IRFU land sale

Thrashssacre · 12-11-2018 1:59pm #1

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2018/1112/1010342-irfu-sells-92-acres-of-land-in-dublin-for-27m/

27 million will be great for developing the grass roots game but I feel like this may have been a short sighted move as it’s only a matter of time before leinster outgrow the rds and the revamp seems to be on the long finger

Clareman · 12-11-2018 2:02pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2018/1112/1010342-irfu-sells-92-acres-of-land-in-dublin-for-27m/

27 million will be great for developing the grass roots game but I feel like this may have been a short sighted move as it’s only a matter of time before leinster outgrow the rds and the revamp seems to be on the long finger

if they outgrow the RDS they have the Aviva. Clubs aren't going to generate 27 million for the union so they are right to sell and take the money and hopefully invest it into the game.

Podge_irl · 12-11-2018 2:03pm

If Leinster outgrow the RDS (which I don't really think they are in any danger of doing) then the more obvious next step would be just the Aviva. Not sure there would be any point building a 30k stadium to be honest. Also going out to Newland's Cross for a game would be ****e anyway.

Skid X · 12-11-2018 2:06pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2018/1112/1010342-irfu-sells-92-acres-of-land-in-dublin-for-27m/

27 million will be great for developing the grass roots game but I feel like this may have been a short sighted move as it’s only a matter of time before leinster outgrow the rds and the revamp seems to be on the long finger

The RDS might sell out a few times each year at best, and that's with Leinster doing the double last year.

There is no fanbase being turned away en masse. An improved slightly larger RDS with the Aviva Stadium option a few times a year is the future, not Newlands Cross.

Losty Dublin · 12-11-2018 2:51pm

This land was purchased by the IRFU in the mid 90's when there was a lot of speculation about the direction of the new entity that was professional rugby. There was multiple new stadia for the city (Eircom Park, Dublin Dons, The Arena, Croke Park and a replacement for Lansdowne Road) while land for new club fields was also at a premium, this being a time when the club game was still strong.

Under pressure to do something for the clubs and to secure something for the future, the IRFU purchased farmland in the Newlands Cross area on a wait and see basis. In the end Lansdowne Road was redeveloped so the lands were not required for playing fields as club rugby has diminished somewhat in the city. Now that finances within the game are healthy, the Aviva debts are in good stead and real estate prices are strong it is perhaps a good time to capitalise on the asset.

It is worth pointing out here that the monies realised here will be for the IRFU and not for the professional Pro14 clubs. We are entering a critical era in rugby where players are breaking through; investment is needed long term to ensure that there will be as good as in 10, 20, 30 years time.

arsebiscuits1 · 12-11-2018 2:54pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2018/1112/1010342-irfu-sells-92-acres-of-land-in-dublin-for-27m/

27 million will be great for developing the grass roots game but I feel like this may have been a short sighted move as it’s only a matter of time before leinster outgrow the rds and the revamp seems to be on the long finger

The land has been owned for 25 years. Probably the opposite of short sighted.

Clearly this land was not in the plans for the IRFU. I assume in the next few years there will be some developments in National Sports Campus where the FAI and the GAA both have programs.

Better to wait for the market to favour the sale. Currently house prices seem to be peaking. Sell now for top dollar before being too patient ends up costing a few million

Squidgy Black · 12-11-2018 2:58pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

If Leinster outgrow the RDS (which I don't really think they are in any danger of doing) then the more obvious next step would be just the Aviva. Not sure there would be any point building a 30k stadium to be honest. Also going out to Newland's Cross for a game would be ****e anyway.

We won't be able to use the Aviva as Leinster's sole home ground on a permanent basis, it can certainly be used on a more frequent basis for larger games in the future, but it's generally standard that there's a dedicated international team ground, as well as the fact we ground share with the FAI.

awec · 12-11-2018 3:04pm

It would probably be prohibitively expensive to use Lansdowne road every week.

But Leinster won’t have that problem. They are winning all round them at the moment and still the RDS has thousands of empty seats most weekends.

Podge_irl · 12-11-2018 3:05pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

We won't be able to use the Aviva as Leinster's sole home ground on a permanent basis, it can certainly be used on a more frequent basis for larger games in the future, but it's generally standard that there's a dedicated international team ground, as well as the fact we ground share with the FAI.

We're about several hundred years away form it being an issue anyway, but we would never need it for every game. I doubt we need to shift more than the 2 games we currently do for a while to be honest.

troyzer · 12-11-2018 3:05pm

awec wrote: »

It would probably be prohibitively expensive to use Lansdowne road every week.

But Leinster won’t have that problem. They are winning all round them at the moment and still the RDS has thousands of empty seats most weekends.

Depressingly true.

Squidgy Black · 12-11-2018 3:09pm

I reckon they should build a ground on the Northside instead.

Not that it's needed, I just want to witness the meltdown.

arsebiscuits1 · 12-11-2018 3:09pm

Also, if there were any legitimate concerns about Leinster outgrowing the RDS, then we wouldn't be in advanced plans to redevelop it.

And certainly not for the less that 3k seats they are planning to add to it...

salmocab · 12-11-2018 3:11pm

I’m sure Leinster have plans to increase crowds but realistically it won’t be beyond 20 odd thousand. RDS revamped will hold nearly this and it can be improved in the future. Nothing would kill crowds like having them head out miles from the city.

The Lost Sheep · 12-11-2018 3:27pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2018/1112/1010342-irfu-sells-92-acres-of-land-in-dublin-for-27m/

27 million will be great for developing the grass roots game but I feel like this may have been a short sighted move as it’s only a matter of time before leinster outgrow the rds and the revamp seems to be on the long finger

Leinster arent going to outgrow the RDS. 27 million for grass roots and other areas of game would be great but that site as a place for grass roots and some elite development would have been fantastic.

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

The land has been owned for 25 years. Probably the opposite of short sighted.

Clearly this land was not in the plans for the IRFU. I assume in the next few years there will be some developments in National Sports Campus where the FAI and the GAA both have programs.

Better to wait for the market to favour the sale. Currently house prices seem to be peaking. Sell now for top dollar before being too patient ends up costing a few million

IRFU have developments in Abbotstown already and i think there's further space there allocated to IRFU.
Considering nothings been done with the land for years IRFU didnt have any plans with it which is a great shame

cjt156 · 12-11-2018 3:30pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I reckon they should build a ground on the Northside instead.

Not that it's needed, I just want to witness the meltdown.

I seem to recall that North of the river there is a stadium in existence for the playing of their indigenous games...

stephen_n · 12-11-2018 6:29pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I reckon they should build a ground on the Northside instead.

Not that it's needed, I just want to witness the meltdown.

There are a lot of those people on here.

bilston · 12-11-2018 6:50pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

If Leinster outgrow the RDS (which I don't really think they are in any danger of doing) then the more obvious next step would be just the Aviva. Not sure there would be any point building a 30k stadium to be honest. Also going out to Newland's Cross for a game would be ****e anyway.

Could the other provinces not veto Leinster moving into the Aviva permanently?

troyzer · 12-11-2018 6:56pm

bilston wrote: »

Podge_irl wrote: »

If Leinster outgrow the RDS (which I don't really think they are in any danger of doing) then the more obvious next step would be just the Aviva. Not sure there would be any point building a 30k stadium to be honest. Also going out to Newland's Cross for a game would be ****e anyway.

Could the other provinces not veto Leinster moving into the Aviva permanently?

Why would they do that? It would ultimately benefit the IRFU and by extension the other provinces.

prawnsambo · 12-11-2018 6:57pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Leinster arent going to outgrow the RDS. 27 million for grass roots and other areas of game would be great but that site as a place for grass roots and some elite development would have been fantastic.

That would probably have required the investment of a lot of money into the site. 90 acres is a pretty massive land bank. The cost of developing that would be pretty big I would have thought. Not sure that you'd get the kind of use out of it to justfy both the lost value and the cost of development.

salmocab · 12-11-2018 7:04pm

Leinster won’t be moving into the Aviva and if they do get to the stage(they won’t) where they need a 50,000 seater stadium then why would anyone have an issue with them going into the Aviva?
Irfu don’t need that land it makes sense to sell it now when it’s worth s lot of money

Podge_irl · 12-11-2018 7:11pm

bilston wrote: »

Could the other provinces not veto Leinster moving into the Aviva permanently?

No? On what possible basis?

I mean, the IRFU could say no because it is their stadium and the IRFU is essentially made up of the other provinces so in a roundabout way they could stop it I guess.

Guy:Incognito · 12-11-2018 7:12pm

They could have carved off a chunk to give( long term rent to buy?) to a local club that doesn't have their own ground to build much needed facilities................

Surely the IRFU could see the merits in tapping in to the potential player and fanbase in an area as big as Tallaght.

Neil3030 · 12-11-2018 7:13pm

IRFU firesell 27m of land when negotiating with Joe on his new contract?

Can't be a coincidence....

The Lost Sheep · 12-11-2018 7:14pm

bilston wrote: »

Could the other provinces not veto Leinster moving into the Aviva permanently?

Its not going to happen as not sure anyone would want it.

troyzer wrote: »

Why would they do that? It would ultimately benefit the IRFU and by extension the other provinces.

Its never going to happen but other provinces wouldnt really benefit from such a move.

prawnsambo wrote: »

That would probably have required the investment of a lot of money into the site. 90 acres is a pretty massive land bank. The cost of developing that would be pretty big I would have thought. Not sure that you'd get the kind of use out of it to justfy both the lost value and the cost of development.

A lot of investment would have been required but as a basis for multiple clubs in the area as well as a pro game base etc it would have been very good. Now if money used from sale of land goes to that purpose great but shame to have done nothing with the land in area rugby isnt the strongest in

irishbucsfan · 12-11-2018 7:19pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

IRFU firesell 27m of land when negotiating with Joe on his new contract?

Can't be a coincidence....

Who is Joe?

Oh you mean Lord Newlands?

stephen_n · 12-11-2018 7:22pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They could have carved off a chunk to give( long term rent to buy?) to a local club that doesn't have their own ground to build much needed facilities................

Surely the IRFU could see the merits in tapping in to the potential player and fanbase in an area as big as Tallaght.

The IRFU have been trying to develop a increased base in Tallaght/Clondalkin since that land was bought. I don’t think building a white elephant there would really change that.

Guy:Incognito · 12-11-2018 7:27pm

stephen_n wrote: »

The IRFU have been trying to develop a increased base in Tallaght/Clondalkin since that land was bought. I don’t think building a white elephant there would really change that.

I didn't mean any sort of stadium.

Literally a gift (or sale over a number of years) of enough land that the club could set up on. Develope a couple of pitches and a clubhouse at its own expense.

Having the land is the key for clubs. It allows applications for lottery funding and sports grants. It would give rugby a foothold in Tallaght. Not having any sort of clubhouse, training under a couple of crap lights and having no shower facilities results in large turnover of players. This all stops a club from getting established and growing.

Its in the best interest of the leinster branch and the IRFU to have a proper set up in an area like Tallaght.

Its yourself that was /is with the warriors is it not? You should know more than most the hardship of training on bits of land in Bolbrook with battery powered lights and no proper facilities. That's not a way to build a club.

stephen_n · 12-11-2018 7:32pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I didn't mean any sort of stadium.

Literally a gift (or sale over a number of years) of enough land that the club could set up on. Develope a couple of pitches and a clubhouse at its own expense.

Having the land is the key for clubs. It allows applications for lottery funding and sports grants. It would give rugby a foothold in Tallaght. Not having any sort of clubhouse, training under a couple of crap lights and having no shower facilities results in large turnover of players. This all stops a club from getting established and growing.

Its in the best interest of the leinster branch and the IRFU to have a proper set up in an area like Tallaght.

Well in theory that sounds good, but it would depend I’m sure on access and how much said land would be worth commercially. At 300,000 an acre, that is a substantial amount of money.

Guy:Incognito · 12-11-2018 7:33pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Well in theory that sounds good, but it would depend I’m sure on access and how much said land would be worth commercially. At 300,000 an acre, that is a substantial amount of money.

Is that not what the IRFU are all about though? Rugby growth and development in Ireland?

Plus, it wouldn't be actually spending money. It'd just be taking in less on a sale.

ted1 · 12-11-2018 7:34pm

salmocab wrote: »

Leinster won’t be moving into the Aviva and if they do get to the stage(they won’t) where they need a 50,000 seater stadium then why would anyone have an issue with them going into the Aviva?
Irfu don’t need that land it makes sense to sell it now when it’s worth s lot of money

If Leinster need to build a new stadium I’d hazard a guess and say it’ll be a joint venture with the GAA for Dublin games

Guy:Incognito · 12-11-2018 7:37pm

ted1 wrote: »

If Leinster need to build a new stadium I’d hazard a guess and say it’ll be a joint venture with the GAA for Dublin games

Jesus, I'd hope not. The pitch was lost in the middle of croke Park. It was like being in a ground with a running track.

ted1 · 12-11-2018 7:37pm

Also it could be worth a lot more. There’s a deal for 44m if it gets removed withing 10 years.

ted1 · 12-11-2018 7:41pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Jesus, I'd hope not. The pitch was lost in the middle if croke Park. It was like being in a ground with a running track.

A Retractable lower tier could be used or something similar

scooby77 · 12-11-2018 7:50pm

€27 million initially! From indo:
"However, if the land is re-zoned in the next 10 years the IRFU will be entitled to an additional payment equal to 44pc of the market value of the lands at that date, minus the initial purchase price, and subject to certain minimum payments."

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/hibernia-reit-acquires-over-90-acres-from-the-irfu-for-27m-37518073.html

Sounds like could be worth more. Hardly any accountants/property development type heads on a rugby thread such as this who'd guesstimate a future figure??? :-)

Guy:Incognito · 12-11-2018 7:53pm

Presumably that crowd will just sit on it for 10 years and a day and save themselves millions.

ted1 · 12-11-2018 8:24pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Presumably that crowd will just sit on it for 10 years and a day and save themselves millions.

It can be rezoned without any desire by them.

Guy:Incognito · 12-11-2018 8:30pm

ted1 wrote: »

It can be rezoned without any desire by them.

Why would authorities just rezone private land, against the will of its owners, for no reason?

Unless someone is gaining financially of course...........

Squidgy Black · 12-11-2018 8:33pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Presumably that crowd will just sit on it for 10 years and a day and save themselves millions.

Vacant site tax will make it less likely, they'll have to pay 3% tax every year of the market value of the site if it's lying vacant, as of next year.

Probably why the IRFU sold up now.

stephen_n · 12-11-2018 8:49pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Is that not what the IRFU are all about though? Rugby growth and development in Ireland?

Plus, it wouldn't be actually spending money. It'd just be taking in less on a sale.

I think the €27 million will help grow rugby in Ireland hugely. Creating new club grounds is not really that important in terms of that happening. There are plenty of clubs in Dublin with grounds of their own, who are struggling to get new members. How does having another club help develop the game? Tallaght RFC already has land as far as I’m aware? So is it Clondalkin you’d be thinking of, or an entirely new club?

ted1 · 12-11-2018 9:01pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why would authorities just rezone private land, against the will of its owners, for no reason?

Unless someone is gaining financially of course...........

Because there’s a housing crisis. Once rezoned they can then apply a vacant land tax and force development

Guy:Incognito · 12-11-2018 9:21pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Tallaght RFC already has land as far as I’m aware? ?

Nope. Playing on council pitch (tymon) , with a lengthy walk from changing facilities (Tallaght community school) .

Training on a council pitch on firhouse Road with a container to change in and a small generator to light the inside of the container and a couple of lights strapped to it that lights an area about a quarter of the size of a pitch but not any of the actual pitch on the site (which is far from anything that could be considered flat), which means all training (4 nights a week between men and women) is on that patch and it's churned to a mud pit within a couple of weeks of the weather turning. Parking is across the road in firhouse community college as well so not on site. If they decide they are not opening the grounds in the evening the only other place is the small housing estate beside the school, and I could see that getting to be a sore point with residents fairly quickly.

Clondalkin are grand. They've 2 pitches and a permanent building with a bar and changing rooms.

Guy:Incognito · 12-11-2018 9:26pm

ted1 wrote: »

Because there’s a housing crisis. Once rezoned they can then apply a vacant land tax and force development

10 years of 3% tax on 27m value would be less than half of what they would have to pay the IRFU.

They may well be planning to build straight away, but then again they might not. They've been sitting on other land there for a while already so it all depends on whether this is the last bit they were after.

stephen_n · 12-11-2018 10:00pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Nope. Playing on council pitch (tymon) , with a lengthy walk from changing facilities (Tallaght community school) .

Training on a council pitch on firhouse Road with a container to change in and a small generator to light the inside of the container and a couple of lights strapped to it that lights an area about a quarter of the size of a pitch but not any of the actual pitch on the site (which is far from anything that could be considered flat), which means all training (4 nights a week between men and women) is on that patch and it's churned to a mud pit within a couple of weeks of the weather turning. Parking is across the road in firhouse community college as well so not on site. If they decide they are not opening the grounds in the evening the only other place is the small housing estate beside the school, and I could see that getting to be a sore point with residents fairly quickly.

Clondalkin are grand. They've 2 pitches and a permanent building with a bar and changing rooms.

I thought Tallaght bought land up in Kiltipper no?

It’s funny Tallaght used to share that pitch in Tymon with the warriors. Changing in the school for matches and also the postal club. I’m surprised they didn’t follow the warriors down the same route of renting off another club. Worked out far better for them.

salmocab · 12-11-2018 10:07pm

stephen_n wrote: »

I thought Tallaght bought land up in Kiltipper no?

It’s funny Tallaght used to share that pitch in Tymon with the warriors. Changing in the school for matches and also the postal club. I’m surprised they didn’t follow the warriors down the same route of renting off another club. Worked out far better for them.

Yeah I thought they’d got land up kiltipper alright although I did hear there was a lot of work to be done.

Getting land anywhere big enough for pitches and a clubhouse these days would be a big ask financially. Whilst I wouldn’t object to irfu giving Tallaght a hand in anyway I’d imagine it would result in other clubs looking for things too. It may set a precedent.

Guy:Incognito · 12-11-2018 11:46pm

salmocab wrote: »

Yeah I thought they’d got land up kiltipper alright although I did hear there was a lot of work to be done.

Getting land anywhere big enough for pitches and a clubhouse these days would be a big ask financially. Whilst I wouldn’t object to irfu giving Tallaght a hand in anyway I’d imagine it would result in other clubs looking for things too. It may set a precedent.

The kiltipper thing fell through a few years back.

I think the opportunity was there with this land being a relatively unique situation. I'm not sure how many other pockets of land they have around the country.

If it had been done as a long term sale I can't see anyone having a legitimate complaint. Surely anyone in rugby would rather see a club getting settled over land being sold externally . From a selfish point of view I'm sure lads would rather have nice dressing rooms and a bar over a long walk from a school or getting changed at the side of a pitch when visiting.:)

stephen_n wrote: »

It’s funny Tallaght used to share that pitch in Tymon with the warriors. Changing in the school for matches and also the postal club. I’m surprised they didn’t follow the warriors down the same route of renting off another club. Worked out far better for them.

Yeah there's been various things mooted but nothing much came of any of them. Maybe a return to Tallaght in a joint venture on a nice plot somewhere would be best for the warriors

just the small matter of the land first ............

Mary's was a good move for them alright, I was surprised at the start though. Pitches seem to be closed a lot in winter. If lads spit too much in training the pitches are unplayable down there

Losty Dublin · 13-11-2018 1:54am

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Vacant site tax will make it less likely, they'll have to pay 3% tax every year of the market value of the site if it's lying vacant, as of next year.

Probably why the IRFU sold up now.

The site is currently used as farmland and is exempt from the vacant site tax.

Losty Dublin · 13-11-2018 2:15am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Nope. Playing on council pitch (tymon) , with a lengthy walk from changing facilities (Tallaght community school)

Training on a council pitch on firhouse Road with a container to change in and a small generator to light the inside of the container and a couple of lights strapped to it that lights an area about a quarter of the size of a pitch but not any of the actual pitch on the site (which is far from anything that could be considered flat), which means all training (4 nights a week between men and women) is on that patch and it's churned to a mud pit within a couple of weeks of the weather turning. Parking is across the road in firhouse community college as well so not on site. If they decide they are not opening the grounds in the evening the only other place is the small housing estate beside the school, and I could see that getting to be a sore point with residents fairly quickly.

Clondalkin are grand. They've 2 pitches and a permanent building with a bar and changing rooms.

With respect but you are playing An Beal Bocht here and not in a good way at that. The current pitch used by the club is across a road from the school and has a traffic light provided. The club has key access to the school gates and changing rooms in the school, which are open at the weekends for a communal gym and hall. Distance wise it's no more lengthy a walk from the changing rooms to pitch side than is seen at many clubs across the country.

As regards the training facilities, they are inadequate but they are no worse off than many other clubs, some of which aren't a million miles away from them. Tallaght RFC have had support from HQ yet they still have struggled to find a long term home base, this being their fourth in about 20 years. While the IRFU should help any club that needs it, I don't think it's entirely fair to extend that help to handing any club a free home pitch when there are other clubs in the city that are lacking a home ground of their own.

ted1 · 13-11-2018 3:58am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

10 years of 3% tax on 27m value would be less than half of what they would have to pay the IRFU.

They may well be planning to build straight away, but then again they might not. They've been sitting on other land there for a while already so it all depends on whether this is the last bit they were after.

Are you factoring the cost of providing the finance fir buying the land? Also the gamble of a market Crash in 11 years ?

ted1 · 13-11-2018 4:00am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The site is currently used as farmland and is exempt from the vacant site tax.

Its 8 km from the city and owner by a REIT which puts it in the councils radar.

Guy:Incognito · 13-11-2018 5:42am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

With respect but you are playing An Beal Bocht here and not in a good way at that. The current pitch used by the club is across a road from the school and has a traffic light provided. The club has key access to the school gates and changing rooms in the school, which are open at the weekends for a communal gym and hall. Distance wise it's no more lengthy a walk from the changing rooms to pitch side than is seen at many clubs across the country. .

I don't see where I said it wasn't across the road, in fact, my words were "parking is across the road......." . Weekend access to changing rooms isn't much good when training is during the week.
Use of any school grounds is at the discretion of a school and could change at any point in the future. Don't see where that can be disputed.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

as regards the training facilities, they are inadequate but they are no worse off than many other clubs, some of which aren't a million miles away from them. Tallaght RFC have had support from HQ yet they still have struggled to find a long term home base, this being their fourth in about 20 years. While the IRFU should help any club that needs it, I don't think it's entirely fair to extend that help to handing any club a free home pitch when there are other clubs in the city that are lacking a home ground of their own.

No one said give the club a free home. Each time it was mentioned I think I said on some sort of rent to buy or long term sale agreement.

Mc Love · 13-11-2018 9:05am

I wonder will they put the money into the club game as it's seriously lacking in terms of promotion and getting fans back/encouraging new fans to join their local rugby club.

IRFU land sale

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