Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Tell me how · 01-11-2018 2:08pm

Home office reigning in Caroline Nokes comments on rights-to-work checks now as well.

On phone so can't link.

I'd say even the clocks in West Minister are wrong at this stage.

Akrasia · 01-11-2018 2:09pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think we should have a giant 12th parade up O'Connell Street with orange light-up spinning bowler hats and Union Jack sashes for everyone. Why the feck not?

Excuse for another national holiday and huge piss-up.

Yay, a Love Ulster riot every year!!!

Great exercise for the local unemployed youths

Tell me how · 01-11-2018 2:11pm

Spook_ie wrote:

Our constitution guarantees them the right to hold Irish or British citizenship or both, remember that GFA works both ways

It does......until there is a UI.

The GFA also lays out the holding of a unity referendum when the likelihood of most people in the north wanting to join Ireland is real.

Spook_ie · 01-11-2018 2:15pm

Tell me how wrote: »

You can have that. No problem. In Coventry.

You'd deny however many 000's of people in the North their rights whilst the government enshrines the rights of however many 00's of travellers, that'll go down well

Tell me how · 01-11-2018 2:16pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

You'd deny however many 000's of people in the North their rights whilst the government enshrines the rights of however many 00's of travellers, that'll go down well

No. They can do it. Just that it shouldn't be a national holiday.

Way to conflate two issues though...

trellheim · 01-11-2018 2:17pm

Question Time tonight

From Clacton on Sea so likely Brexit heavy and given the week Universal Credit and the budget

Liz Truss : Con, Treasury minister
Andy McDonald Lab Shad Transport
Ann McElvoy Economist Editor
Shappi Korsandi Author
Kate Andrews Institute for Economic affairs.

The first four are ok but the IEA are dodgy ...

Zubeneschamali · 01-11-2018 2:18pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

You'd deny however many 000's of people in the North their rights

It is obvious that a United Ireland will enshrine the right of Unionists in exactly the same way the GFA enshrines the rights of Nationalists today.

And the DUP vote will go UP in a UI as there will be more Taigery and Rome Rule to resist.

If you don't want the DUP in the Dail and possibly holding the balance of power, you don't want a United ireland.

RobMc59 · 01-11-2018 2:20pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Spook_ie wrote:

Our constitution guarantees them the right to hold Irish or British citizenship or both, remember that GFA works both ways

It does......until there is a UI.

The GFA also lays out the holding of a unity referendum when the likelihood of most people in the north wanting to join Ireland is real.

As someone previously mentioned the situation with the NHS,stamp duty on house purchases and different vehicle taxation rates could be a real stumbling block to a UI.

10000maniacs · 01-11-2018 2:21pm

kuro68k wrote: »

I really hope there is a united Ireland. I hope Scotland becomes independent soon too.

The UK is toxic. It needs to be broken up.

Britain is not toxic, but it's Tory government is dysfunctional, and unfortunately the Tories are the last party on earth to handle a referendum on leaving the EU. A wolf guarding a piece of meat.
David Cameron cried like a baby when the Queen spoke as Gaeilge at Dublin Castle in 2011, and it seemed like a new era between the Tories and the Irish was coming into play, but how could we predict that just a few years later, the very same Cameron would play poker with the Good Friday Agreement, lose and leave the card table.
Reckless, catastrophic and moronic.

Spook_ie · 01-11-2018 2:21pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It is obvious that a United Ireland will enshrine the right of Unionists in exactly the same way the GFA enshrines the rights of Nationalists today.

<snipped>
.

Not according to some who would basically outlaw any 12th of July celebrations or at least ship them out of a united Ireland.

Tell me how · 01-11-2018 2:22pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

And the DUP vote will go UP in a UI as there will be more Taigery and Rome Rule to resist.

None of this will happen. If it was going to, there wouldn't talk of a UI in the GFA as they focus would be on maintaining the current system eternally.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

And the DUP vote will go UP in a UI as there will be more Taigery and Rome Rule to resist.

I enjoy discussion/debate. You obviously don't want to go that way.

You should get off Boards and go enjoy the dying embers of the British Empire. It is happening, denying it will not make it stop. (And the ones hastening it's demise are those who claim its best days are only just beginning).

LeinsterDub · 01-11-2018 2:23pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

As someone previously mentioned the situation with the NHS,stamp duty on house purchases and different vehicle taxation rates could be a real stumbling block to a UI.

We are slowly moving towards a NHS style system. The other two could be harmonised over a decade or more.

Tell me how · 01-11-2018 2:25pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

As someone previously mentioned the situation with the NHS,stamp duty on house purchases and different vehicle taxation rates could be a real stumbling block to a UI.

It certainly won't happen overnight, or necessarily be easy and straightforward. And there will also be many in the south who may vote against it because of the potential cost burden on our existing system.

But, it is more likely to happen than not, and particularly so when most of the UK doesn't care whether they hold on to NI or not.

LeinsterDub · 01-11-2018 2:25pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Not according to some who would basically outlaw any 12th of July celebrations or at least ship them out of a united Ireland.

Lucky Ireland is a liberal democracy with protections for minorities so those petty begrudgers wouldn't get any were

Zubeneschamali · 01-11-2018 2:27pm

Tell me how wrote: »

You should get off Boards and go enjoy the dying embers of the British Empire.

My Catholic grandparents were burnt out of their home in Belfast by Loyalists in the 1920s. I am not a Unionist or carrying a flag for Unionism.

I am pointing out obvious facts about any future United Ireland - it will include the DUP and all their voters, they are not going to be happy about it, and they are not going to leave or abandon their traditions any more than nationalist voters did after partition.

Tell me how · 01-11-2018 2:42pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am pointing out obvious facts about any future United Ireland - it will include the DUP and all their voters, they are not going to be happy about it, and they are not going to leave or abandon their traditions any more than nationalist voters did after partition.

I do not agree that it is factual to suggest that unionists celebrating the United Kingdom or he monarchy will become part of our constitution should a UI come about.

I have already said that unionists will need and deserve support in being part of such a country but not as 'unionists' per say.

It is an entirely different circumstance to the nationalists in Northern Ireland by virtue of the fact that 2 countries had some form of claim on the territory.

Sam Russell · 01-11-2018 2:48pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

My Catholic grandparents were burnt out of their home in Belfast by Loyalists in the 1920s. I am not a Unionist or carrying a flag for Unionism.

I am pointing out obvious facts about any future United Ireland - it will include the DUP and all their voters, they are not going to be happy about it, and they are not going to leave or abandon their traditions any more than nationalist voters did after partition.

The DUP are not the only Unionist Party in the North. They are not that old as a party either. They could disappear just as quickly as saner voices rise up to represent Unionism. The economy will drive them towards a better lot for NI, and if that is a united Ireland, then so be it.

Remember, Loyalists are Loyal to the Crown, but more so to the Half-Crown.

bilston · 01-11-2018 2:58pm

Aaron Banks to face a criminal investigation

steddyeddy · 01-11-2018 3:01pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

It seems the Home Office is now challenging Irish nationals born in Northern Ireland to prove they have an entitlement to live in Northern Ireland i.e. the UK.

I can see this ending VERY badly:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/31/home-office-tells-northern-irish-woman-to-prove-right-to-live-in-belfast?CMP=share_btn_tw

It's a blatant breech of the GFA.

The general sentiment in Britain towards Northern Ireland, Irish and unionist is that they're nothing but trouble.

Thargor · 01-11-2018 3:07pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/01/home-office-caroline-nokes-eu-checks-immigration-brexit-employers-right-to-work

Backtracking and issuing corrections all over the shop now, this is a daily occurrence nowadays, none of them seem to have the slightest clue what's going on.

kalych · 01-11-2018 3:08pm

Tell me how wrote: »

I do not agree that it is factual to suggest that unionists celebrating the United Kingdom or he monarchy will become part of our constitution should a UI come about.

I have already said that unionists will need and deserve support in being part of such a country but not as 'unionists' per say.

It is an entirely different circumstance to the nationalists in Northern Ireland by virtue of the fact that 2 countries had some form of claim on the territory.

I think your comment is off the mark, check out the official position on the joint Irish-British parliamentary task force on this, specifically paragraph 7.16.3 "Recognising the British identity on the island":

https://webarchive.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/implementationofthegoodfridayagreement/jcigfa2016/brexit-and-the-future-of-ireland.pdf

prawnsambo · 01-11-2018 3:09pm

bilston wrote: »

Aaron Banks to face a criminal investigation

This could be a lot bigger than it looks on the surface. Especially the 'other crimes' that are mentioned. There's a strong feeling on the other side of the Atlantic that there will be similar happenings after election day.

Kermit.de.frog · 01-11-2018 3:32pm

FT suggesting noises are that the EU is prepared to move on Northern Ireland backstop and that Barnier is under pressure to do so.

https://twitter.com/MikeTQUB/status/1058001427774214150

Hence the optimism.

swampgas · 01-11-2018 3:35pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

FT suggesting noises are that the EU is prepared to move on Northern Ireland backstop and that Barnier is under pressure to do so.

https://twitter.com/MikeTQUB/status/1058001427774214150

Hence the optimism.

I'll believe it when Barnier says it. Otherwise it's just spin.

keane2097 · 01-11-2018 3:37pm

Wishful thinking. We would obv just veto it.

lawred2 · 01-11-2018 3:41pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

FT suggesting noises are that the EU is prepared to move on Northern Ireland backstop and that Barnier is under pressure to do so.

https://twitter.com/MikeTQUB/status/1058001427774214150

Hence the optimism.

that's claptrap - why now would the EU change tack?

The FT has reported quite a few stories now which have been quickly dismissed by EU officials.. Why would a joint story with the Telegraph be any different...