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NFL style draft in Irish rugby?

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  • 18-10-2018 7:16am
    #1
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭


    This one came up on Newstalk the other night and I was thinking it probably deserves its own thread.

    The idea is that that every year after the senior cups, there would an IRFU organised NFL style draft where each province would pick a player in turn.

    The order of pricks is determined by the ranking of the province in the previous year meaning that in a normal season you might have this order:

    1. Connacht
    2. Ulster
    3. Munster
    4. Leinster

    Obviously as a Leinster fan I'd be dubious because it quite clearly shafts us the most, but it would spread the goods slightly from an overflowing academy system.

    The main downside? The provinces would become pointless. You could be born, raised and learn to play rugby in Leinster but then picked for Connacht. It erodes the value of the ground up approach which has made the provinces so successful.

    I also think it could lead to a slippery slope of players losing attachment to their province and eventually to their country and more would go abroad for the money.

    Thoughts?


«13

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    #2
    Rigor Mortis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,899 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    One of the great strengths of Irish teams is pride of place. It is consistently referred to by opposing teams and commentators. We would be crazy to give this away.


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    #3
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Rigor Mortis wrote: »
    One of the great strengths of Irish teams is pride of place. It is consistently referred to by opposing teams and commentators. We would be crazy to give this away.

    We're already giving it away by making strategic loans/permanent trades from Leinster to shore up Munster.

    First Carbery and now McCarthy. What's to stop Munster from saying they're a bit weak at loosehead and sure Ireland have two Lions there, can we have one?


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    #4
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,986 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    troyzer wrote: »

    The order of pricks is...

    Jeez that's a bit harsh on those young lads

    :D


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    #5
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Jeez that's a bit harsh on those young lads

    :D

    I wonder if that was a Freudian slip.......


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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rigor Mortis wrote: »
    One of the great strengths of Irish teams is pride of place. It is consistently referred to by opposing teams and commentators. We would be crazy to give this away.
    troyzer wrote: »
    We're already giving it away by making strategic loans/permanent trades from Leinster to shore up Munster.

    First Carbery and now McCarthy. What's to stop Munster from saying they're a bit weak at loosehead and sure Ireland have two Lions there, can we have one?

    I agree with Mortis. Right now it's diluting due to necessity, medium to long term though each academy needs to improve as much as possible to limit it.

    The provinces thrive on their local identities, I think it would take away much of the edge to remove that ingredient.


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    #7
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I agree with Mortis. Right now it's diluting due to necessity, medium to long term though each academy needs to improve as much as possible to limit it.

    The provinces thrive on their local identities, I think it would take away much of the edge to remove that ingredient.

    I'm sure Nucifora would prefer if he could handpick the squads for each province. It would certainly be in the national team's interest to stop stacking everyone in Leinster.


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    #8
    stl.ire
    Registered Users Posts: 240 ✭✭stl.ire


    troyzer wrote: »
    We're already giving it away by making strategic loans/permanent trades from Leinster to shore up Munster.

    First Carbery and now McCarthy. What's to stop Munster from saying they're a bit weak at loosehead and sure Ireland have two Lions there, can we have one?

    Transfers and loans really only happen for one reason - the Ireland national team.

    If a talented player is not getting sufficient game time to develop, and another province is short in their position, then these moves happen. That’s why Carbery moved (and Carbery’s development is why McCarthy will get moved), it’s why Conway, Murphy etc moved. A draft would be detrimental to Ireland’s national team so it will never happen. Instead the IRFU seem to want to increase the number of transfers as they can control them.

    As for Leinster, there’s no doubt they are gifting other provinces players right now - then again they have the most central contracts so can’t really complain when the IRFU want something, and it’s not like Leinster haven’t benefited from a Henshaw or Boss from time to time. I’d be very interested to see what happens after the WC if Sean Cronin is close to retirement and Tracey hasn’t developed, Leo should get on the phone about Munster’s Scannell/Marshall or Ulster’s Herring/McBurney!


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    #9
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    troyzer wrote: »
    I'm sure Nucifora would prefer if he could handpick the squads for each province. It would certainly be in the national team's interest to stop stacking everyone in Leinster.
    Yeah, but that takes the pressure off those that have not been getting the best from their academies. It would also likely cause dysfunctional behaviour. Why bother putting the effort into your youth structures and academies if it's just going to be taken off you at a whim?


    And the NFL draft is from college players. Not from their own academies and development structures.


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    #10
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Yeah, but that takes the pressure off those that have not been getting the best from their academies. It would also likely cause dysfunctional behaviour. Why bother putting the effort into your youth structures and academies if it's just going to be taken off you at a whim?


    And the NFL draft is from college players. Not from their own academies and development structures.

    OTB presented it as the schools effectively taking the role of colleges.

    The senior cups would be like bowl games where the players know they have to perform and it'll raise their draft stock.

    Personally, I think it's a load of ****e. But there has to be a less irritating way to spread the wealth then Munster poaching players at the two positions Leinster have the least depth.


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    #11
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,358 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This won't happen.

    I am pretty sure that Ulster, Munster and Connacht would oppose it for some intangible reason, even though they'd ultimately benefit from it in terms of squad strength. Leinster would be strongly against this idea as it pretty much nullifies the advantages they have over other provinces.

    I think what's more likely to happen is recognition that it is not really a level playing field, that the other 3 will never match Leinster and Leinster will ultimately end up being forced to part with players on a more regular basis. Moves from Ulster/Munster/Connacht will be rare compared to moves from Leinster, but that's just a result of the realities of rugby in Ireland.


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    #12
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    awec wrote: »
    This won't happen.

    I am pretty sure that Ulster, Munster and Connacht would oppose it for some intangible reason, even though they'd ultimately benefit from it in terms of squad strength. Leinster would be strongly against this idea as it pretty much nullifies the advantages they have over other provinces.

    I think what's more likely to happen is recognition that it is not really a level playing field, that the other 3 will never match Leinster and Leinster will ultimately end up being forced to part with players on a more regular basis.

    Which is really annoying.

    I wouldn't mind so much if there was a formal structure and Leinster were allowed to designate certain players as untouchable.


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    #13
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    troyzer wrote: »
    OTB presented it as the schools effectively taking the role of colleges.

    The senior cups would be like bowl games where the players know they have to perform and it'll raise their draft stock.

    Personally, I think it's a load of ****e. But there has to be a less irritating way to spread the wealth then Munster poaching players at the two positions Leinster have the least depth.
    Yes. But the schools (and clubs - everyone forgets the clubs) are effectively already in the provincial development structure. It's the province's development officers that oversee the whole thing. And the youth squads that are taken from those schools and clubs and introduced to the system.


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    #14
    stl.ire
    Registered Users Posts: 240 ✭✭stl.ire


    troyzer wrote: »
    Which is really annoying.

    I wouldn't mind so much if there was a formal structure and Leinster were allowed to designate certain players as untouchable.

    There is a formal structure. Ireland at the top then the four provinces below. Leinster are ultimately beholden to Ireland and they don’t need to designate players - if a player isn’t playing enough for Ireland’s liking because Leinster aren’t picking them then they are ‘designated’ for possible transfer. That’s tough to accept but it’s where the IRFU are moving things.


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    #15
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    stl.ire wrote: »
    There is a formal structure. Ireland at the top then the four provinces below. Leinster are ultimately beholden to Ireland and they don’t need to designate players - if a player isn’t playing enough for Ireland’s liking because Leinster aren’t picking them then they are ‘designated’ for possible transfer. That’s tough to accept but it’s where the IRFU are moving things.

    But we're now in a situation in Leinster were if our starting half backs go down, our bench will have zero experience.

    It's robbign from Peter to pay Paul. Carbery should have been a one off in a year before the world cup.

    But taking McCarthy as well?


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    #16
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,358 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    troyzer wrote: »
    Which is really annoying.

    I wouldn't mind so much if there was a formal structure and Leinster were allowed to designate certain players as untouchable.
    It's annoying but it's probably inevitable.

    I am sure Leinster can already deem players untouchable. The likes of James Ryan is never going anywhere. McCarthy is a fringe player at best. Jordi Murphy moved because Leinster's back row is just ridiculous. Carbery moved because he was never getting played at 10.

    I think more moves like this will happen in future. Look at Abdaladze for Leinster A. Porter has literally just broken into the team, Furlong is probably the best in the world in his position. This guys future is not at Leinster. An argument can be made for Caelan Doris as well.

    If things just continue without moves, we're going to end up with one province that's stupidly strong in terms of depth, where great players are wasting time playing A rugby or watching on TV each week, and 3 decent teams that will never really compete for trophies.

    Maybe Leinster should be compensated for it with an extra NIQ spot.


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    #17
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,358 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    troyzer wrote: »
    But we're now in a situation in Leinster were if our starting half backs go down, our bench will have zero experience.

    It's robbign from Peter to pay Paul. Carbery should have been a one off in a year before the world cup.

    But taking McCarthy as well?
    This is pretty normal for most teams, a bench containing either inexperience or mediocrity. The situation Leinster have enjoyed for years is not normal, so my sympathy is limited.

    Leinster still have Sexton and Byrne and 10, and McGrath and JGP at 9. This is still better than most teams.


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    #18
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,283 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Not that I think this has any chance of happening but one of the reasons the American draft system is successful is that the sports are quite insular particularly football. Trying to force a 19 year old Dub to move to Belfast could well see him think nah I’ll just go to college or even take a pro contract abroad. It also discourages Provinces from developing outside of the school system as everyone would just be watching the cup teams.

    Anyway there is zero chance of it happening it’s radio time filler.


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    #19
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    awec wrote: »
    It's annoying but it's probably inevitable.

    I am sure Leinster can already deem players untouchable. The likes of James Ryan is never going anywhere. McCarthy is a fringe player at best. Jordi Murphy moved because Leinster's back row is just ridiculous. Carbery moved because he was never getting played at 10.

    I think more moves like this will happen in future. Look at Abdaladze for Leinster A. Porter has literally just broken into the team, Furlong is probably the best in the world in his position. This guys future is not at Leinster. An argument can be made for Caelan Doris as well.

    If things just continue without moves, we're going to end up with one province that's stupidly strong in terms of depth, where great players are wasting time playing A rugby or watching on TV each week, and 3 decent teams that will never really compete for trophies.

    Maybe Leinster should be compensated for it with an extra NIQ spot.

    That's not a bad idea.
    awec wrote: »
    This is pretty normal for most teams, a bench containing either inexperience or mediocrity. The situation Leinster have enjoyed for years is not normal, so my sympathy is limited.

    Leinster still have Sexton and Byrne and 10, and McGrath and JGP at 9. This is still better than most teams.

    It is normal, but Leinster are better than any other team at developing depth. There should be some reward for that rather than being scalped.
    salmocab wrote: »
    Not that I think this has any chance of happening but one of the reasons the American draft system is successful is that the sports are quite insular particularly football. Trying to force a 19 year old Dub to move to Belfast could well see him think nah I’ll just go to college or even take a pro contract abroad. It also discourages Provinces from developing outside of the school system as everyone would just be watching the cup teams.

    Anyway there is zero chance of it happening it’s radio time filler.

    Agree, it won't happen. It's thought provoking though.


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    #20
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,272 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Would it even be legal?

    It is an utterly atrocious idea either way. Yes, Leinster are losing some backup players to other provinces where they have positions of weakness. But so far it is still reasonably voluntary and Leinster can handle it. Completely destroying the provincial identity will just see us end up like the Welsh regions.


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    #21
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,272 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    troyzer wrote: »
    It is normal, but Leinster are better than any other team at developing depth. There should be some reward for that rather than being scalped.

    Perhaps some kind of trophy...


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    #22
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,358 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    troyzer wrote: »
    That's not a bad idea.



    It is normal, but Leinster are better than any other team at developing depth. There should be some reward for that rather than being scalped.



    Agree, it won't happen. It's thought provoking though.
    They are, but they aren't starting off on a level playing field compared to other teams. So in a way, Leinster absolutely should be developing a lot more players than other teams, it is somewhat inevitable.

    The reward is being the best team in the league. Even if Leinster lost 4 or 5 fringe players they'd still be the best team in the league.


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    #23
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Perhaps some kind of trophy...

    For now. What happens if Sexton and Byrne both go down and we get knocked out of the Heinken cup and lose a rake of games because Noel Reid isn't ready for top flight rugby?
    awec wrote: »
    They are, but they aren't starting off on a level playing field compared to other teams. So in a way, Leinster absolutely should be developing a lot more players than other teams, it is somewhat inevitable.

    The reward is being the best team in the league. Even if Leinster lost 4 or 5 fringe players they'd still be the best team in the league.

    Why aren't we starting off on a level playing field? Compared to Connacht I'd agree, population wise. Munster is a lot less but still has well over a million people and Ulster is nearly the same as Leinster population wise.


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    #24
    2smiggy
    Registered Users Posts: 19,929 ✭✭✭✭2smiggy


    college attendances

    college football and a lesser extent basketball in the the US is a business , with revenue and attendances dwarfing any any professional rugby. The draft at the end is the carrot for the unpaid players (*not technology true, they are on scholarships and i'm sure many hidden bonuses)

    the average attendance is over 50000 for 41 teams playing it, with 18 over 75000. Just looked up a home ticket for Penn States next home game, cheapest is $64 and it has an attendance averaging over 100K. The pre draft college game is a cash cow. Plus you have plenty of lads who never went to college or private schools who turned out to be good players. Where would they fit into a draft


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    #25
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    troyzer wrote: »
    For now. What happens if Sexton and Byrne both go down and we get knocked out of the Heinken cup and lose a rake of games because Noel Reid isn't ready for top flight rugby?



    Why aren't we starting off on a level playing field? Compared to Connacht I'd agree, population wise. Munster is a lot less but still has well over a million people and Ulster is nearly the same as Leinster population wise.

    Off the top of my head:
    - Population.
    - Numbers participating in the game.
    - Number of fee paying schools with full time coaches.


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    #26
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,796 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I know this is a very hypothetical discussion to begin with, but I don't think a draft could comply with EU employment law


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    #27
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    aloooof wrote: »
    Off the top of my head:
    - Population.
    - Numbers participating in the game.
    - Number of fee paying schools with full time coaches.

    I'll give you population but the other two are not inherent advantages Leinster has that can't be done in other provinces.
    Larbre34 wrote: »
    I know this is a very hypothetical discussion to begin with, but I don't think a draft could comply with EU employment law

    Probably not.


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    #28
    2smiggy
    Registered Users Posts: 19,929 ✭✭✭✭2smiggy


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    I know this is a very hypothetical discussion to begin with, but I don't think a draft could comply with EU employment law

    in Joe Duffys voice 'Whoooy ?'


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    #29
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,272 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    troyzer wrote: »
    For now. What happens if Sexton and Byrne both go down and we get knocked out of the Heinken cup and lose a rake of games because Noel Reid isn't ready for top flight rugby?

    Noel Reid will never be ready to be a top flight 10. But he is, at best, third choice and more likely fourth.

    What happened two years ago when Sexton, Carberry and Marsh were all unavailable? Byrne stepped up. Maybe this time it will be Frawley. Or maybe we will have to face the horror of our 3rd to 4th choice outhalf not being amazing just like everyone else.


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    #30
    2smiggy
    Registered Users Posts: 19,929 ✭✭✭✭2smiggy


    troyzer wrote: »
    I'll give you population but the other two are not inherent advantages Leinster has that can't be done in other provinces.

    You can get every one to do a lot more riding, we could catch up in two generations ?


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    #31
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    2smiggy wrote: »
    in Joe Duffys voice 'Whoooy ?'

    well....imagine you came first in class at college and then the worst company in the industry you qualified in just got to pick you and, effectively, owned all rights to you!

    Here people generally get to choose who to go and work for


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