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Mens Rights Thread

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  • Options
    #3752
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    BBFAN wrote: »
    I thought this thread was about mens rights? All that seems to be in here is articles or tweets about women?
    "Positive discrimination" in favour of women very often means discrimination against men so can be relevant.


  • Options
    #3753
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,127 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    At least Trump got one back for the team today with Horseface, bet the #believeher gang won't be too happy about their go fund me donations being used to pay Trumps legal bill.


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    #3754
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    BAI upholds in part complaint against 2FM Eoghan McDermott Show for asking Dee Forbes who she would like to kick in testicles
    A complaint against the Eoghan McDermott Show on 2FM has been upheld in part by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland.

    A listener complained about a segment featured on McDermott’s afternoon entertainment show on March 8, 2018 in which the presenter asked the Director General of RTE, Dee Forbes, who she would like to kick in the testicles.

    According to the BAI, the listener found the comment “offensive and discriminatory towards men and was of the view that it promoted violence against men” and he felt that it was “insensitive and unjustified”.
    https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/radio/bai-upholds-in-part-complaint-against-2fm-eoghan-mcdermott-show-for-asking-dee-forbes-who-she-would-like-to-kick-in-testicles-37425936.html


  • Options
    #3755
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,127 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    We need to make it an offence to be offended.


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    #3756
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    Here's the latest batch of gender-related hashtags I have noticed trending for anyone interested (I know some are not)
    (Aside: I'm not on Twitter 24/7 of course and don't look back at lists for when I wasn't on)

    #ShowYourStripes
    A lot if not most of the messages relating to this related to the #20x20 campaign
    A call to action for Irish Society. Play your part in increasing every part of Women in Sport by 20% participation, attendance, coverage, governance, sponsorship. #showyourstripes #cantseecantbe #20x20
    https://twitter.com/CoghlanFiona/status/1051744507614629888
    https://twitter.com/SportsJOEdotie/status/1051734102502719488
    https://twitter.com/leona_maguire/status/1051739731766247424

    #MadamPolitician
    https://twitter.com/lisa_pereira/status/1052265998492082177

    Not sure if it trended, but I came across an article on this in the Irish Examiner
    National Women’s Enterprise Day, which aims to help women in business to take their ideas global
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/lifestyle/features/womens-enterprise-day-go-forth-and-be-successful-876477.html

    #WearItPink
    Breast Cancer Now
    @breastcancernow ‏
    We're the UK's largest breast cancer charity - and through our research we believe that, by 2050, everyone who develops breast cancer will live.

    #WOTYA18
    Women of the year awards
    https://twitter.com/irishtatler/status/1053732211982245894


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    #3757
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Imagine your sport and how you play it is so **** you have to get a national program going to try and increase the viewership.

    Spending all this time on the PR trying to push this and then they have the likes of Cora Staunton who seems to be the flavor of the month constantly in the indo. Especially after the crap up in Mayo and how when it suited her and the girls that walked out with her they tried to character assassinate the manager.


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    #3758
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    There are some big tech companies now giving women engineers and sales staff free management / project lead training in the background so when a promotion comes up , they're automatically the best candidate above any man who may have paid for similar on their own. Diversity by force it seems.


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    #3759
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    There are some big tech companies now giving women engineers and sales staff free management / project lead training in the background so when a promotion comes up , they're automatically the best candidate above any man who may have paid for similar on their own. Diversity by force it seems.

    So what, if women are so weak they need the extra help then let them have it. Most men should know that the world is a harsh place that will kick you and keep you down.

    The only person you can trust to look after your business is yourself.


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    #3760
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Calhoun wrote: »
    So what, if women are so weak they need the extra help then let them have it. Most men should know that the world is a harsh place that will kick you and keep you down.

    The only person you can trust to look after your business is yourself.

    Shouldn't that logic/advice be given to women instead of this tokenism/discrimination.


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    #3761
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Shouldn't that logic/advice be given to women instead of this tokenism/discrimination.

    Yah but you know that's like pissing in the wind.


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    #3762
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    No link but caught a piece on the UK news about a council strike because of gender “equal pay”, so here is me thinking I thought it was illegal for there not to be equal pay. So it turns out they are comparing Bin”men” to cleaners where bin”men” get a couple of quid more per hour and they want this equalised
    Relative to the Tesco situation , there would seem to be imo more of a disparity between the 2 jobs here, one is primarily an indoor job while the other is an outdoor job, or even with equipment one involves moving about heavy loads, dealing with traffic and other hazards etc. I’d expect the outdoor job to pay a premium.

    Im not sure if the unions even believe their arguments and are just using “equality” to extract more cash which is a no lose situation for them. However in the broader context if every gender oriented job was treated this way then it would mean a devaluing of hard work that only men apparently want to do? It could ironically also mean that more men in this case will go after council cleaning jobs. So what next? childcare workers should be paid the same as prison officers?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #3763
    Maxpfizer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭Maxpfizer


    silverharp wrote: »
    No link but caught a piece on the UK news about a council strike because of gender “equal pay”, so here is me thinking I thought it was illegal for there not to be equal pay. So it turns out they are comparing Bin”men” to cleaners where bin”men” get a couple of quid more per hour and they want this equalised
    Relative to the Tesco situation , there would seem to be imo more of a disparity between the 2 jobs here, one is primarily an indoor job while the other is an outdoor job, or even with equipment one involves moving about heavy loads, dealing with traffic and other hazards etc. I’d expect the outdoor job to pay a premium.

    Im not sure if the unions even believe their arguments and are just using “equality” to extract more cash which is a no lose situation for them. However in the broader context if every gender oriented job was treated this way then it would mean a devaluing of hard work that only men apparently want to do? It could ironically also mean that more men in this case will go after council cleaning jobs. So what next? childcare workers should be paid the same as prison officers?

    Saw this during the week as well (maybe Tuesday evening) and they had an interview with one of the organizers.

    The interviewer actually asked her about the point that they are comparing different jobs so they were comparing things like a care worker to a janitor etc. Basically, jobs traditionally done by women vs jobs traditionally done by men.

    Her answer was that they want "equal pay for work of equal value".

    Of course it makes sense that this HAS to be their answer. One of the biggest issues with the "pay gap" is that they don't compare like for like.

    So if you work for the council in their IT department then the "value" of your work needs to be compared to a primary school teacher and the pay needs to be adjusted accordingly.

    I just don't get how they intend to establish the "value" of the work.

    In the case of Tesco, for example, would the people working in the warehouse not rather work on the check out if it's going to be the same money? Surely the additional 2 or 3 pounds an hour works like an incentive to encourage people to go for the more difficult job?

    It could be interesting going forward if you have a situation where nobody wants to do the more dangerous or stressful or physical jobs because you can be paid the same to sit in an office or at a check out.

    I guess at least this is their new line of attack. Sure, the jobs are objectively different but the subjective "value" of the work is the same, according to us, so we should all be paid the same.

    I understand the desire to erase gender roles from society but I don't think anyone is stopping to consider whether or not those gender roles might be good or beneficial for society.

    Didn't it used to be the case that traditionally a family of mother, father and 2 to 3 children could get by on the income of just the father?

    So now our society is "progressing" in such a way that now both parents need to hold down full time jobs to survive.

    Is the plan for the future to devalue the work done by the father to the extent that the mother needs to be the main "breadwinner" to sustain a parents and 2 to 3 kids family?


  • Options
    #3764
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    More of this "positive discrimination" PC bull****

    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-45987987/linda-liukas-hello-ruby-and-the-magic-of-coding

    So just for girls.

    Christ, can you imagine if it were reversed ...


  • Options
    #3765
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    More of this "positive discrimination" PC bull****

    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-45987987/linda-liukas-hello-ruby-and-the-magic-of-coding

    So just for girls.

    Christ, can you imagine if it were reversed ...

    As a male IT professional, I think its good. It's not discriminating against boys, its encouraging more girls to consider the profession, which has a shortage of people generally. So this is not creating opportunities for girls by taking them from boys. She has set up a group for girls, but on the video you can also clearly see boys participating in her other activities.


  • Options
    #3766
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    As a male IT professional, I think its good. It's not discriminating against boys, its encouraging more girls to consider the profession, which has a shortage of people generally. So this is not creating opportunities for girls by taking them from boys. She has set up a group for girls, but on the video you can also clearly see boys participating in her other activities.

    Let's setup something and promote it for all? Or is that crazy talk.

    No one is saying women are taking opportunity for boys but it's just another constant drone about getting the women into stem.


  • Options
    #3767
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Let's setup something and promote it for all? Or is that crazy talk.

    No one is saying women are taking opportunity for boys but it's just another constant drone about getting the women into stem.

    Society needs more people in STEM. Encouraging more women to get into STEM professions is good for us all and does not discriminate against men, who on average are far more interested in STEM anyway. The person in this video is a woman who wants to personally highlight to girls that they can be coders too. Nothing wrong with that and fair play to her.

    This is entirely different to, say, the gender quotas for Irish political parties' candidates.


  • Options
    #3768
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Society needs more people in STEM. Encouraging more women to get into STEM professions is good for us all and does not discriminate against men, who on average are far more interested in STEM anyway. The person in this video is a woman who want's to highlight to girls that they can be coders too. Nothing wrong with that and fair play to her.

    This is entirely different to, say, the gender quotas for Irish political parties' candidates.

    does everything have to be gender though, why not class and family background?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Options
    #3769
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,820 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    There are some big tech companies now giving women engineers and sales staff free management / project lead training in the background so when a promotion comes up , they're automatically the best candidate above any man who may have paid for similar on their own. Diversity by force it seems.

    thats unusual, because we got that in our place but everyone did it. Sure there were women there but there was also men.

    As a confident self sufficient man I see zero issues with promoting more women into management positions.

    Why would i ? Its been traditionally men there by attrition and networking historically.


  • Options
    #3770
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    silverharp wrote: »
    does everything have to be gender though, why not class and family background?

    Why not indeed. If you want to personally encourage more people into STEM based on their class and family background, go for it. But I see no reason to criticise this woman for what she personally chose to do to encourage girls (and boys!) to try coding. On the contrary.


  • Options
    #3771
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Why not indeed. If you want to personally encourage more people into STEM based on their class and family background, go for it. But I see no reason to criticise this woman for what she personally chose to do to encourage girls (and boys!) to try coding. On the contrary.

    I don't see that anyone is criticising her personally as such , but we live in a megaphone culture and "women in x" is all one tends to hear about via the media. If one has the IQ to be in STEM, chances are they are there anyway or something else equally challenging, does it really matter if a particular girl becomes a dentist or works in IT? there are probably complicated reasons why people tend to congregate around different professions.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Options
    #3772
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Society needs more people in STEM. Encouraging more women to get into STEM professions is good for us all and does not discriminate against men, who on average are far more interested in STEM anyway. The person in this video is a woman who wants to personally highlight to girls that they can be coders too. Nothing wrong with that and fair play to her.

    This is entirely different to, say, the gender quotas for Irish political parties' candidates.

    So would you be in favor of gender quotas in IT organizations? Is that the next step in this line of thinking?

    I suppose my thinking on this is probably a bit skewed do to the current Irish media presence we are seeing allot of the girls being pushed to the front which is all well and good but some balance at times would be great.

    Saw a coder dojo article in papers a few days ago and was mainly focused on girls there.


  • Options
    #3773
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Calhoun wrote: »
    So would you be in favor of gender quotas in IT organizations? Is that the next step in this line of thinking?

    No, I would not be. I am in favour of encouraging more girls to have a go at STEM. I'd be equally in favour of, say, encouraging more men to be primary school teachers. But encouragement doesn't have to and shouldn't include quotas.


  • Options
    #3774
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Society needs more people in STEM. Encouraging more women to get into STEM professions is good for us all and does not discriminate against men, who on average are far more interested in STEM anyway. The person in this video is a woman who wants to personally highlight to girls that they can be coders too. Nothing wrong with that and fair play to her.

    This is entirely different to, say, the gender quotas for Irish political parties' candidates.

    I agree with you, but you have to take general differences in gender (yes they exist) into account.
    As a population you will always get more boys into STEM than girls - not saying boys that do it are better than the girls that do!! - just saying there will by and large be more.

    So lets imagine Google is hiring 2 new engineers (im simplifying the numbers here)

    Due to sheer stats we will most likely have more men apply for the job.
    So again, lets simplify lets imagine we have 80 men and 20 women.

    Now Google have to hire at least 50% women here, so 1 woman 1 man at least.

    Now if the 2 best people are a man and a woman or 2 women ... great no problem the best people got the job - but lets say the two best are 2 men which wouldn't be too far fetched as most applicants are men.

    That 2nd best guy loses his spot to someone who wasn't as good.


    The best people should get the jobs - full stop.
    Black, brown, gay, straight, purple, cross dresser .. whatever.

    Irony is feminists want equality and that type of **** above isn't equality.


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    #3775
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    What you're describing there is quotas, which I've already said I disagree with.


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    #3776
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Irony is feminists want equality and that type of **** above isn't equality.

    There are plenty of feminists who disapprove of quotas btw


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    #3777
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Society needs more people in STEM. Encouraging more women to get into STEM professions is good for us all and does not discriminate against men, who on average are far more interested in STEM anyway. The person in this video is a woman who wants to personally highlight to girls that they can be coders too. Nothing wrong with that and fair play to her.

    This is entirely different to, say, the gender quotas for Irish political parties' candidates.

    Society also needs more nurses, in fact there is a chronic shortage. Why is there no similar programme to get men into nursing?


  • Options
    #3778
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Calhoun wrote: »
    So would you be in favor of gender quotas in IT organizations? Is that the next step in this line of thinking?

    I suppose my thinking on this is probably a bit skewed do to the current Irish media presence we are seeing allot of the girls being pushed to the front which is all well and good but some balance at times would be great.

    Saw a coder dojo article in papers a few days ago and was mainly focused on girls there.

    Funnily enough I took my daughter who was about 14 at the time and her friend who was about 12 to a coder dojo and it was ridiculous how they were ignored except for one organiser who kept saying stuff like "you can make the web page girly pink". Painful....


  • Options
    #3779
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    professore wrote: »
    Society also needs more nurses, in fact there is a chronic shortage. Why is there no similar programme to get men into nursing?

    The video referred to and the person involved is one individual who took the initiative to do her own thing on encouraging girls (but not just girls) to try coding. If you feel so strongly about it, why don't you initiate your own "programme" for male nurses?
    professore wrote: »
    Funnily enough I took my daughter who was about 14 at the time and her friend who was about 12 to a coder dojo and it was ridiculous how they were ignored except for one organiser who kept saying stuff like "you can make the web page girly pink". Painful....

    I've done a voluntary coding class in my kids' primary school and drew no distinction between girls and boys. The best work was done by one of the girls. Nevertheless, there was far less interest from girls in it and it was about 3:1 boys and girls in the class.


  • Options
    #3780
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    professore wrote: »
    Funnily enough I took my daughter who was about 14 at the time and her friend who was about 12 to a coder dojo and it was ridiculous how they were ignored except for one organiser who kept saying stuff like "you can make the web page girly pink". Painful....

    How long ago was this? and do you think they would get away with it in 2018? I hope you didn't let that stop them from learning though.


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    #3781
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,544 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    What you're describing there is quotas, which I've already said I disagree with.

    These quotas are already in place. Applications to the major Irish research funding bodies from universities are required to have at least 50% women, regardless of the breakdown of the applications submitted internally. It is, in effect, much easier for a woman to get a grant.


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