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IRFU land sale

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24

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    #32
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Also it could be worth a lot more. There’s a deal for 44m if it gets removed withing 10 years.


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    #33
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Jesus, I'd hope not. The pitch was lost in the middle if croke Park. It was like being in a ground with a running track.

    A Retractable lower tier could be used or something similar


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    #34
    scooby77
    Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭scooby77


    €27 million initially! From indo:
    "However, if the land is re-zoned in the next 10 years the IRFU will be entitled to an additional payment equal to 44pc of the market value of the lands at that date, minus the initial purchase price, and subject to certain minimum payments."

    https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/hibernia-reit-acquires-over-90-acres-from-the-irfu-for-27m-37518073.html

    Sounds like could be worth more. Hardly any accountants/property development type heads on a rugby thread such as this who'd guesstimate a future figure??? :-)


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    #35
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Presumably that crowd will just sit on it for 10 years and a day and save themselves millions.


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    #36
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Presumably that crowd will just sit on it for 10 years and a day and save themselves millions.

    It can be rezoned without any desire by them.


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    #37
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    ted1 wrote: »
    It can be rezoned without any desire by them.

    Why would authorities just rezone private land, against the will of its owners, for no reason?


    Unless someone is gaining financially of course...........


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    #38
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Presumably that crowd will just sit on it for 10 years and a day and save themselves millions.

    Vacant site tax will make it less likely, they'll have to pay 3% tax every year of the market value of the site if it's lying vacant, as of next year.

    Probably why the IRFU sold up now.


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    #39
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Is that not what the IRFU are all about though? Rugby growth and development in Ireland?

    Plus, it wouldn't be actually spending money. It'd just be taking in less on a sale.

    I think the €27 million will help grow rugby in Ireland hugely. Creating new club grounds is not really that important in terms of that happening. There are plenty of clubs in Dublin with grounds of their own, who are struggling to get new members. How does having another club help develop the game? Tallaght RFC already has land as far as I’m aware? So is it Clondalkin you’d be thinking of, or an entirely new club?


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    #40
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Why would authorities just rezone private land, against the will of its owners, for no reason?


    Unless someone is gaining financially of course...........

    Because there’s a housing crisis. Once rezoned they can then apply a vacant land tax and force development


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    #41
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Tallaght RFC already has land as far as I’m aware? ?

    Nope. Playing on council pitch (tymon) , with a lengthy walk from changing facilities (Tallaght community school) .

    Training on a council pitch on firhouse Road with a container to change in and a small generator to light the inside of the container and a couple of lights strapped to it that lights an area about a quarter of the size of a pitch but not any of the actual pitch on the site (which is far from anything that could be considered flat), which means all training (4 nights a week between men and women) is on that patch and it's churned to a mud pit within a couple of weeks of the weather turning. Parking is across the road in firhouse community college as well so not on site. If they decide they are not opening the grounds in the evening the only other place is the small housing estate beside the school, and I could see that getting to be a sore point with residents fairly quickly.

    Clondalkin are grand. They've 2 pitches and a permanent building with a bar and changing rooms.


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    #42
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    ted1 wrote: »
    Because there’s a housing crisis. Once rezoned they can then apply a vacant land tax and force development

    10 years of 3% tax on 27m value would be less than half of what they would have to pay the IRFU.

    They may well be planning to build straight away, but then again they might not. They've been sitting on other land there for a while already so it all depends on whether this is the last bit they were after.


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    #43
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Nope. Playing on council pitch (tymon) , with a lengthy walk from changing facilities (Tallaght community school) .

    Training on a council pitch on firhouse Road with a container to change in and a small generator to light the inside of the container and a couple of lights strapped to it that lights an area about a quarter of the size of a pitch but not any of the actual pitch on the site (which is far from anything that could be considered flat), which means all training (4 nights a week between men and women) is on that patch and it's churned to a mud pit within a couple of weeks of the weather turning. Parking is across the road in firhouse community college as well so not on site. If they decide they are not opening the grounds in the evening the only other place is the small housing estate beside the school, and I could see that getting to be a sore point with residents fairly quickly.

    Clondalkin are grand. They've 2 pitches and a permanent building with a bar and changing rooms.

    I thought Tallaght bought land up in Kiltipper no?

    It’s funny Tallaght used to share that pitch in Tymon with the warriors. Changing in the school for matches and also the postal club. I’m surprised they didn’t follow the warriors down the same route of renting off another club. Worked out far better for them.


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    #44
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,307 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    stephen_n wrote: »
    I thought Tallaght bought land up in Kiltipper no?

    It’s funny Tallaght used to share that pitch in Tymon with the warriors. Changing in the school for matches and also the postal club. I’m surprised they didn’t follow the warriors down the same route of renting off another club. Worked out far better for them.

    Yeah I thought they’d got land up kiltipper alright although I did hear there was a lot of work to be done.

    Getting land anywhere big enough for pitches and a clubhouse these days would be a big ask financially. Whilst I wouldn’t object to irfu giving Tallaght a hand in anyway I’d imagine it would result in other clubs looking for things too. It may set a precedent.


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    #45
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    salmocab wrote: »
    Yeah I thought they’d got land up kiltipper alright although I did hear there was a lot of work to be done.

    Getting land anywhere big enough for pitches and a clubhouse these days would be a big ask financially. Whilst I wouldn’t object to irfu giving Tallaght a hand in anyway I’d imagine it would result in other clubs looking for things too. It may set a precedent.

    The kiltipper thing fell through a few years back.

    I think the opportunity was there with this land being a relatively unique situation. I'm not sure how many other pockets of land they have around the country.

    If it had been done as a long term sale I can't see anyone having a legitimate complaint. Surely anyone in rugby would rather see a club getting settled over land being sold externally . From a selfish point of view I'm sure lads would rather have nice dressing rooms and a bar over a long walk from a school or getting changed at the side of a pitch when visiting.:)

    stephen_n wrote: »

    It’s funny Tallaght used to share that pitch in Tymon with the warriors. Changing in the school for matches and also the postal club. I’m surprised they didn’t follow the warriors down the same route of renting off another club. Worked out far better for them.

    Yeah there's been various things mooted but nothing much came of any of them. Maybe a return to Tallaght in a joint venture on a nice plot somewhere would be best for the warriors :) just the small matter of the land first ............

    Mary's was a good move for them alright, I was surprised at the start though. Pitches seem to be closed a lot in winter. If lads spit too much in training the pitches are unplayable down there :)


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    #46
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,035 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Vacant site tax will make it less likely, they'll have to pay 3% tax every year of the market value of the site if it's lying vacant, as of next year.

    Probably why the IRFU sold up now.

    The site is currently used as farmland and is exempt from the vacant site tax.


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    #47
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,035 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Nope. Playing on council pitch (tymon) , with a lengthy walk from changing facilities (Tallaght community school)

    Training on a council pitch on firhouse Road with a container to change in and a small generator to light the inside of the container and a couple of lights strapped to it that lights an area about a quarter of the size of a pitch but not any of the actual pitch on the site (which is far from anything that could be considered flat), which means all training (4 nights a week between men and women) is on that patch and it's churned to a mud pit within a couple of weeks of the weather turning. Parking is across the road in firhouse community college as well so not on site. If they decide they are not opening the grounds in the evening the only other place is the small housing estate beside the school, and I could see that getting to be a sore point with residents fairly quickly.

    Clondalkin are grand. They've 2 pitches and a permanent building with a bar and changing rooms.

    With respect but you are playing An Beal Bocht here and not in a good way at that. The current pitch used by the club is across a road from the school and has a traffic light provided. The club has key access to the school gates and changing rooms in the school, which are open at the weekends for a communal gym and hall. Distance wise it's no more lengthy a walk from the changing rooms to pitch side than is seen at many clubs across the country.

    As regards the training facilities, they are inadequate but they are no worse off than many other clubs, some of which aren't a million miles away from them. Tallaght RFC have had support from HQ yet they still have struggled to find a long term home base, this being their fourth in about 20 years. While the IRFU should help any club that needs it, I don't think it's entirely fair to extend that help to handing any club a free home pitch when there are other clubs in the city that are lacking a home ground of their own.


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    #48
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    10 years of 3% tax on 27m value would be less than half of what they would have to pay the IRFU.

    They may well be planning to build straight away, but then again they might not. They've been sitting on other land there for a while already so it all depends on whether this is the last bit they were after.
    Are you factoring the cost of providing the finance fir buying the land? Also the gamble of a market Crash in 11 years ?


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    #49
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    The site is currently used as farmland and is exempt from the vacant site tax.

    Its 8 km from the city and owner by a REIT which puts it in the councils radar.


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    #50
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    With respect but you are playing An Beal Bocht here and not in a good way at that. The current pitch used by the club is across a road from the school and has a traffic light provided. The club has key access to the school gates and changing rooms in the school, which are open at the weekends for a communal gym and hall. Distance wise it's no more lengthy a walk from the changing rooms to pitch side than is seen at many clubs across the country. .

    I don't see where I said it wasn't across the road, in fact, my words were "parking is across the road......." . Weekend access to changing rooms isn't much good when training is during the week.
    Use of any school grounds is at the discretion of a school and could change at any point in the future. Don't see where that can be disputed.
    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    as regards the training facilities, they are inadequate but they are no worse off than many other clubs, some of which aren't a million miles away from them. Tallaght RFC have had support from HQ yet they still have struggled to find a long term home base, this being their fourth in about 20 years. While the IRFU should help any club that needs it, I don't think it's entirely fair to extend that help to handing any club a free home pitch when there are other clubs in the city that are lacking a home ground of their own.
    No one said give the club a free home. Each time it was mentioned I think I said on some sort of rent to buy or long term sale agreement.


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    #51
    Mc Love
    Registered Users Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    I wonder will they put the money into the club game as it's seriously lacking in terms of promotion and getting fans back/encouraging new fans to join their local rugby club.


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    #52
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Mc Love wrote: »
    I wonder will they put the money into the club game as it's seriously lacking in terms of promotion and getting fans back/encouraging new fans to join their local rugby club.

    I'm going to do my best The Lost Sheep impression and ask, what would you suggest they use the money for in terms of helping clubs? Other than splitting it evenly across all teams.


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    #53
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,332 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    I'm going to do my best The Lost Sheep impression and ask, what would you suggest they use the money for in terms of helping clubs? Other than splitting it evenly across all teams.
    I think that's what they said they'd do with it. I wonder will it dovetail with the stated intention of creating a semi-pro league from the top echelons of division 1?


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    #54
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I think that's what they said they'd do with it. I wonder will it dovetail with the stated intention of creating a semi-pro league from the top echelons of division 1?

    Would be nice to see them do a revamp of the league system, but again requires buy in from the clubs.


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    #55
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,169 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Mc Love wrote: »
    I wonder will they put the money into the club game as it's seriously lacking in terms of promotion and getting fans back/encouraging new fans to join their local rugby club.

    The investment is needed in the 16 to 22 year old range.

    Solve that massive drop off and you solve a huge amount of the issues.

    Invest in more local development officers to help clubs improve standards , provide financial support to clubs to help them hold on to players after they leave school.

    Lots of things that should be done..


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    #56
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,332 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    The investment is needed in the 16 to 22 year old range.

    Solve that massive drop off and you solve a huge amount of the issues.
    That's an issue that bedevils all sports. It's not really something that can be changed because that's the age group that's moved into serious study time and something usually has to give. It's like that old adage of university being the three Ss: Study, Social and Sport and you can only successfully do two of them.


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    #57
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Would be nice to see them do a revamp of the league system, but again requires buy in from the clubs.
    What would you want in a revamp of the league system and do you want revamp at junior levels as well as senior as theres many issues in the junior leagues not just AIL.
    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    The investment is needed in the 16 to 22 year old range.

    Solve that massive drop off and you solve a huge amount of the issues.

    Invest in more local development officers to help clubs improve standards, provide financial support to clubs to help them hold on to players after they leave school.

    Lots of things that should be done..
    How do you solve that?
    Investment in what? Work, beer, women always has affected that age grade.
    Yes more development officers would help but its more different competition formats and different game formats being used to have more clubs and more players retained in that age grade.


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    #58
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    What would you want in a revamp of the league system and do you want revamp at junior levels as well as senior as theres many issues in the junior leagues not just AIL.

    I'm not sure to be honest. I've only played social rugby which was mostly affected by numbers more than anything.

    I'd like to see an investment in development officers for schools/clubs, I think this time around the RWC and with Ireland playing at such a high level is a good time to try capitalise on building the game and playing numbers.

    Player welfare for junior players and senior, availability of more medical staff at games/physios and treatment.

    Something I noticed as well is the college setup. Everything is generally done by SSI for teams, and the league system outside of the top tier is fairly broken. I'm not sure how you fix that though, other than trying to put grants in place for colleges to purchase better equipment but possibly going in and helping lower colleges with training plans and development plans to encourage them to grow the sport and give players an opportunity to play. Keeping players playing in college could lead to them playing with their club after also.


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    #59
    Mc Love
    Registered Users Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    The investment is needed in the 16 to 22 year old range.

    Solve that massive drop off and you solve a huge amount of the issues.

    Invest in more local development officers to help clubs improve standards , provide financial support to clubs to help them hold on to players after they leave school.

    Lots of things that should be done..
    Leinster has the schools system and that has gone well, but they've started to try it in Munster and I think it's better to have a club system in Munster (Limerick) if you play with your school you cant play with your club (unless it has changed), which would have introduced the kids to rugby in the first place.


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    #60
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    I'm not sure to be honest. I've only played social rugby which was mostly affected by numbers more than anything.

    I'd like to see an investment in development officers for schools/clubs, I think this time around the RWC and with Ireland playing at such a high level is a good time to try capitalise on building the game and playing numbers.

    Player welfare for junior players and senior, availability of more medical staff at games/physios and treatment.

    Something I noticed as well is the college setup. Everything is generally done by SSI for teams, and the league system outside of the top tier is fairly broken. I'm not sure how you fix that though, other than trying to put grants in place for colleges to purchase better equipment but possibly going in and helping lower colleges with training plans and development plans to encourage them to grow the sport and give players an opportunity to play. Keeping players playing in college could lead to them playing with their club after also.
    There has been significant investment in development officers over the years. Connacht recently have made partnerships with county councils to hire development officers for the work they put in in schools/clubs to develop more people playing the sport. Other provinces are same.
    SSI do run leagues but i wouldnt say, from experience of refereeing/playing in SSI competitions, the league system is fairly broken.


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    #61
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    There has been significant investment in development officers over the years. Connacht recently have made partnerships with county councils to hire development officers for the work they put in in schools/clubs to develop more people playing the sport. Other provinces are same.
    SSI do run leagues but i wouldnt say, from experience of refereeing/playing in SSI competitions, the league system is fairly broken.

    I started/managed/played for a team at the lower tier of the SSI leagues (development leagues) for two years, and we struggled to get much guidance/input from them personally.


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