18-11-2018 10:53PM

theguzman wrote: »

A hard border would be in the National Interest of both countries.

Why?

Folkstonian · 18-11-2018 11:07PM

Double post. Oops!

Folkstonian · 18-11-2018 11:12PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I don't think anyone has been laughing about the concept of an EU army. They have been laughing at the notion that Ireland would be forced to join an EU army against our will. Liking or lothing the concept of an EU army is one thing, people can debate the merits of such a proposal, what is laughable is the idea that we can be forced into such an establishment against our will. It betrays a fundemental lack of understanding of the EU, how it opporates and our place within it. The same is true of tax harminisation. Again, there is a debate to be had on the merits of the proposal, there is no debate to be had on the risk of it being forced upon us against our will.

Go peddle the propoganda somewhere else, this is supposed to be a place for serious discussion.

It’s a subtle but important change in the narrative that you allude to though.

It’s now branded laughable that Ireland, or any state, could be forced into a joint EU military against its wish.

Not long ago, however, it was laughable that an EU military should even be brought up in any debate about the future of the Europe.

It was a ‘dangerous fantasy’ according to Nick Clegg, and many contributors here agreed with him I’m sure.

The reality now is that the concept has public support from some very powerful European politicians - Verhofstadt and Macron among them - for a European army to protect European interests.

A question I have for the much more pro-EU posters here (which I accept is the vast majority)...

Are you in any way uneasy about the path that the EU is in some danger of going down over the next few years?

We are now seeing..
- Calls from serious politicians, with serious clout, for a European military
- Calls for joint budgets from the same individuals
- Pressure on individual states to walk the party line on matters of foreign policy
- Calls this week for states to surrender ‘more sovereignty’ to the European Union

I think it’s no secret that whilst I favoured staying in the EU on balance, I was one of the ‘reluctant remainers’ who voted with head and not heart. I see the benefits of being in a European Union and still fear an economic car crash.. but I don’t feel any particular attachment to it as a ‘project’ past that and certainly I had (and still have) reservations about where the whole thing is going..

And this movement towards ‘more Europe’ does really unsettle me a little bit.

There has been so much said about more and more integration in recent weeks - possibly as a result of Brexit with EU politicians feeling emboldened by the imminent departure of the biggest eurosceptic voice in Brussels - that honestly, if there was another Brexit vote next week I’d be very torn as to which way I voted.

So what do people think? Does my natural british Euroscepticism make me overthink it? Do you fear that Ireland might be drawn into a project that goes beyond what you ever envisioned the Eu would be? Or are you all for the full steam ahead to a much closer union?

Kermit.de.frog · 18-11-2018 11:15PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

Irish neutrality doesn't exist we rely on the UK for air defence.

This.

This is the reason Ireland can not be neutral. To this day it refuses to take national defence seriously and if you have no hope of defending your neutrality by definition you can not be neutral.

Mr.Nice Guy · 18-11-2018 11:20PM

Don't know if it was mentioned but Corbyn worryingly appears to believe the transition period is a formality, as opposed to being something that requires the Withdrawal Agreement getting approval on all sides.

https://twitter.com/timoconnorbl/status/1064268519393640450

Imreoir2 · 18-11-2018 11:29PM

theguzman wrote: »

The Irish Government signed our country up to PESCO a precursor to an EU Army, the people were not consulted when it should have gone to a Referendum. Irish Neutrality does not exist and this was a blatant breach of our Neutrality to ally us towards an EU battlegroup.

PESCO is not a precusor to an EU army, it is a precursor to a common EU Defence Policy. Why should this have been put to a referendum? It did not require a change to our constitution. How can Irish neutrality both not exist and be breached, in the same scentance?

Irish neutrality does not really exist, we don't act like a neutral country. We have a long standing governmental policy of neutrality, and people like to think we are neutral, but in reallity we have been a non-aligned country. Participation in EU defence projects might be a change to our traditional non-alignment but given the public opinion of the EU, I doubt the government are too concerned about a backlash should they align the country with Europe in defence matters.

First Up · 18-11-2018 11:32PM

theguzman wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah well, given that the Brits were here for 800 years and made shite of the place for us, I'll take the evil EU overlords who at least gave us nice roads and one of the wealthiest economies in the world. Beats war and population control through starvation in my book at least!

Better the Devil you know so? How about nobody tell us what to do and we maintain total Independence? The Irish state is holds over €600 billion in liabilities to the EU and is a net contributor to the EU budget, like the British people I think it is time for this to stop.

The EU has enforced its social policy such as Abortion and Gay marriage and the refernda were pushed from Europe under Human Rights concerns. Water Charges are a Reality, ask any business or consumer of water more than the quota. There is no EU military occupation but there is control of this country, ask any turf cutter or farmer, or unskilled worker. The amount of bureacracy and idiosyncrasy from Europe gets worse every single year.

The EU is about a wealthy liberal elite who think they can enforce their ideals across a vastly diverse continent, where different cultures and ways of life prevail. It is a project doomed to failure in my opinion, free-trade was fine but everything since has been about centralising control and dominating the smaller countries.

We tried "total independence" in the 1930s during DeValera's "economic war". The result was people fighting with cattle for space on the ferries to Liverpool and Holyhead.

Our independence reallt began when Lemass (and TK Whittaker) threw that ideological rubbish in the bin and started our engagement with the rest of the planet. Free trade with the UK and then EU membership allowed us turn our talent into opporunity and has made us one of the most successful countries on the planet.

Nobody in the EU told me out to vote in any referendum and I feel a lot less dominated as a citizen of an EU member state than I would dancing at DeValera's crossroads in a "truly independent" Ireland.

LeinsterDub · 18-11-2018 11:33PM

https://twitter.com/GuitarMoog/status/1064278229970796545
Tick tock tick tock lads. The UK still negotiating with it self.

jm08 · 18-11-2018 11:52PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

Irish neutrality doesn't exist we rely on the UK for air defence. That alone should tell you how much power the EU has given Ireland. Without the EU backing the UK could tell Ireland to get lost with regard to the border issue and there is nothing Ireland could do.

We rely on the UK for air defence against whom?

The only reason anyone would want to attack Ireland is if they wanted to attack the UK and used Ireland as a route.

Its in the UK's interests that Ireland allow them to patrol its airspace.

Seth Brundle · 18-11-2018 11:52PM

Hurrache wrote: »

Raab's behaviour continues to amaze me though, what a weasel
https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1064101177573425152?s=19

"Dark Forces"?
Does Rabb think he's a Jedi Master?

theguzman wrote: »

A hard border would be in the National Interest of both countries.

Aah would you stop with this childish nonsense? It's getting tiresome!

Imreoir2 · 19-11-2018 12:05AM

Folkstonian wrote: »

A question I have for the much more pro-EU posters here (which I accept is the vast majority)...

Are you in any way uneasy about the path that the EU is in some danger of going down over the next few years?

We are now seeing..
- Calls from serious politicians, with serious clout, for a European military
- Calls for joint budgets from the same individuals
- Pressure on individual states to walk the party line on matters of foreign policy
- Calls this week for states to surrender ‘more sovereignty’ to the European Union

Brexit has forced a significant and widespread re-evaluation of the EU and it's purpose right accross Europe, much as Brexiteers predicted it would.

Where the Brexiteers got it wrong is that they assumed that this process of re-evaluation would be the signal for the collapse of the EU. In reality the opposit has happened. The EU has had proponents of integration and indeed federalism from the start. These people have responded to Brexit by suggesting that the answer to Europe's problems is more EU, not less. They have made their case for further integration.

As the re-evaluation of the EU which was sparked by Brexit has taken place, and we all gained a much greater understanding of the EU, it's benefits, and limitations, their arguments have proven to be quite persuasive. For many people, myself included, the more they got to know the EU and how it functions, the more they were impressed by an institution that works quietly and effectivly and improves the lives of it's citizens in countless ways. Many people who never really gave the EU much of a thought have become convinced that the European Project is a worthwhile one. While there are many complaints that one can make about the EU, in my opinion the most valid complaints stem from the fact that the European project has not gone far enough, not that it has gone too far.

Rational people of good will can debate the merits of further integration amongst member states. I don't see why such a discussion should concern anyone.

The important thing for me is that it is the case that member states can choose to go as far down the road of integration as they see fit, and stop at whatever point they feel is best. It remains the choice of the member state how far they wish to integrate. It is never something that is forced upon them, unless you count the weight of necessity or the too great cost of isolation as being forced. If a convincing argument can be made that greater co-operation and integration is beneficial, of that a given issue or policy area is best delt with at the European level, then EU members are free to co-operate in that area. If such a convincing argument is not forthcoming, then member states are free to continue to deal with an issue at national, regional or local level as the case may be. No one is being forced to integrate into the EU against their will.

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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