Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

13-11-2018 09:27PM

thesaturdayman wrote: »

Where is this figure of 8-10k per club per year being brought out of? Or who made it up?

I roughly worked it out in my head. It was said in the past a 1-2k levy for clubs for walsh park redevelopment, at a €5/€6 million developement.

Louth GAA are spending €8 million on a 12k stadium. So us moving to a greenfield site and constructing a 15-20k ground, would be at least €15-€20 million so its not hard to imagine a levy somewhere in between 5-10k, I am open to correction.

Munster council CEO stated fully funding a greenfield developed could have interest repayments of up to 500k per year. 50 clubs in the county that would be 10k a club!

thesaturdayman · 13-11-2018 09:39PM

914 wrote: »

I roughly worked it out in my head. It was said in the past a 1-2k levy for clubs for walsh park redevelopment, at a €5/€6 million developement.

Louth GAA are spending €8 million on a 12k stadium. So us moving to a greenfield site and constructing a 15-20k ground, would be at least €15-€20 million so its not hard to imagine a levy somewhere in between 5-10k, I am open to correction.

Munster council CEO stated fully funding a greenfield developed could have interest repayments of up to 500k per year. 50 clubs in the county that would be 10k a club!

It could , it could not.

The figures quoted are to say the least - dubious.

Scaremongering to the highest end. Mind you can understand munster Gaa not wanting to support any kind of project in Waterford as they bailed us out to tune of 500k 3 years ago.

If Carriganore was visited properly in terms of funding from all bodies, dep of sport, education, Munster council, central council, sports capital, regional development.

Plus private funding

Plus levies (existing levels)

Plus walsh Park funds ex sale/development

Plus any other events that could be run on bi yearly basis - concerts etc.

This would be a much more viable financial proposition with longevity, then papering over the cracks in walsh Park, a half arsed please all solution, keep the west happy & it’ll do.

Ever wonder why we have won 1 all Ireland in 50 years?

This is the living example of half arsed, “it’ll do” attitude that goes to the core of Waterford Gaa. Instead of leading the way for the county, we will just limp along & it’ll never change.

The cronies and stooges be wheeled out at convention, musical chairs, they’ll swap seats but it’ll still be the tired old faces driving another nail into the coffin of the Gaa here

13-11-2018 09:47PM

thesaturdayman wrote: »

It could , it could not.

The figures quoted are to say the least - dubious.

Scaremongering to the highest end. Mind you can understand munster Gaa not wanting to support any kind of project in Waterford as they bailed us out to tune of 500k 3 years ago.

If Carriganore was visited properly in terms of funding from all bodies, dep of sport, education, Munster council, central council, sports capital, regional development.

Plus private funding

Plus levies (existing levels)

Plus walsh Park funds ex sale/development

Plus any other events that could be run on bi yearly basis - concerts etc.

This would be a much more viable financial proposition with longevity, then papering over the cracks in walsh Park, a half arsed please all solution, keep the west happy & it’ll do.

Ever wonder why we have won 1 all Ireland in 50 years?

This is the living example of half arsed, “it’ll do” attitude that goes to the core of Waterford Gaa. Instead of leading the way for the county, we will just limp along & it’ll never change.

The cronies and stooges be wheeled out at convention, musical chairs, they’ll swap seats but it’ll still be the tired old faces driving another nail into the coffin of the Gaa here

run on bi yearly basis - concerts, not a fear of it. Look at all the fine GAA Grounds around the country, that host little or no concerts.

I wouldn't be depending on concerts.

Also private investment would that not open it up to other sports therefore breaking GAA rules? Can not see to much private investment unless investor's get a return.

Possibly filling to capacity twice a year will not provide and return for any potential investor.

Looking at it realistically do you really see a need for greater capacity than 16k for the next 15-20 years?

Lucky to get 2k at county finals, a couple of hundred at munster club semi final.

7/8k attendances at league games.

Not a sell out for u21 Munster final and we the home team.

thesaturdayman · 13-11-2018 09:49PM

914 wrote: »

run on bi yearly basis - concerts, not a fear of it. Look at all the fine GAA Grounds around the country, that host little or no concerts.

I wouldn't be depending on concerts.

Also private investment would that not open it up to other sports therefore breaking GAA rules? Can not see to much private investment unless investor's get a return.

Possibly filling to capacity twice a year will not provide and return for any potential investor.

Looking at it realistically do you really see a need for greater capacity than 16k for the next 15-20 years?

Lucky to get 2k at county finals, a couple of hundred at munster club semi final.

7/8k attendances at league games.

Not a sell out for u21 Munster final and we the home team.

1 concert to the tune of Ed sheeran in cork every decade would be worth €25k per year to the local Gaa - rebate of €5k per club or contribution toward county board.

Cork made 250k per gig x3.

1 Every decade - let that sink in.

16-18k is sufficient btw didn’t answer this, modernise facilities, proper expanded pitch etc.

13-11-2018 09:51PM

thesaturdayman wrote: »

1 concert to the tune of Ed sheeran in cork every decade would be worth €25k per year to the local Gaa - rebate of €5k per club or contribution toward county board.

Cork made 250k per gig x3.

1 Every decade - let that sink in.

And what if we can't get one every decade?

We could get two a decade or three but we could also get none.

250k per three gigs would pay the interest for 1.5 years.

thesaturdayman · 13-11-2018 09:55PM

914 wrote: »

And what if we can't get one every decade?

We could get two a decade or three but we could also get none.

250k per three gigs would pay the interest for 1.5 years.

What if we get 3 gigs?

500k interest on what? A 40m loan is it? What pie in the sky number does that interest refer to! How much of a loan? From who what terms ? How long? Talking absolute scaremongering & rubbish & anyone believes it is a bigger fool.

13-11-2018 09:57PM

thesaturdayman wrote: »

What if we get 3 gigs?

500k interest on what? A 40m loan is it? What pie in the sky number does that interest refer to! How much of a loan? From who what terms ? How long? Talking absolute scaremongering & rubbish & anyone believes it is a bigger fool.

I did say that, we could get three, four or five gigs but we could also get none!

Back to my initial point...

Looking at it realistically do you really see a need for greater capacity than 16k for the next 15-20 years?

Lucky to get 2k at county finals, a couple of hundred at munster club semi final.

7/8k attendances at league games.

Not a sell out for u21 Munster final and we the home team.

thesaturdayman · 13-11-2018 10:01PM

914 wrote: »

I did say that, we could get three, four or five gigs but we could also get none!

Back to my initial point...

Looking at it realistically do you really see a need for greater capacity than 16k for the next 15-20 years?

Lucky to get 2k at county finals, a couple of hundred at munster club semi final.

7/8k attendances at league games.

Not a sell out for u21 Munster final and we the home team.

Yea but what about down the line a rugby World Cup? Euro championships? Waterford isn’t set up for it at all. There are plenty ways to make money beyond Bruce Springsteen & Ed sheeran.

15-20k is plenty, admittedly probably too much & by the way, I think the walsh Park one in itself is Ok - bar the planning restrictions. But there is a chance to put down proper roots into next 30 years.

As I said earlier, our “leaders” and people at the wheel have no vision, they can’t see beyond their next carvery dinner.

We should be investing in the future not catching up on the past.

13-11-2018 10:06PM

thesaturdayman wrote: »

Yea but what about down the line a rugby World Cup? Euro championships? Waterford isn’t set up for it at all. There are plenty ways to make money beyond Bruce Springsteen & Ed sheeran.

As I said earlier, our “leaders” and people at the wheel have no vision, they can’t see beyond their next carvery dinner.

We should be investing in the future not catching up on the past.

Again its all well and good but if we get no concerts, no rugby no european championships how do we then pay for it.

Limerick, gaelic grounds 50k and no concerts, rugby or european champions. Now if we had a jp in waterford then go for it but unfortunately we don't.

As for the figures earlier, €1 million euro loan over five years would have interest repayments of approx €160k over the 5 years

thesaturdayman · 13-11-2018 10:09PM

914 wrote: »

Again its all well and good but if we get no concerts, no rugby no european championships how do we then pay for it.

Limerick, gaelic grounds 50k and no concerts, rugby or european champions. Now if we had a jp in waterford then go for it but unfortunately we don't.

As for the figures earlier, €1 million euro loan over five years would have interest repayments of approx €160k per year.

If u look at my original post all this additional Revenue is a bonus. I listed out about 5 forms of grants + other not to different from current proposal. Sale of walsh Park also.

My god - who you getting the loan from? Provident? Borrow 1m & pay back 1.8m over 5 years? 80% interest??

13-11-2018 10:20PM

thesaturdayman wrote: »

If u look at my original post all this additional Revenue is a bonus. I listed out about 5 forms of grants + other not to different from current proposal. Sale of walsh Park also.

My god - who you getting the loan from? Provident? Borrow 1m & pay back 1.8m over 5 years? 80% interest??

Sorry slip of the finger, the joys of typing on the phone. A €1 million loan at 5.5% over 5 years would be approx 18/19k repayments per month.

Looking at the money that was pumped into PUC I'd say we wouldn't get a whole load from GAA HQ, sports council, etc....

Look at the hassle WIT had trying to get emergence funding to finish WIT arean.

thesaturdayman · 13-11-2018 10:22PM

914 wrote: »

Sorry slip of the finger, the joys of typing on the phone. A €1 million loan at 5.5% over 5 years would be approx 18/19k repayments per month.

Looking at the money that was pumped into PUC I'd say we wouldn't get a whole load from GAA HQ, sports council, etc....

Look at the hassle WIT had trying to get emergence funding to finish WIT arean.

That was then, this is now. They got it it’s built. Build it and they will come.

County board paid them 60k renting it off them in 2016.

Anyways said what I have to say, this county is well and truly fcked.

Deiseen · 13-11-2018 10:25PM

Would these kind hearted gentlemen not throw some money in for Walsh Park?

If they have Waterford GAA's best interests at heart then surely they could pump a few million into aul WP?

13-11-2018 10:26PM

thesaturdayman wrote: »

That was then, this is now. They got it it’s built. Build it and they will come.

County board paid them 60k renting it off them in 2016.

Anyways said what I have to say, this county is well and truly fcked.

We'll agree to disagree. I would like to see your plan and vision come to the fore but at this present time I can not see it being financial viable.

Horse on with Walsk Park now. Build a relationship with WIT and private investor's over the next few years, put a proper sustainable plan in place to relocate over the next 15 - 25 years if it is required.

Get our county teams back playing at home now and work on a future ground then.

HatchetMan7 · 14-11-2018 04:04AM

Deiseen wrote: »

Would these kind hearted gentlemen not throw some money in for Walsh Park?

If they have Waterford GAA's best interests at heart then surely they could pump a few million into aul WP?

If they have Waterford GAA's best interests at heart they won't put one cent into Walsh Park. These are business men/women and they know a thing or two about what's a good investment long term and what's not.

20+ years ago it was obvious that Walsh Park should have been sold and build a new stadium just outside the city. In 20 years time we'll be saying the same thing. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Walsh Park when redeveloped will not be able to hold concerts, cannot have floodlights, no room to expand pitch or stands in the future and poor parking facilities. The clubs have no backbone, they were threatened with more levies and bottled it. Its no wonder we've waited nearly 60 years and counting to win the all Ireland.

The bottom line is that we need a stadium that attracts young players to dream about playing hurling and football in that stadium or else we could lose them to other sports. In my opinion the redevelopment of Walsh Park is a serious setback to the long term future of Waterford GAA.

bruschi · 14-11-2018 09:38AM

As an outsider looking in, I cant believe the direction Waterford GAA are going with Walsh Park. There is serious scope for return on investment with the sale of the grounds for housing development, whether through government issue build or private development. It was canned when the crash it in 08, but now is the opportunity to take advantage of a housing crisis again. Making the clubs pay a levy is something that seems unique to Waterford too, I cant say I've heard of any other county holding its clubs to ransom like this.

Walsh Park is one of the worst grounds in terms of access around. Yes, I imagine many of you will come on and tell me of all these other grounds, including Wexford Park, where access and parking is an issue. But other grounds having it bad is no reason to keep your own one bad. The entrance areas are being changed in these new plans I assume, because the turnstile set up is also one of the slowest ones to get crowds into a game, our league game between Waterford and Wexford this year a prime example.

It was mentioned that Gaelic grounds get no concerts or games etc. Well they have hosted AI semi finals, they have hosted AI finals at other grades, they have had international rules games, and they had a National Geographic concert this year there. Wexford has rarely had any other events in its grounds, but there is a stadium there to hold events if needed and plenty of room for club games without looking sparse when played.

Again, as an outsider, I dont understand the whole Fraher field and Walsh Park divide between east and west. I get there is an underlying issue that is always there between the regions, but surely having one top class stadium is better than 2 below average mediocre ones?

A co development with WIT, Munster council and south east tourism/sports development on a Carriganore site, just off the motorway with plenty of green field space makes a huge amount of sense to me. Tinkering with an inner city ground with no scope of large scale development and not being future proof is very much papering cracks until the issue arises once again in ten years or so.

Deiseen · 14-11-2018 10:30AM

bruschi wrote: »

As an outsider looking in, I cant believe the direction Waterford GAA are going with Walsh Park. There is serious scope for return on investment with the sale of the grounds for housing development, whether through government issue build or private development. It was canned when the crash it in 08, but now is the opportunity to take advantage of a housing crisis again. Making the clubs pay a levy is something that seems unique to Waterford too, I cant say I've heard of any other county holding its clubs to ransom like this.

Walsh Park is one of the worst grounds in terms of access around. Yes, I imagine many of you will come on and tell me of all these other grounds, including Wexford Park, where access and parking is an issue. But other grounds having it bad is no reason to keep your own one bad. The entrance areas are being changed in these new plans I assume, because the turnstile set up is also one of the slowest ones to get crowds into a game, our league game between Waterford and Wexford this year a prime example.

It was mentioned that Gaelic grounds get no concerts or games etc. Well they have hosted AI semi finals, they have hosted AI finals at other grades, they have had international rules games, and they had a National Geographic concert this year there. Wexford has rarely had any other events in its grounds, but there is a stadium there to hold events if needed and plenty of room for club games without looking sparse when played.

Again, as an outsider, I dont understand the whole Fraher field and Walsh Park divide between east and west. I get there is an underlying issue that is always there between the regions, but surely having one top class stadium is better than 2 below average mediocre ones?

A co development with WIT, Munster council and south east tourism/sports development on a Carriganore site, just off the motorway with plenty of green field space makes a huge amount of sense to me. Tinkering with an inner city ground with no scope of large scale development and not being future proof is very much papering cracks until the issue arises once again in ten years or so.

Could you explain how a stadium 4 miles out of town has better access than a stadium in the city centre near to car parks, train station and bus station?

hardybuck · 14-11-2018 10:33AM

Also, can anyone point out any other county, or indeed any sport, that has closed their urban based ground and developed a green field site?

TheScoringGoal · 14-11-2018 10:40AM

hardybuck wrote: »

Also, can anyone point out any other county, or indeed any sport, that has closed their urban based ground and developed a green field site?

Parnells and Ballymun in Dublin, to varying degrees of success. In fairness I don't think either make a definitive argument for or against your underlying point.

My biggest concern is where Ryan says that when Walsh Park is done they can turn their attention to Fraher. This is crazy. Waterford can manage one stadium. Now is the time to decide which one. If he goes ahead with this we will be back in exactly the same situation.

Deiseen · 14-11-2018 10:59AM

TheScoringGoal wrote: »

Parnells and Ballymun in Dublin, to varying degrees of success. In fairness I don't think either make a definitive argument for or against your underlying point.

My biggest concern is where Ryan says that when Walsh Park is done they can turn their attention to Fraher. This is crazy. Waterford can manage one stadium. Now is the time to decide which one. If he goes ahead with this we will be back in exactly the same situation.

I agree with you 100% but Fraher does need a bit of work. Sounds like they are just going to concrete it

hardybuck · 14-11-2018 11:13AM

TheScoringGoal wrote: »

Parnells and Ballymun in Dublin, to varying degrees of success. In fairness I don't think either make a definitive argument for or against your underlying point.

My biggest concern is where Ryan says that when Walsh Park is done they can turn their attention to Fraher. This is crazy. Waterford can manage one stadium. Now is the time to decide which one. If he goes ahead with this we will be back in exactly the same situation.

Parnells actually did the exact opposite. They sold land out by the airport for a fortune and moved back into their catchment area in Coolock. The club are literally a laughing stock in Dublin because they went broke afterwards and alienated their player base by drafting in imports.

Ballymun as a club were only founded in 1969, and were out in a place cut off from everywhere and had no facilities anyway.

You'll find plenty of clubs who did this sort of thing, but no grounds of any significance have gone this route to my knowledge.

TheScoringGoal · 14-11-2018 11:19AM

hardybuck wrote: »

Parnells actually did the exact opposite. They sold land out by the airport for a fortune and moved back into their catchment area in Coolock. The club are literally a laughing stock in Dublin because they went broke afterwards and alienated their player base by drafting in airports.

Ballymun as a club were only founded in 1969, and were out in a place cut off from everywhere and had no facilities anyway.

You'll find plenty of clubs who did this sort of thing, but no grounds of any significance have gone this route to my knowledge.

Apologies you're right Parnells are in Coolock. I was aware of the amount of money they spend on games development officers and they speculated a bit by buying and building at their new site. But no wonder they went into hardship if they started building airports there

hardybuck · 14-11-2018 11:21AM

TheScoringGoal wrote: »

Apologies you're right Parnells are in Coolock. I was aware of the amount of money they spend on games development officers and they speculated a bit by buying and building at their new site. But no wonder they went into hardship if they started building airports there

Haha - I meant imports!

bruschi · 14-11-2018 11:50AM

hardybuck wrote: »

Also, can anyone point out any other county, or indeed any sport, that has closed their urban based ground and developed a green field site?

Any sport? It regularly happens in a lot of other sports. Look at soccer clubs in England who have relocated. Most of Germanys big clubs have all had their stadiums out of the city centre. A lot of American football teams relocated inner city stadiums to bigger sites outside the city.

Here is an article that discusses some soccer clubs moves away from city centres. http://www.stadiumguide.com/moving-places-how-far-do-clubs-go-to-get-a-new-stadium/

I'd much rather a ground that was in an open dedicated sporting facility area, close to better road networks that didnt have parking over peoples front gates. It wouldnt take a whole lot to have shuttle busses or public transport from centres to grounds either if required, but how many people travel to Walsh Park on public transport anyway? I'd say it would be minimal. Not an insurmountable challenge. You'd be able to have more dedicated parking spaces on a green field site than parking spaces used in the city centre by people travelling in cars.

hardybuck · 14-11-2018 11:56AM

bruschi wrote: »

Any sport? It regularly happens in a lot of other sports. Look at soccer clubs in England who have relocated. Most of Germanys big clubs have all had their stadiums out of the city centre. A lot of American football teams relocated inner city stadiums to bigger sites outside the city.

Here is an article that discusses some soccer clubs moves away from city centres. http://www.stadiumguide.com/moving-places-how-far-do-clubs-go-to-get-a-new-stadium/

I'd much rather a ground that was in an open dedicated sporting facility area, close to better road networks that didnt have parking over peoples front gates. It wouldnt take a whole lot to have shuttle busses or public transport from centres to grounds either if required, but how many people travel to Walsh Park on public transport anyway? I'd say it would be minimal. Not an insurmountable challenge. You'd be able to have more dedicated parking spaces on a green field site than parking spaces used in the city centre by people travelling in cars.

What I really meant was in Ireland. Aviva, Croke Park, Thomond, Ravenhill and Sportsground in Galway all redeveloped in existing urban locations.

I made the point just last week about how poor the experience of going to out of town stadia in the likes of Paris and Germany is. I referenced the Allianz Arena in Munich, which is 20-30 minutes by train outside Munich and the Stade de France which is similar (albeit in St.Denis). I mentioned how neither city has any big game feel, and people scatter to the four winds after the fixture.

America is well known for its reliance on cars and the donut effect on city centres, where development in the subarbs was prioritised.

You'd like to park somewhere outside Waterford, and leave it quickly afterwards. This wouldn't benefit Waterford at all.

DiscoStew · 14-11-2018 11:56AM

HatchetMan7 wrote: »

The clubs have no backbone, they were threatened with more levies and bottled it.

I think that’s a very harsh statement. Some clubs could comfortably afford such levies but there is lots of smaller clubs that were under huge pressure to pay the last levies but did so, even though the debt incurred was of no doing of theirs.
Many people, im not saying you are one of them by the way, who are not affiliated with clubs are offering their opinion on this topic and asking the clubs to pay off so much yet it will cost them nothing as they are not members of any club.

My own biggest grievance with Walsh Park is simply no floodlights. This rules out Saturday night league games straight away which often brings people into the towns for overnight trips. It also rules out us playing any night challenge games there to get used to the surroundings and also rules out night time club games being played there.

I think it was alluded to earlier, but the Munster Council are calling the shots and saying take this cheaper option as we have bailed ye out recently and will not be doing so again if we were to run into any difficulty paying off the proposed Carriganore stadium.

freedominacup · 14-11-2018 12:16PM

dboss wrote: »

From what I hear and see these business men who only hang around the Waterford senior hurling team are out of touch with the GAA .These hangers on are not involved in GAA clubs they dont relies how hard it is to come up with 2000 euro to pay county levels ,They dont relies how hard it is to knock on the same door within the community to buy a lotto ticket,Deise Draw tickets , A ticket for development work in our own club. Clubs dont need this debt. Walsh park will be grand we wont have to sleep there (I hope ) . How much did the county senior teams run over budget last year ? Why is there such a Gap bewteen football and hurling budgets. What has happen with our underage success why arent we competing in Munster finals ?Why is football so bad at county level when clubs represents us well in Munster. If these men really care about Waterford GAA these are the questions that need answering, I'd settle for great teams rather than flashy facilities we need more money & people pumped in at underage level, All our county teams are under funded at all levels hurling and especially football and Can someone please inform Eamon Keane that Walsh Park will be the home of Waterford GAA not Waterford hurling and while your at it will you remove the hands of these business men from his h*** and tell him stop being a puppet for these so called Waterford hurling men SORRY Waterford GAA men

You need to start listening to a few more people. I only know one of them but he has always sponsored club teams consistently over the past almost forty years. I would be quite willing to bet he was at many more underage games than you were over the past few years. Not a club stalwart by any means but far from out of touch. He has put plenty of his own time and money into supporting county teams and money into club teams for decades. If he's typical of the type of business owner that us involved with the supporters group they are far from out of touch with clubs.

The clubs want a kick in the hole and I'd include myself in this. We should have ensured that we had our delegates at that meeting on Monday with their instructions rather than letting the usual semi institutionalised oul lads off to be brow beaten by the executive.

deiseach · 14-11-2018 12:28PM

I understand the preference some people have for Carriganore, but the notion that the choice is between paradise there and hell in Walsh Park is ridiculous. It's impossible to have a discussion with people who think that the Walsh Park option is wrong on every level when the reality is that all the options (including Fraher) have their strengths and weaknesses. The proposals for Walsh Park are a huge improvement on what we have. They may not be perfect, but you know what perfect is the enemy of.

Deiseen · 14-11-2018 01:20PM

deiseach wrote: »

I understand the preference some people have for Carriganore, but the notion that the choice is between paradise there and hell in Walsh Park is ridiculous. It's impossible to have a discussion with people who think that the Walsh Park option is wrong on every level when the reality is that all the options (including Fraher) have their strengths and weaknesses. The proposals for Walsh Park are a huge improvement on what we have. They may not be perfect, but you know what perfect is the enemy of.

I love the idea of a top class facility in Carriganore but just can't accept the distance from town or the cost involved.

There's no such understanding from the anti-walsh brigade....

PTH2009 · 14-11-2018 03:50PM

were in group b in the Munster Hurling league 2019 along with Cork and Clare. Fixtures will be played after xmas

Grp A is Limerick, Tipp and Kerry

All teams in each group play each other once with the top team in each group facing off in the final on the 13th Jan

be nice to get some game time before the start of the league unlike we did this year

Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

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