Dublin - BusConnects

devnull · 24-10-2018 12:09pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Infrastructure needs to be built first then everyone can see the benefit straight away and people get fully onboard with the idea.
For example,
Stage 1:
we start off with the n4. Fully expand the qbc’s all the way up to Hueston, and up the quays. That won’t take much. Bus gates at Palmerston and kilmainham.
Introduce tag on tag off for the n4 routes and any orbital routes that would bisect it plus Luas.
Use this as the shining light for everyone else in dublin.
Stage 2:
We pick the next easiest route, m11, m1?

Stage 3:
All the while developing radial bus corridors in the sw area.

Only when the infrastructure is in place will bc work, if you try and put the re-org in place first people will say it’s made things worse and wont see the infrastructure project as part of the overall bc plan, they’ll just see it as a fix to the bc fiasco.

The problem often is in Ireland though, the only way to get infrastructure to be built and to be put in place, is to make the case overwhelming so something has to be fixed rather than stating what the infrastructure may allow us to do in the future.

bk · 24-10-2018 12:13pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Anyone who has witnessed these kind of network changes before in detail will know that getting things right can end up taking for ever.
....

The 184 has no increase in weekday frequency, but capacity was halved by switching to single decks, with repeated reports of people not being able to use it. This kind of thing is basic.

LOL you say it things are slow to change, but yet just a few days after complaints about single decekers on the 184, NTA/GA have today announced that they are putting the Double Deckers back on the route.

https://twitter.com/GoAheadIreland/status/1054717046884249600

Seems very quick and responsive to me and pretty much proves my point.

LXFlyer · 24-10-2018 12:28pm

bk wrote: »

LOL you say it things are slow to change, but yet just a few days after complaints about single decekers on the 184, NTA/GA have today announced that they are putting the Double Deckers back on the route.

https://twitter.com/GoAheadIreland/status/1054717046884249600

Seems very quick and responsive to me and pretty much proves my point.

Should they have made that kind of basic mistake in the first place?

Either way, it was a relatively easy fix - GAI haven’t taken over the full complement of routes yet - they have spare capacity that will now need realigning between routes in due course, as it appears they may have too many single decks given this change and the fact that they can’t use them on the 59 as planned, as they’re too long to turn at Killiney terminus.

Meanwhile the 75 is daily reporting buses late, missing or full and leaving people behind.

I don’t see that as the same as cutting capacity as much as the BusConnects plan does to and from the city centre. It’s a massively different kettle of fish.

Once you’ve done it it’s going to be rather more difficult to reinstate as the buses taken away will have been reallocated to orbital services.

tom1ie · 24-10-2018 12:56pm

devnull wrote: »

The problem often is in Ireland though, the only way to get infrastructure to be built and to be put in place, is to make the case overwhelming so something has to be fixed rather than stating what the infrastructure may allow us to do in the future.

Ah Jesus though, that doesn’t make it the right way to go about business or the most cost effective.
We need to get over this mentality that “it’s ireland we have our own special way of doing things”.
**** that, give me the tried and tested world (especially Asian) norms.

24-10-2018 2:21pm

bk wrote: »

LOL you say it things are slow to change, but yet just a few days after complaints about single decekers on the 184, NTA/GA have today announced that they are putting the Double Deckers back on the route.

https://twitter.com/GoAheadIreland/status/1054717046884249600

Seems very quick and responsive to me and pretty much proves my point.

Reversing an inconsequential and tiny operational change 'proves your point' that NTA/Operators are quick to change in general?

That may make sense in your head, but it doesn't outside it.

Stephen15 · 24-10-2018 2:21pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Should they have made that kind of basic mistake in the first place?

Either way, it was a relatively easy fix - GAI haven’t taken over the full complement of routes yet - they have spare capacity that will now need realigning between routes in due course, as it appears they may have too many single decks given this change and the fact that they can’t use them on the 59 as planned, as they’re too long to turn at Killiney terminus.

Meanwhile the 75 is daily reporting buses late, missing or full and leaving people behind.

I don’t see that as the same as cutting capacity as much as the BusConnects plan does to and from the city centre. It’s a massively different kettle of fish.

Once you’ve done it it’s going to be rather more difficult to reinstate as the buses taken away will have been reallocated to orbital services.

You can blame the NTA for that one they were the ones who decide to allocate single deckers to the 184. Go Ahead has now gotten permission to allocate double deckers to it at peak times so the issue has been sorted for the moment regarding that. Go-Ahead now have 53 of their 125 fleet in service so far.

Go-Ahead are now discussion about what routes they will give a single decker allocation too. I'd also agree it was a mistake to buy buses too long for the 59. I think they should allocate them to same routes DB used to allocate them too such the 59, 63, 104 111, 114 and the 185.

LXFlyer · 24-10-2018 2:57pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

You can blame the NTA for that one they were the ones who decide to allocate single deckers to the 184. Go Ahead has now gotten permission to allocate double deckers to it at peak times so the issue has been sorted for the moment regarding that. Go-Ahead now have 53 of their 125 fleet in service so far.

Go-Ahead are now discussion about what routes they will give a single decker allocation too. I'd also agree it was a mistake to buy buses too long for the 59. I think they should allocate them to same routes DB used to allocate them too such the 59, 63, 104 111, 114 and the 185.

I do absolutely blame the NTA for that decision, and for not checking whether the model of single deck was suitable or not to use on a route before deciding on the number of buses ordered. You check the infrastructure out first!

This kind of stuff is basic.

The timetables the NTA have published and handed out at the weekend still have mistakes on them - there seems to be no proofing of them.

It is Network Direct phase 1 all over again. That was shambolic and so has this rollout been.

bk · 24-10-2018 5:08pm

LXFlyer, first you were going on about taking changes taking years to make and gave the example of the 184.

You were literally proven wrong on that one with a super quick turn around and a fix put in place within days. Completely proving you wrong. But instead of admitting you are wrong, you are now blathering on about how they should not have made the mistakes in the first place. Just admit it, you've been proven wrong.

I've been genuinely impressed by the rollout of GoAhead's services. Sure there have been bumps along the way, any major change in transport services always involves mistakes and teething issues. How I judge a company and organisation and company is how quick they react to issues and how quickly they fix them.

And GA/NTA seem to be doing a great job in this regard, they seem to be actually reading these threads on boards and very quickly fixing issues that are raised. I'm seriously impressed and it is a breath of fresh area from the DB changes and lack of communication in the past.

There are a lot of people who would love to see GA/NTA stumble and fail. But so far it seems to be going very well and they are very quickly fixing any issues that arise.

I'd expect the same speed and responsiveness to BusConnects changes and any issues that arise from that.

tom1ie · 24-10-2018 5:19pm

bk wrote: »

LXFlyer, first you were going on about taking changes taking years to make and gave the example of the 184.

You were literally proven wrong on that one with a super quick turn around and a fix put in place within days. Completely proving you wrong. But instead of admitting you are wrong, you are now blathering on about how they should not have made the mistakes in the first place. Just admit it, you've been proven wrong.

I've been genuinely impressed by the rollout of GoAhead's services. Sure there have been bumps along the way, any major change in transport services always involves mistakes and teething issues. How I judge a company and organisation and company is how quick they react to issues and how quickly they fix them.

And GA/NTA seem to be doing a great job in this regard, they seem to be actually reading these threads on boards and very quickly fixing issues that are raised. I'm seriously impressed and it is a breath of fresh area from the DB changes and lack of communication in the past.

There are a lot of people who would love to see GA/NTA stumble and fail. But so far it seems to be going very well and they are very quickly fixing any issues that arise.

I'd expect the same speed and responsiveness to BusConnects changes and any issues that arise from that.

Its great that GA/NTA have made this change it shows that they do listen to customers.
However, bc without its associated infrastructure in place will be doomed to fail.
The problem being once the politicians see the failure of bc without the radial routes they'll exploit that window of opportunity to increase their own standing in the community. This makes sense, i dont know how you can argue against this?

bk · 24-10-2018 5:30pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Its great that GA/NTA have made this change it shows that they do listen to customers.
However, bc without its associated infrastructure in place will be doomed to fail.
The problem being once the politicians see the failure of bc without the radial routes they'll exploit that window of opportunity to increase their own standing in the community. This makes sense, i dont know how you can argue against this?

I'd say the same to you. I don't understand why you can't understand how crazy it is to argue that we have to wait ten years for infrastructure changes with a rubbish Network Direct network, that is already bursting at the seems.

You really don't need infrastructure changes to redesign a network when you are significantly increasing the number of buses available. At the very least you'd want to undo the network direct changes.

I think perhpas you aren't personally aware what happened with Network Direct and that is the key part you are missing. ND was a big reduction in numbers of buses, drivers, routes and frequency. It was a big cut back to the bare minimum of what was needed during the recession. We really can't continue with that.

The radial routes make absolute sense as do the orbital routes. These are the core parts of BC and we need those today, not 10 years from now.

Stephen15 · 24-10-2018 5:33pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

I do absolutely blame the NTA for that decision, and for not checking whether the model of single deck was suitable or not to use on a route before deciding on the number of buses ordered. You check the infrastructure out first!

This kind of stuff is basic.

The timetables the NTA have published and handed out at the weekend still have mistakes on them - there seems to be no proofing of them.

It is Network Direct phase 1 all over again. That was shambolic and so has this rollout been.

To be fair to the NTA they could have ended with more problems if they had of ordered single decker buses which were too small. Tbh I would say no offence to you there but you're slightly over reaction calling the whole transfer of services to GAI from DB a shambles.

Ok there have been some issues some of which are to be expected when there are changes. The main issue has been regarding the 75 where the NTA have shown off their naivety by re-routing it through Dundrum which was a very stupid decision if you ask me and it wouldn't surprise if it's what's causing the majority of the issues atm with the 75. There are also some issues with real time but then again it's not like real time for DB services is always accurate either.

The first phase was done very badly with the 45a/b, 59, 63/a and 75/a I would agree with out of date timetables not being replaced and no real time for nearly two days but the second phase with 111, 184 and 185 has been better with updated timetables at stops and no problems with real time. We'd never get anywhere if we delayed/didn't do changes to the system because there may be potential teething problems.

tom1ie · 24-10-2018 7:22pm

bk wrote: »

I'd say the same to you. I don't understand why you can't understand how crazy it is to argue that we have to wait ten years for infrastructure changes with a rubbish Network Direct network, that is already bursting at the seems.

You really don't need infrastructure changes to redesign a network when you are significantly increasing the number of buses available. At the very least you'd want to undo the network direct changes.

I think perhpas you aren't personally aware what happened with Network Direct and that is the key part you are missing. ND was a big reduction in numbers of buses, drivers, routes and frequency. It was a big cut back to the bare minimum of what was needed during the recession. We really can't continue with that.

The radial routes make absolute sense as do the orbital routes. These are the core parts of BC and we need those today, not 10 years from now.

Bk, where are all these busses going to go? There isn't the road space for them. They'll be stuck in traffic.

L1011 · 25-10-2018 8:24am

tom1ie wrote: »

Bk, where are all these busses going to go? There isn't the road space for them. They'll be stuck in traffic.

We still have less buses than before the crash, with enhanced bus priority measures in places already and more to come

tom1ie · 25-10-2018 10:03am

L1011 wrote: »

We still have less buses than before the crash, with enhanced bus priority measures in places already and more to come

What bus priority measures have been put in place in the areas I quoted before and what more are to come, bar the BC infrastructure that I am saying needs to be built yesterday?

L1011 · 01-11-2018 9:37am

tom1ie wrote: »

What bus priority measures have been put in place in the areas I quoted before and what more are to come, bar the BC infrastructure that I am saying needs to be built yesterday?

The double bus lane on the Quays is the biggest change there and has had a major impact

There's also been improvements elsewhere, minor stuff that all adds up. Cat and Cage buslane had a huge impact on services there, Whitehall Church hugely improved by a few bits of plastic

CatInABox · 01-11-2018 10:39am

L1011 wrote: »

Whitehall Church hugely improved by a few bits of plastic

I'd be shocked if those plastic bollards aren't rolled out near every problem junction.

While it's massively improved, there's still work to be done there. They should really CPO some of the car park there and turn it into a traffic light free turn left lane. Cars are actually already using it as as such, going in the entrance at the main gates, and then out on Collins Avenue.

Of course, if they do manage to do something with turning left there, then they'd probably have to something with the parking with the row of shops there, and then the lights at Beaumont Rd, so..... nothing will probably happen.

tom1ie · 01-11-2018 2:22pm

L1011 wrote: »

The double bus lane on the Quays is the biggest change there and has had a major impact

There's also been improvements elsewhere, minor stuff that all adds up. Cat and Cage buslane had a huge impact on services there, Whitehall Church hugely improved by a few bits of plastic

Yeah agree the double bus lane has had a very positive effect, but that was relatively easy (bar the vested interest groups opposing it) to implement as the road space was already there.
Problem in the sw, as myself and lx flyer are constantly alluding to is, the road space simply isn’t there.
Until the cpo’ing of gardens etc happens and the continuous qbc’s are built into the cc, bc redesign just wont work, in the sw area.

cgcsb · 01-11-2018 3:30pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Yeah agree the double bus lane has had a very positive effect, but that was relatively easy (bar the vested interest groups opposing it) to implement as the road space was already there.
Problem in the sw, as myself and lx flyer are constantly alluding to is, the road space simply isn’t there.
Until the cpo’ing of gardens etc happens and the continuous qbc’s are built into the cc, bc redesign just wont work, in the sw area.

While I agree with the sentiment, simple measures in the City Centre have shown positive impacts even at long distances.

Hypothetical scenario: if George's st/Parliament St and the more central part of the quays were to become bus only, CG was pedestrianized, Stoneybatter and Rathmines given 2 way bus lanes and so on. That has a positive impact even in the south west of the city. Less people will drive to their destination if more destinations are harder to reach by car.

Spanish Eyes · 01-11-2018 3:37pm

On a lighter note, re the problematic SW corridor of Templeogue, Terenure, Harolds X etc. it might be easier to instal bus lanes on stilts above the traffic or vice versa rather than CPO the gardens. :P

Sam Russell · 01-11-2018 3:42pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

On a lighter note, re the problematic SW corridor of Templeogue, Terenure, Harolds X etc. it might be easier to instal bus lanes on stilts above the traffic or vice versa rather than CPO the gardens. :P

Sorting out Harold's Cross Bridge would be a massive help. It would ease Leonard's Corner, which also needs work. As does the illegal parking outside Tescos on the SCR at Leonard's Corner.

A lot of small improvements will all build up to a massive total.

BusConnects will benefit incrementally if it is implemented ASAP, and the more successful it gets, the more will shift from car to bus, which becomes self feeding.

LXFlyer · 01-11-2018 6:38pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Yeah agree the double bus lane has had a very positive effect, but that was relatively easy (bar the vested interest groups opposing it) to implement as the road space was already there.
Problem in the sw, as myself and lx flyer are constantly alluding to is, the road space simply isn’t there.
Until the cpo’ing of gardens etc happens and the continuous qbc’s are built into the cc, bc redesign just wont work, in the sw area.

The southwest is not the issue - it is south central Dublin that has the real problems, and I wish people would stop calling it southwest Dublin as it isn’t. The corridors may have routes serving southwest Dublin but it is the south central area that has daily gridlock.

It is the routes through Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure and Harold’s Cross that suffer the slowest bus speeds in the city by a mile and quite frankly all the tinkering in the world isn’t going to change bus speeds significantly in those areas due to the lack of road space, the narrow villages, and the severe pinch points en route. Add to that the complete lack of any enforcement of existing bus priority measures, delivery trucks parked on clear ways at the height of the morning peak, and peak bus journey times have simply been getting worse every year. They have now reached up to 90 minutes on the 14, 15 and 16 from their respective termini to the city centre in the morning peak, which is scandalous. I don’t think CPO activity will actually make that much difference to bus speeds as they’ll still get hit by the pinch points which aren’t like the cat & cage in any respect before anyone mentions it, as on these routes there are buildings right up to the footpaths. I just don’t see the suggested one way suburban routes being acceptable politically.

The only solution that will make a genuine difference is underground rail.

Tom to correct you regarding adding buses, Dublin Bus have already increased the numbers of buses on those corridors on the 14, 15 and 15b routes all day long, and other routes will be seeing capacity increases in the coming months. It’s needed as buses are already full, but it does mean more buses in the same space.

LXFlyer · 01-11-2018 6:39pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Sorting out Harold's Cross Bridge would be a massive help. It would ease Leonard's Corner, which also needs work. As does the illegal parking outside Tescos on the SCR at Leonard's Corner.

A lot of small improvements will all build up to a massive total.

BusConnects will benefit incrementally if it is implemented ASAP, and the more successful it gets, the more will shift from car to bus, which becomes self feeding.

Most of that is down to lack of enforcement of existing measures - nothing to do with BusConnects.

Spanish Eyes · 01-11-2018 8:08pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Most of that is down to lack of enforcement of existing measures - nothing to do with BusConnects.

More space for PT is absolutely mandatory now.

The lack of enforcement is something else entirely, but I agree with you, very few seem to care about yellow boxes, bus lanes etc. because they know they will get away with it.

Any chance of CCTV and reg recognition, could be done from buses too I reckon.

Sounds too easy doesn't it.

Qrt · 01-11-2018 8:53pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

More space for PT is absolutely mandatory now.

The lack of enforcement is something else entirely, but I agree with you, very few seem to care about yellow boxes, bus lanes etc. because they know they will get away with it.

Any chance of CCTV and reg recognition, could be done from buses too I reckon.

Sounds too easy doesn't it.

Any update on that bill that was to make this easier? I remember there being something, but I can't exactly remember what...

Spanish Eyes · 01-11-2018 8:58pm

Qrt wrote: »

Any update on that bill that was to make this easier? I remember there being something, but I can't exactly remember what...

Contact our Minister for Transport.

Main Phone:
(01) 604 1062
Postal Address:
Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, Leeson Lane, Dublin 2, Ireland D02TR60
Email Address:
minister@dttas.ie (link sends e-mail)
Website URL Address:
http://dttas.ie/about-us/2013/our-minister

Qrt · 01-11-2018 9:13pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Contact our Minister for Transport.

Main Phone:
(01) 604 1062
Postal Address:
Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, Leeson Lane, Dublin 2, Ireland D02TR60
Email Address:
minister@dttas.ie (link sends e-mail)
Website URL Address:
http://dttas.ie/about-us/2013/our-minister

I would but I don't think he knows where he is most of the time.

marno21 · 02-11-2018 1:33am

Qrt wrote: »

I would but I don't think he knows where he is most of the time.

Send him an email with the title "Stepaside Garda Station" and you can be sure it will be read at least.

cgcsb · 02-11-2018 11:59am

To the more pessimistic posters. Small improvements can lead to significant journey time reductions, see cat n cage and the Whitehall junction barriers.

I have a theory that if current rules of the road were enforced, journey times would improve by about 10 minutes across all routes.

At present we have a system with 0% enforcement. If we had 100% enforcement, that in it's self would affect modal shift and improve journey times. The camera enforcement solution is quite cheap and has massive benefits.

schemingbohemia · 02-11-2018 12:21pm

Bus I was on last night, the 26 took 15 minutes to get from Merrion Square to the Quays. Not one single Garda seen, multiple private cars and vans in Bus lanes, blocking yellow boxes and the College Green Bus gate.
That route has bus lanes for the entire journey but given the lack of enforcement are useless.
Use DB own CCTV, give the drivers a fiver for each infringement they "catch" and forward details to AGS and force them to prosecute.

CatInABox · 02-11-2018 2:15pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Use DB own CCTV, give the drivers a fiver for each infringement they "catch" and forward details to AGS and force them to prosecute.

ANPR, and enforcement based on GPS location would make it automatic. If there's car in a bus lane and the bus sees the number plate, the driver should get a €300 fine and a penalty point (two if they bring it to court). That'd end people going into bus lanes overnight.

Dublin - BusConnects

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