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Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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    #2132
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    charlie14 wrote: »
    A legally binding agreement being required before talks were allowed to proceed would have ensured the political problem was confronted and sorted then rather than what we got.
    A fudge allowing a can to be kicked down the road towards the eleventh hour where there is 95% agreement other than the border issue.

    The entire point of this process is to get a legally binding agreement. You can't take one part of the agreement out in isolation unless you're willing to do the same for British issues.


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    #2133
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 14,889 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    The entire point of this process is to get a legally binding agreement. You can't take one part of the agreement out in isolation unless you're willing to do the same for British issues.


    In which case should negotiations not been stopped immediately when the U.K. took one part of an agreement in isolation - the backstop - and amended their Customs Bill making it illegal for N.I. to be outside of the U.K. customs territory.

    The U.K. clearly isolated the issue of the backstop with that amendment.


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    #2134
    Nate--IRL--
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Nate--IRL--


    charlie14 wrote: »
    In which case should negotiations not been stopped immediately when the U.K. took one part of an agreement in isolation - the backstop - and amended their Customs Bill making it illegal for N.I. to be outside of the U.K. customs territory.

    The U.K. clearly isolated the issue of the backstop with that amendment.

    I read it as a law stating the rest of the UK must be in the same customs arrangement with the EU as NI.

    Nate


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    #2135
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,403 ✭✭✭McGiver


    kuro68k wrote: »
    I really hope there is a united Ireland. I hope Scotland becomes independent soon too.

    The UK is toxic. It needs to be broken up.
    Not the UK. English establishment and constitution (which doesn't exist on paper) are toxic. Federal arrangement would save the day, but the English political class (and English folks in extension as well) just can't coexist in a team environment where they are not the bosses but members. The EU escapade shows that, their "constitutional" arrangement shows that, their foreign policy shows that, their politics shows that.


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    #2136
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    charlie14 wrote: »
    In which case should negotiations not been stopped immediately when the U.K. took one part of an agreement in isolation - the backstop - and amended their Customs Bill making it illegal for N.I. to be outside of the U.K. customs territory.

    The U.K. clearly isolated the issue of the backstop with that amendment.

    No because the internal politics of the UK aren't a matter for the EU negotiation team. They know better than anyone that the UK government can repeal that law as easy as they made it.


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    #2137
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,038 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    McGiver wrote: »
    Not the UK. English establishment and constitution (which doesn't exist on paper) are toxic. Federal arrangement would save the day, but the English political class (and English folks in extension as well) just can't coexist in a team environment where they are not the bosses but members. The EU escapade shows that, their "constitutional" arrangement shows that, their foreign policy shows that, their politics shows that.

    I've heard it said that one reason they hate the EU is that they cannot dominate it and they are not at all keen on the "equal partners" aspect. If it was a British construct ie the 'British European Union' with its HQ in London, they would be totally in favour of it and wouldn't hear a word said against it.


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    #2138
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    McGiver wrote: »
    kuro68k wrote: »
    I really hope there is a united Ireland. I hope Scotland becomes independent soon too.

    The UK is toxic. It needs to be broken up.
    Not the UK. English establishment and constitution (which doesn't exist on paper) are toxic. Federal arrangement would save the day, but the English political class (and English folks in extension as well) just can't coexist in a team environment where they are not the bosses but members. The EU escapade shows that, their "constitutional" arrangement shows that, their foreign policy shows that, their politics shows that.
    You are of course entitled to your opinion.But you seem to be "tarring everyone with the same brush".Not all "english folks"agree with the mess the tory government has gotten Britain into-one good thing that will come out of this is the people of Britain can see what a bunch of self serving,selfish,incompetent fools the tories are..


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    #2139
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,518 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    You are of course entitled to your opinion.But you seem to be "tarring everyone with the same brush".Not all "english folks"agree with the mess the tory government has gotten Britain into-one good thing that will come out of this is the people of Britain can see what a bunch of self serving,selfish,incompetent fools the tories are..

    I wouldn't be so optimistic.

    Labour haven't done anything to indicate they would handle this better. In fact, Corbyn seems petrified at the thought.


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    #2140
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    BREAKING in the FT

    EU offers London compromise over NI backstop, May expected to indicate acceptance next week.

    https://www.ft.com/content/ee75a230-dde7-11e8-9f04-38d397e6661c

    Told yeh, you don't get briefings like that unless something is up.

    16 MINUTES AGO

    Right, so the EU's concession is that it will treat NI exactly like it intended to from the start, but now the rest of the UK must also agree to be in a more limited form of backstop? Wow, the EU really sold us out there. The UK really put one over on us by binding themselves even more closely to the EU than even the EU was insisting on to make the backstop work.

    NI specific backstop still exists, the UK is playing with the optics by including a limited UK wide element. NI is still not treated the same as the UK.


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    #2141
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 14,889 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Nate--IRL-- wrote: »
    I read it as a law stating the rest of the UK must be in the same customs arrangement with the EU as NI.

    Nate


    I read it as an amendment to the U.K. Customs Bill which made no mention of the E.U. Only U.K Customs Territories.


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    #2142
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The earlier news about Financial Services contained bits about what a deal might look like

    Currently the EU can scrap an equivalence designation within 30 days.
    And AFAIK these services only account for a quarter of the UK-EU trade in financial services.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-financial-services/uk-eu-close-to-brexit-deal-on-financial-services-uk-official-idUSKCN1N639U


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    #2143
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    flutered wrote: »
    it will not be the queens highway any longer, all highways will be paddys

    And as citizens in Ireland with a UI one assumes they'd have the same rights, 12th July parade on O'Connell Street anyone?


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    #2144
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 14,889 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    No because the internal politics of the UK aren't a matter for the EU negotiation team. They know better than anyone that the UK government can repeal that law as easy as they made it.


    I would have great doubts the U.K. government will find repealing that amendment as easy as they found making it.


    The internal politics of the U.K. may or may not matter to the E.U. negotiations team. But by not then it is nothing much other than farce to proceed with such negotiations based on a Chinese Wall principle when the U.K.. amends legislation in total contradiction to what the E.U. say they believe the U.K. agreed too on a backstop.


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    #2145
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    And as citizens in Ireland with a UI one assumes they'd have the same rights, 12th July parade on O'Connell Street anyone?

    They would have to apply for a permit and if the authorities are convinced that the organisers can carry out the event without causing problems, then why not?


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    #2146
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    under what versions of Brexit will I be able to live up north and become non tax resident anywhere (with a day in Switzerland)


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    #2147
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    charlie14 wrote: »
    I would have great doubts the U.K. government will find repealing that amendment as easy as they found making it.


    The internal politics of the U.K. may or may not matter to the E.U. negotiations team. But by not then it is nothing much other than farce to proceed with such negotiations based on a Chinese Wall principle when the U.K.. amends legislation in total contradiction to what the E.U. say they believe the U.K. agreed too on a backstop.

    Indeed this entire thing may be a farce but if it all goes wrong the EU can hold it's hands up and say we tried our best


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    #2148
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    They would have to apply for a permit and if the authorities are convinced that the organisers can carry out the event without causing problems, then why not?


    Oh yeah, just like the Love Ulster parade in 2006, I don't see much difference in opinions after 12 years, Ireland isn't ready for a UI yet.


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    #2149
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    The compromise would involve giving firmer assurances to the UK about the prospect of it as a whole remaining in a customs union with the EU for a period after Brexit.

    However, EU and Irish sources say the original EU plan for the Irish backstop must also remain in the withdrawal agreement as a final fail-safe, a proposal so far rejected by London and opposed by the DUP.....
    ....
    A report in the Financial Times suggests that the EU may now be prepared to go a bit further and may include some outline details of the proposed EU-UK customs union in the formal withdrawal agreement.
    The Irish Times de spins the financial times interpretation.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/more-backstop-guarantees-for-london-under-consideration-by-eu-1.3683414?mode=amp&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


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    #2150
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    More IT incompetence from the country that reckons they can cobble together an e-border in less time than some software companies take to issue patches.


    The UK guberment has an Android app that can use NFC to read your passport so EU citizens can register to stay.

    It won't work on older phones. Or Apple or Windows or Blackberry. So it's 50:50 it it will read your passport. Then again given the repeated cock-ups by the UK over residency rights passing the first hurdle doesn't mean the rest of the system works.

    Voting is optional. If there's a hard Brexit getting residency rights isn't.


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    #2151
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Oh yeah, just like the Love Ulster parade in 2006, I don't see much difference in opinions after 12 years, Ireland isn't ready for a UI yet.

    Oh come now, there would be a huge difference between the love ulster parade and a potential July 12th celebration in a UI, for one thing there is much less construction material lying around on O'Connel Street.

    In seriousness though, unification is the only credible way forward for Ireland. We can't continue to allow ourselves to be tied to the UK. Ending the British presence on this island would be a huge benefit to our country.


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    #2152
    brickster69
    Registered Users Posts: 5,410 ✭✭✭brickster69


    What can the EU do other than block trade if the UK goes back on its word/agreement either way?

    Don't think Germany would be too chuffed about that idea considering the UK buys 30% of it's total exports and represents 20% of the total EU - EU exports.

    Aside from that it is against WTO rules on trade which would result in global sanctions against the EU.

    All roads lead to Rome.



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    #2153
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,049 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    More IT incompetence from the country that reckons they can cobble together an e-border in less time than some software companies take to issue patches.


    The UK guberment has an Android app that can use NFC to read your passport so EU citizens can register to stay.

    It won't work on older phones. Or Apple or Windows or Blackberry. So it's 50:50 it it will read your passport. Then again given the repeated cock-ups by the UK over residency rights passing the first hurdle doesn't mean the rest of the system works.

    Voting is optional. If there's a hard Brexit getting residency rights isn't.

    You're being more than a little disingenuous here. This is a technical limitation they can't do anything about. The app needs NFC. Apple don't allow apps to use NFC so there's nothing they can do about that. And by older phones, according to the article, that means phones that don't have NFC. You can hardly call them incompetent because the app needs a technology Apple won't let them use and some phones don't have. It would be like calling the NTA incompetent because leap card top ups have the very same limitation.


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    #2154
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,113 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    brickster69 wrote: »
    What can the EU do other than block trade if the UK goes back on its word/agreement either way?

    Don't think Germany would be too chuffed about that idea considering the UK buys 30% of it's total exports and represents 20% of the total EU - EU exports.

    Aside from that it is against WTO rules on trade which would result in global sanctions against the EU.
    Are you quoting somebody or having a hypothetical argument with yourself?


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    #2155
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    brickster69 wrote: »
    What can the EU do other than block trade if the UK goes back on its word/agreement either way?

    Don't think Germany would be too chuffed about that idea considering the UK buys 30% of it's total exports and represents 20% of the total EU - EU exports.

    Aside from that it is against WTO rules on trade which would result in global sanctions against the EU.

    Without wanting to presume to speak for the other poster, I think they may have ment the imposition of tarrif and non-tarrif barriers to trade with the UK rather than an outright embargo.

    The integrity of the Single Market is more important to Germany than trade with the UK. This point seems to have escaped brexit acolytes, but it has not escaped German industry. If the UK cannot accept a workable (for workable read based on existing arangements) trade deal with the EU, then the UK gets no trade deal with the EU. It really cannot be made any simpler than that.


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    #2156
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,569 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    brickster69 wrote: »
    What can the EU do other than block trade if the UK goes back on its word/agreement either way?

    Don't think Germany would be too chuffed about that idea considering the UK buys 30% of it's total exports and represents 20% of the total EU - EU exports.

    Aside from that it is against WTO rules on trade which would result in global sanctions against the EU.


    You are throwing out statistics here without clarifying what they are or where you are getting them from. Are you saying that the UK represents 30% of exports for Germany?


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    #2157
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,403 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Strazdas wrote: »
    I've heard it said that one reason they hate the EU is that they cannot dominate it and they are not at all keen on the "equal partners" aspect. If it was a British construct ie the 'British European Union' with its HQ in London, they would be totally in favour of it and wouldn't hear a word said against it.
    Which is an irony, because the UK was very influential member in the EU. Which other member got so much many special perks and opt-outs? Which other member created something large akin to the Single Market?


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    #2158
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,403 ✭✭✭McGiver


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    You are of course entitled to your opinion.But you seem to be "tarring everyone with the same brush".Not all "english folks"agree with the mess the tory government has gotten Britain into-one good thing that will come out of this is the people of Britain can see what a bunch of self serving,selfish,incompetent fools the tories are..
    I don't, but the polls show that at least 30% English folks fall into this category. About 30% don't and are mostly sane and decent. And about 30% don't give a crap.
    But as I said the folks are an extension of the toxic political class, political system, constitution and I forgot to mention also media. These are the key factors.


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    #2159
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,133 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    An earlier poster asked about the importance of time delay on agri exports. Putting aside the milk that does a tour across the ROI/NI border, dairy shouldn't be too affected. Most dairy products are processed here so exports would be skim, whole milk and casein powders. These have at least a 12 month shelf life. Cheddar too is not time critical. Meats however are more critical.

    BTW, the effect on cheddar seems to be about 10% on price.


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    #2160
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Enzokk wrote: »
    You are throwing out statistics here without clarifying what they are or where you are getting them from. Are you saying that the UK represents 30% of exports for Germany?

    30% would be an exaggeration of all German exports but UK is a significant trading partner

    https://comtrade.tradingeconomics.com/comtrade/share?r=deu&c=0000&v=treemapmarkets&t=2&title=


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    #2161
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    You're being more than a little disingenuous here. This is a technical limitation they can't do anything about. The app needs NFC. Apple don't allow apps to use NFC so there's nothing they can do about that. And by older phones, according to the article, that means phones that don't have NFC. You can hardly call them incompetent because the app needs a technology Apple won't let them use and some phones don't have. It would be like calling the NTA incompetent because leap card top ups have the very same limitation.
    It actually was pulled from a post on evoting.
    But it shows the power and influence of the UK where iphone have 50% market share.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46043668
    The Home Office has also signed a £91m contract with French company Sopra Steria to set up computer terminals at 56 local libraries around the UK to help those without smartphones, or without the necessary digital skills, to apply to stay in the UK.


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