Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

IRFU land sale

Options
13

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I think that's what they said they'd do with it. I wonder will it dovetail with the stated intention of creating a semi-pro league from the top echelons of division 1?

    If they p*ss this money away on the AIL, I'll be very annoyed.


  • Options
    #63
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Mc Love wrote: »
    Leinster has the schools system and that has gone well, but they've started to try it in Munster and I think it's better to have a club system in Munster (Limerick) if you play with your school you cant play with your club (unless it has changed), which would have introduced the kids to rugby in the first place.
    They havent started anything like that in Munster.
    It hasnt changed in Munster.
    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    I started/managed/played for a team at the lower tier of the SSI leagues (development leagues) for two years, and we struggled to get much guidance/input from them personally.
    What guidance/input would you have wanted?


  • Options
    #64
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,199 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Former Former wrote: »
    If they p*ss this money away on the AIL, I'll be very annoyed.
    Why?


    I don't think it's earmarked for just one project btw, I was just hypothesising one possible area for some of it.


  • Options
    #65
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Why?


    I don't think it's earmarked for just one project btw, I was just hypothesising one possible area for some of it.

    Because the AIL is done, its time has passed, it will never be viable even as semi-pro. If you're planning for the future, the money needs to go to underage development, facilities, paying down debt. Using a one-off windfall to subsidise the AIL isn't a good way to use the money.


  • Options
    #66
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,607 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    What guidance/input would you have wanted?

    Training plans, development plans for building the team up, even on an administration level in terms of working with the college/students union as to how to assist with running the team/getting setup.

    We were lucky enough that we managed to reach out to a local club who helped us try and get on our feet in terms of grounds and basic equipment. But as far as I'm aware once I stepped away (due to final year commitments) everything collapsed and they haven't trained/played since.

    I know SSI have the leagues (which at the development level didn't really work out as teams didn't want to commit and we ended up just having to organise friendlies between other colleges), and the 7s tournament organised in DCU.

    I just think it's a good way to try and keep players from that 18-22 age bracket playing. More on a social level at the lower leagues as opposed to the Universities that have dedicated sports programmes in place for rugby and full scholarships etc.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Training plans, development plans for building the team up, even on an administration level in terms of working with the college/students union as to how to assist with running the team/getting setup.

    We were lucky enough that we managed to reach out to a local club who helped us try and get on our feet in terms of grounds and basic equipment. But as far as I'm aware once I stepped away (due to final year commitments) everything collapsed and they haven't trained/played since.

    I know SSI have the leagues (which at the development level didn't really work out as teams didn't want to commit and we ended up just having to organise friendlies between other colleges), and the 7s tournament organised in DCU.

    I just think it's a good way to try and keep players from that 18-22 age bracket playing. More on a social level at the lower leagues as opposed to the Universities that have dedicated sports programmes in place for rugby and full scholarships etc.
    SSI are college teams as opposed to the universities which are full clubs.
    They can be good ways to keep people involved. I know i played in these competitions and have refereed them as well.
    From experience of a lot of the colleges i see teams as managed well. Development officers coaching teams. Colleges providing enough support.


  • Options
    #68
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,199 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Former Former wrote: »
    Because the AIL is done, its time has passed, it will never be viable even as semi-pro. If you're planning for the future, the money needs to go to underage development, facilities, paying down debt. Using a one-off windfall to subsidise the AIL isn't a good way to use the money.
    I don't agree with that tbh. There's no room for growth in the game if you don't have an outlet at senior level. We're almost at saturation point in Leinster and although the other provinces are providing an outlet, that will soon get to saturation point too. Even Italy have a semi-pro league below their two full pro teams.


  • Options
    #69
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,438 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Former Former wrote: »
    Because the AIL is done, its time has passed, it will never be viable even as semi-pro. If you're planning for the future, the money needs to go to underage development, facilities, paying down debt. Using a one-off windfall to subsidise the AIL isn't a good way to use the money.
    The AIL would not be subsidised in its current form.

    If I remember right, there were plans to drastically reduce the AIL to one division that was ringfenced (no promo or relegation) and have it operate as a semi-pro league with ~4 teams from each province, with the leagues then reverting to regional based below this.


  • Options
    #70
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I don't agree with that tbh. There's no room for growth in the game if you don't have an outlet at senior level. We're almost at saturation point in Leinster and although the other provinces are providing an outlet, that will soon get to saturation point too. Even Italy have a semi-pro league below their two full pro teams.
    Leinster isnt really at saturation point though and other provinces are far from it.
    awec wrote: »
    The AIL would not be subsidised in its current form.

    If I remember right, there were plans to drastically reduce the AIL to one division that was ringfenced (no promo or relegation) and have it operate as a semi-pro league with ~4 teams from each province, with the leagues then reverting to regional based below this.
    It was going to be less than that as there's only 5 senior clubs in Connacht as it is and Ulster has 12 split evenly between 1B+2A and 2B/C. A semi pro league with equal sides from all provinces would take away from Leinster/Munster clubs who are the dominant forces in club rugby.


  • Options
    #71
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    awec wrote: »
    The AIL would not be subsidised in its current form.

    If I remember right, there were plans to drastically reduce the AIL to one division that was ringfenced (no promo or relegation) and have it operate as a semi-pro league with ~4 teams from each province, with the leagues then reverting to regional based below this.

    There was an article on this the other day, talking about Nucifora and the friendlies the province A teams are going to be playing against the new American team joining the league over there. The clubs rejected it (the AIL revamp) on a few grounds apparently. Things like having no limits on the amount of pro players and other stuff I can't remember that they didn't agree with. Think the IRFU idea was to give the lads that aren't getting regular game time for the provinces more games.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,199 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Leinster isnt really at saturation point though and other provinces are far from it.
    I didn't say it was. I said almost.


  • Options
    #73
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I didn't say it was. I said almost.
    It isnt almost either. Long way to go for that to happen


  • Options
    #74
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,438 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    There was an article on this the other day, talking about Nucifora and the friendlies the province A teams are going to be playing against the new American team joining the league over there. The clubs rejected it (the AIL revamp) on a few grounds apparently. Things like having no limits on the amount of pro players and other stuff I can't remember that they didn't agree with. Think the IRFU idea was to give the lads that aren't getting regular game time for the provinces more games.

    The clubs rejected it but I expect it will be taken out of their hands now.


  • Options
    #75
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I don't agree with that tbh. There's no room for growth in the game if you don't have an outlet at senior level. We're almost at saturation point in Leinster and although the other provinces are providing an outlet, that will soon get to saturation point too. Even Italy have a semi-pro league below their two full pro teams.

    If there's a need for such a league and it's sustainable on its own two feet, then let's get it going.

    Diverting this windfall cash to such a league would be very bad planning.


  • Options
    #76
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,438 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Former Former wrote: »
    If there's a need for such a league and it's sustainable on its own two feet, then let's get it going.

    Diverting this windfall cash to such a league would be very bad planning.
    But not a lot of rugby in Ireland would be sustainable without windfall cash.


    The provinces would never survive without the IRFU pumping money in. Leinster couldn't stand on it's own two feet.



    No reason why a semi-pro league for fringe provincial players to play in could not be successful.


  • Options
    #77
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,199 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    awec wrote: »
    But not a lot of rugby in Ireland would be sustainable without windfall cash.

    The provinces would never survive without the IRFU pumping money in. Leinster couldn't stand on it's own two feet.

    No reason why a semi-pro league for fringe provincial players to play in could not be successful.
    Any sport even. That's why there's state funding of sports. Some will get to a level where they're self-sustaining, and rugby is not far off that. But a gap has developed between the AIL and pro rugby in this country and I don't believe that it's good for the sport. Having a semi-pro league will bridge that gap imo.


  • Options
    #78
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    This would be a great opportunity to get some good infrastructure. It would go a long way to getting clubs facilities upgraded around the country. Pitches, lights even toward Astro pitches. There are govt grants available for various things but you need matching funds to draw down. So if a club needed 100,000 for lights and got a grant the irfu could give 50k with 50% to be paid back as a loan and 50% as a once off grant.
    Obviously I’m pulling figures from my hole but you get the idea.


  • Options
    #79
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    awec wrote: »
    But not a lot of rugby in Ireland would be sustainable without windfall cash.

    The provinces would never survive without the IRFU pumping money in. Leinster couldn't stand on it's own two feet.

    No reason why a semi-pro league for fringe provincial players to play in could not be successful.
    Who plays in this semi pro league and where apart from the unions funds it as a pro/semi pro endeavour? You could/would have to extend the celtic cup for there to be a semi pro league for fringe provincial players but we've already seen plenty criticism of that.
    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Any sport even. That's why there's state funding of sports. Some will get to a level where they're self-sustaining, and rugby is not far off that. But a gap has developed between the AIL and pro rugby in this country and I don't believe that it's good for the sport. Having a semi-pro league will bridge that gap imo.
    Semi pro funded by IRFU/provinces and what else? There has been a substantial gap between AIL and pro rugby for some time.
    salmocab wrote: »
    This would be a great opportunity to get some good infrastructure. It would go a long way to getting clubs facilities upgraded around the country. Pitches, lights even toward Astro pitches. There are govt grants available for various things but you need matching funds to draw down. So if a club needed 100,000 for lights and got a grant the irfu could give 50k with 50% to be paid back as a loan and 50% as a once off grant.
    Obviously I’m pulling figures from my hole but you get the idea.
    Possibly but clubs should be working together with clubs of other sports as well on funding and facilities.


  • Options
    #80
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,601 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    To be fair to everyone involved, this seems like it was quite a prudent piece of financial management from the IRFU.

    Not sure what they paid, but I'd say they made a decent return. The land is currently agrictultural, but they're entitled to 44% of the value of the land if it gets rezoned in the next 10 years (minus fees and what they already got). So if that land pops up again on the market in 9 years time at €100m they'll get another decent chunk out of it.

    They're very probably selling at peak value, and they also seem to have waited to get to a point where they're confident we don't need it. Doubt about training facilities, the long term future of the RDS and club expansion is all gone.

    Where that 27 million goes is a PHD Worthy question of sporting economics. We could for example professionalise our womens team for a few years. We could pump it into schools or clubs. We could give Connacht assistance with stadium development.

    My personal preference is actually that we would be very careful not to be too frivolous with it. The IRFU are doing very well off extraordinary income right now. Things like prize money, Chicago tests and the increased ticket prices and jersey sales they're getting off team success right now. I don't think that is definitely sustainable the assumption that we continue to outperform competitors on the field is a bit nuts. So I'd like the IRFU to hold onto a bit of a warchest. In 4 or 5 years time if we're not doing so well we might need it to hold on to top players.


  • Options
    #81
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,199 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Semi pro funded by IRFU/provinces and what else? There has been a substantial gap between AIL and pro rugby for some time.
    Yes there has. I think I actually said that. Now, what's your proposal to fix this? Because any time anyone makes a suggestion, you're along pdq to shut it down.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    awec wrote: »
    But not a lot of rugby in Ireland would be sustainable without windfall cash.


    The provinces would never survive without the IRFU pumping money in. Leinster couldn't stand on it's own two feet.



    No reason why a semi-pro league for fringe provincial players to play in could not be successful.

    There's no reason it couldn't be successful? There are loads, chiefly that no one wants it.

    But if it's going to be successful, then let's do it. If it needs subvention then great, put it in the budget and cut the money from something else.

    But you cannot spend a one off windfall like this on an ongoing expense like the AIL. That's basic economics.


  • Options
    #83
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Leinster have just had their most successful season ever and you still don't see a full RDS for every game. Thomond Park is mostly empty for dirtracker games.

    A semi-pro league is an insane idea. There's no way it would be sustainable.


  • Options
    #84
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,607 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    I vote for a petition for the IRFU to buy Kielys and rename the ROCK tavern.

    And entry only allowed if wearing a pre 2008 Leisnter jersey, chinos and dubes.


  • Options
    #85
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Who plays in this semi pro league and where apart from the unions funds it as a pro/semi pro endeavour? You could/would have to extend the celtic cup for there to be a semi pro league for fringe provincial players but we've already seen plenty criticism of that.

    Semi pro funded by IRFU/provinces and what else? There has been a substantial gap between AIL and pro rugby for some time.

    Possibly but clubs should be working together with clubs of other sports as well on funding and facilities.

    I’d strongly agree with the last paragraph it bugs me when I see schools and sports clubs with 2 sets of everything and they might be next door and never used at the same time, I’ve often thought govt funding should be targeted at joint ventures.


  • Options
    #86
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,199 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Leinster have just had their most successful season ever and you still don't see a full RDS for every game.

    A semi-pro league is an insane idea. There's no way it would be sustainable.
    So because Leinster don't attract a full 18k to every match, a semi-pro league won't work? Connacht max out at 8k with temporary terraces at each end. Should we close down Connacht because the support isn't there?


  • Options
    #87
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Yes there has. I think I actually said that. Now, what's your proposal to fix this? Because any time anyone makes a suggestion, you're along pdq to shut it down.
    Fix what the gap?
    Talking about semi pro league is crazy considering the provinces dont get "sold out" signs all that often and the club game needs support far more.
    We dont need to be putting in semi pro rugby below the provinces. Enough clubs messed themselves around when money was being thrown around by everyone and allowing semi pro come into equation shouldnt happen because of that as well as support base not being there for it


  • Options
    #88
    Rigor Mortis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,903 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Presumably that crowd will just sit on it for 10 years and a day and save themselves millions.

    That won't happen because they aren't insane.


  • Options
    #89
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,199 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    salmocab wrote: »
    I’d strongly agree with the last paragraph it bugs me when I see schools and sports clubs with 2 sets of everything and they might be next door and never used at the same time, I’ve often thought govt funding should be targeted at joint ventures.
    It actually is. Sports Capital Grant applications have a section about wider availability and the facilities being open to other sports or bodies. I don't know what weight that's given in the final analysis, but it is there on the form. Or it was the last time I saw one.


  • Options
    #90
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,199 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Fix what the gap?
    Talking about semi pro league is crazy considering the provinces dont get "sold out" signs all that often and the club game needs support far more.
    We dont need to be putting in semi pro rugby below the provinces. Enough clubs messed themselves around when money was being thrown around by everyone and allowing semi pro come into equation shouldnt happen because of that as well as support base not being there for it
    Yes. And true to form, you haven't addressed it.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,438 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    It depends on what you define as successful for this semi pro league.

    A league where fringe / A players can play every week at a competitive level (higher than current AIL, below Pro14) that doesn't cost a fortune to run is achievable. If this is what they want, they can probably be successful.

    A league that gets hundreds or thousands through the gates every week? Probably not, but I'm not sure it's a goal.


Advertisement